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Palestine discussion

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Why don't we just dispense with the whole "the ends justifies the means" speech and admit that Israel is going to wipe out Gaza because... well... it can, and has legal protection from the US to do so... and that war is atrocious and ugly, and that in order for it to take place innocents will always die.

It really blows my mind how all you arm chair folks on the other side of planet earth can really claim to know so solidly which side you support?

The tribal thinking is beyond my comprehension, honestly.

This idea that we will just keep wiping out lands and peoples until the world is one big harmonious place is so deluded I don't know where to start. Even if Israel colonizes Gaza after it wipes it out, there will still be regions beyond them that will continue to attack them. It is never ending. You have to be prepared to wipe out half the Mid-east to really put a stop to this, and even then it won't work because most of the attacks are coming from non-state actors. So even if you transformed all of the Mid-east into Israel or an Israeli-allied nation, you'd still have tribes within the region fighting each other.

We can't force our polity on the entire planet, it doesn't work. We learned that in Afghanistan. Powers have been trying since Alexander the Great to conquer the region and they just can't. We have failed to win the hearts and the minds of enough people there. Hamas is just a symptom of that problem.

As for Israel itself... Netanyahu's days in office were finished and he knew it. I don't buy for one second that Israel simply had no idea that Hamas was planning a major strike. But Israel sure had the cameras ready to capture it all to manufacture consent. Every war hawk in history creates a military conflict when they are about to be defeated by their own people. I can cite dozens. The timing and lack of response were way too convenient.

Israel was always going to expand into Gaza. It was just a matter of time. And now the IDF is jerking off over whole-sale destruction and slaughter. Hamas had it coming, they are also savages. And now you have millions of innocent people being annihilated like cockroaches because of two groups of extremists.

Honestly if it weren't for US hegemony at the UN, the whole world would've gone into Israel/Gaza and separated these children already, declaring Jerusalem a neutral world heritage site. None of these fucking religious whack jobs should be in control. So I also blame the US for this human disaster. This is the 21st fucking century and jidahists vs. zionists should not be a thing anymore.
 
Foreigner said:
It really blows my mind how all you arm chair folks on the other side of planet earth can really claim to know so solidly which side you support?

The tribal thinking is beyond my comprehension, honestly.
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It's only mindblowing if one expects intelligence from these people.

As for the rest of your post: I have nothing to add. Well put. It's refreshing to see anyone arrive at the obvious truth and sober take on this situation.

In the other thread (why are there two different ones?) you can see partisans from either side gang up on non-partisan me because they're so attached to their stupid bickering - seemingly not even realizing the brutal tragedy of it all.
 
Foreigner said:
This is the 21st fucking century and jidahists vs. zionists should not be a thing anymore.
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The rest of your post aside, there is definitely a false equivalency here. Zionism isn't an ideology of conquest; it's not expansionist in the way jihadism/Islam has always been. Zionism holds as its principle tenet the right to a single homeland for Jews. The validity of this argument is totally up for debate. But the principle reason for antagonism between Zionism and Islam is essentially the same source of antagonism as that between Islam and nearly every culture it comes in contact with. It's less about Israel and more about the clash of a medieval religion and progressive modern values.
 
swilow said:
The rest of your post aside, there is definitely a false equivalency here. Zionism isn't an ideology of conquest; it's not expansionist in the way jihadism/Islam has always been. Zionism holds as its principle tenet the right to a single homeland for Jews. The validity of this argument is totally up for debate. But the principle reason for antagonism between Zionism and Islam is essentially the same source of antagonism as that between Islam and nearly every culture it comes in contact with. It's less about Israel and more about the clash of a medieval religion and progressive modern values.
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Why don't you tell him what you told me? :)
 
nepalnt21 said:
you mean ben gurion was into ethnic cleansing?

muy surprise!
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Yes, I'm afraid he was.

I haven't done a ton of research, but it doesn't take all that much delving into the subject to discover plenty of evidence (in their own words) that the founders of Israel were quite radical in their Zionism. They had no intention of confining Israel to the borders set by the U.N. plan of partition. It was a case of taking what they could initially get to form some kind of a state. Then they would expand as opportunities arose, which they fully expected to come their way. David Ben-Gurion was none too subtle in expressing that. Look at the early Jewish militias and who organized them and what they did.

Israel will not even allow Jewish historians full access to the nation's archives that contain documentation of the abuses perpetrated by early Jewish militias. Albert Einstein co-signed a letter to the New York Times in 1948. It protested against Menachem Begin as someone who represented what it called fascistic tendencies, which he decried. The link below gives the full text of the letter.

 
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swilow said:
G'day mate, Sinai Peninsula...

My point is that Zionism and jihadism are not equivalent. Where would rather live, Iran or Israel? Syria or Israel?
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Iran was on its way to becoming a modern democracy, until Britain and the USA screwed that all up.
 
swilow said:
The rest of your post aside, there is definitely a false equivalency here. Zionism isn't an ideology of conquest; it's not expansionist in the way jihadism/Islam has always been. Zionism holds as its principle tenet the right to a single homeland for Jews. The validity of this argument is totally up for debate. But the principle reason for antagonism between Zionism and Islam is essentially the same source of antagonism as that between Islam and nearly every culture it comes in contact with. It's less about Israel and more about the clash of a medieval religion and progressive modern values.
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Zionism was not - and is not - monolithic. There are various different schools of Zionist thinking. Ben-Gurion spoke of wanting to "smash" the nearby Arab nations and then expand Israel's borders. Read the quote below and draw your own conclusion.

www.azquotes.com

David Ben-Gurion Quote

I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see...
www.azquotes.com www.azquotes.com

"The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill: from the Nile to the Euphrates."

David Ben-Gurion

The quote above sounds to me like a lust for conquest.
 
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I'm just saying the spread of Islam to Judaism and saying in relative terms, the two are incomparable. Islam has spread to become the majority religion in 49 countries. It isn't a missionary religion like Christianity, it is a militant ideology that spreads, as per the divinely revealed commandments of God, by the sword. Zionism, as enunciated by the likes of Theodor Herzl, was more a nationalist movement that had as its primary focus, territory it claimed as its rightful heritage.

I'm not denying that the Jews took territory from the Arabs btw. Just nothing like that taken by Muslims, who continue this conversion by conquest in many areas of the world and which is a threat to every country it enters. Hence we get Islamic terrorism basically everywhere there are Muslims and, despite there being Jewish communities all across the world, we do not get Jewish terrorists.
 
nepalnt21 said:
this pervasive equivocation fallacy is so silly and meaningless... war is atrocious, but that doesn't account for war crimes.
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Both Israel and Hamas have committed war crimes. "War is atrocious" was not the entirety of my post. How trite to hone in on a platitude and make it seem like that's all I had to say. I expounded greatly. Go away with your disingenuity.
 
swilow said:
The rest of your post aside, there is definitely a false equivalency here. Zionism isn't an ideology of conquest; it's not expansionist in the way jihadism/Islam has always been. Zionism holds as its principle tenet the right to a single homeland for Jews. The validity of this argument is totally up for debate. But the principle reason for antagonism between Zionism and Islam is essentially the same source of antagonism as that between Islam and nearly every culture it comes in contact with. It's less about Israel and more about the clash of a medieval religion and progressive modern values.
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Honestly - being 100% real and not trying to be offensive - I don't give one single shit about what textbook Zionism claims that it is. I care about the actions that are Zionist by people who are calling themselves Zionist who say they are doing it in the name of Zionism.

You have to be blind to see that there isn't a radical Zionist element to what Israel is doing. (I say that while not taking Hamas' side at all, before anyone accuses me.)

The UN has called for how many cease fires? How many resolutions sanctioning Israel were attempted over the decades? All blocked by the US. The world of nations seems to know clearly what it thinks about this conflict. People like you who defend Israel have the luxury of a US cock block. The reality is that the Israeli leadership would have been arrested already and charged with crimes against humanity.

The fact that Israel continues to do what it's doing is not evidence of righteousness whatsoever. Not in this instance.
 
Mjäll said:
It's only mindblowing if one expects intelligence from these people.

As for the rest of your post: I have nothing to add. Well put. It's refreshing to see anyone arrive at the obvious truth and sober take on this situation.

In the other thread (why are there two different ones?) you can see partisans from either side gang up on non-partisan me because they're so attached to their stupid bickering - seemingly not even realizing the brutal tragedy of it all.
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The only thing people hate more than their enemy is a moderate or non-partisan refusing to take sides. "If you're not with us then you're against us."

It's amazing how fucking retarded people get over the Israel/Palestine thing... mostly people who have never seen real war in their whole goddamn lives.

Everyone I personally know who has been through war is not cheering for any of this because it horrifies them.

The US deserves to burn for refusing to let the UN resolve this.
 
swilow said:
If he was doing it in the majority of his posts, I would.
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But everyone is expressing the same opinion in the majority if their posts in these two threads.

I don't think you really know. I think you were just kneejerking.
 
Foreigner said:
The only thing people hate more than their enemy is a moderate or non-partisan refusing to take sides. "If you're not with us then you're against us."

It's amazing how fucking retarded people get over the Israel/Palestine thing... mostly people who have never seen real war in their whole goddamn lives.

Everyone I personally know who has been through war is not cheering for any of this because it horrifies them.

The US deserves to burn for refusing to let the UN resolve this.
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I don't know anyone with experience of war, but i can imagine that such people don't treat this war like a football game like many people do.

It's like Israel/Palestine became a forced choice of whether you prioritize Modernity vs Leftism. But no one has to make that choice in order to preserve any legitimacy on any account. Only fools play that game.
 
Foreigner said:
Everyone I personally know who has been through war is not cheering for any of this because it horrifies them.
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I don't see anyone here, and certainly not me, "cheering" for this. The conflict is horrible.

Not having an opinion on whether the conflict is right or wrong, or claiming some elevated neutral stance whereby you amazingly happen to be the correct one and the rest of us are the slavering masses, isn't brave or wise, it's just...not having an opinion for cynical reasons that are are a shit basis for decision making in our demanding and dynamic world.

War is fucking awful and sometimes necessary. In this case, against genocidal jihadists, adopting a pacifist stance is weak and immoral. I think Israel are absolutely justified and obligated to do what they're doing, as horrible as it is. No nation can make peace with death worshipping fanatics that constantly attack and murder innocent their innocent civilians and whose religion says this is required to attain paradise.

You may think you're too elite to take a side but just know, the Islamic fanatics have taken one and you're not on it. None of us really are.
 
deficiT said:
Palestine is a region. It's also a state. Although "unrecognized". It has been fought over for thousands of years and has changed hands several times. Between the Jews, the Romans, the Arabs, Western European Crusaders, the Ottomans, and more. It has thus had a lot of different cultures and languages used in it. It was called Palestine before it became Israel. Look on old maps.
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It's officially recognised in my country and a handful of others a sovereign state. Palestinian flags are a common sight here, and always have been. That's not to say we're anti semitic, quite the opposite in fact. There was a Jewish 'quarter' for want of a better word in Dublin for a couple of centuries and the City Council and, to a lesser extent the tourist board promote this as an area of historical interest. Which it certainly is.
 
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