Palestine discussion

[Mjäll]

I'm done feeding your trolling @Mjäll , have fun !!!!

You know how many times people have said that to me when i've defeated them in an argument and have done exactly 0 trolling?

This shit is like chewing or breathing or something.

 

[mauve]

Okay that's completely unrelated to what you said before and can't have been the point of that. You're just arguing for the sake of it.

If you say so. Ciao

 

[Tranced]

RIP Post

 

[paranoid android]

Ooh, here's a good question.

What is the solution to the ongoing situation since 1948 in Israel/Palestine

I am for a 1 state solution. Basically a socialist state for both Israelis and Palestinians

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

They all need to grow up imo.

And that goes for the rest of the world. When Christians, Muslims and Jews are forced to co exist in 'the holy lands', it never ends well. In fact, it never ends...

 

[mal3volent]

RIP Post

Try saying something of substance, if you can, rather than post nothing but ad homs.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

I am for a 1 state solution. Basically a socialist state for both Israelis and Palestinians

I don't think Palestine would agree to that. They are strict Muslim and only accept Sharia law; they consider all other laws man made and therefore invalid.
Come to think of it I don't think Israel would accept it either, they still live under Mosaic law and have a similar view of no man made laws. Why on earth would anyone suggest a socialist government for these two religious groups is beyond me.

 

[paranoid android]

I don't think Palestine would agree to that. They are strict Muslim and only accept Sharia law; they consider all other laws man made and therefore invalid.
Come to think of it I don't think Israel would accept it either, they still live under Mosaic law and have a similar view of no man made laws. Why on earth would anyone suggest a socialist government for these two religious groups is beyond me.

The PFLP wanted the 1 state solution. Unfortunately Israeli was far more scared of socialism then islam so they no longer really exist. Communist groups getting crushed by Israel or the US in favor of islamists seems to have been a big thing in the middle east. I wouldnt classify most Palestinian's as being radical Islamists anyway

The reason i am for it is because you cannot achieve equality under capitalism. It's kinda a oxymoron that.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

The PFLP wanted the 1 state solution. Unfortunately Israeli was far more scared of socialism then islam so they no longer really exist. Communist groups getting crushed by Israel or the US in favor of islamists seems to have been a big thing in the middle east. I wouldnt classify most Palestinian's as being radical Islamists anyway

The reason i am for it is because you cannot achieve equality under capitalism. It's kinda a oxymoron that.

Like most people in the world, Palestinians desperately need change. And that’s the name of the party that represented the Hamas movement on the January 25 ballots in Palestine: the Change and Reform Party. About 440,000 people voted for Hamas (in Arabic, an acronym for Islamic Resistance Movement) and 403,000 for the Fatah Party, or 44 percent versus 42 percent. So this was not the landslide for Hamas so widely reported. However, the election upset did translate into 74 seats for Hamas on the Palestinian Legislative Council versus 45 for Fatah. And it certainly sent a definite message of resistance to the Israeli occupation and disgust with the leadership of Fatah.

Justice long delayed. For half a century, Palestinians have fought for freedom from Israel and its handler, the United States. Since the 1960s, Fatah, the party of Yasir Arafat and main group in the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), has dominated politics. But in four decades, with Palestine up against the combined might of the U.S. and Israel, Fatah has only managed to become infamous for its corruption. More than half the Palestinians have been forced out of their own country. Those left are systematically prevented from developing economically, as Israeli soldiers and settlers take over more land and utilities and water. Sixty-five percent live on about $2.00 a day or less. Israel continues to tear Palestine apart with walls and checkpoints and barricades. Under these conditions, who wouldn’t vote for change?

Unlike Fatah, Hamas ran an efficient campaign. It focused on vital issues of poverty, education, healthcare, and jobs, along with freeing political prisoners, rebuilding homes, and wiping out corruption. It played down religion and emphasized defiance of the occupation, the right of return, the right to resist, and Palestinian unity. Many campaigners were women, recruited from the social aid organizations that Hamas has funded over the years. Hamas: an opportunistic journey. But what will the Hamas victory mean for Palestinians? A look at its roots and record is not encouraging. Hamas is an outgrowth of the reactionary Muslim Brotherhood, which was founded in Egypt and sprouted in other countries during the l930s and ’40s. One of its defining slogans was “communism = atheism = liberation of women.” In 1970, the Brotherhood supported the Black September massacre of Palestinians by Jordanian king Hussein. Brotherhood goons attacked Fatah and radical groups with clubs and chains in the 1980s.

Israel encouraged them. “We extend some financial aid to Islamic groups,” said Yitzhak Segev, former military governor of Gaza, “in order to help create a force that would stand against the leftist forces which support the PLO.” In 1987, the first Palestinian intifada burst out, a genuinely grass-roots, secular uprising led by Palestinian leftists, women, unionists and students. Just after the intifada began, Islamic fundamentalists formed Hamas to ride the wave of this groundswell of revolt. But the intifada was crushed, and in 1993 the secret Oslo Accords created the Palestinian Authority, fully dependent on foreign handouts. Its job was to police Palestinian dissidents and participate in the phantom peace process.

Hamas, meanwhile, flourished. Hassane Zerouky reports in Canada’s Global Research that between February and April 1998, for example, Hamas raised several hundred million dollars from Arab nations that once funded the PLO. “It is estimated that one Palestinian out of three is the recipient of financial aid from Hamas,” Zerouky writes. After the start of the second intifada in September 2000, Hamas won widespread respect for attacking Israel militarily (although there is hardly unanimous Palestinian support for its suicide bombings).

Like other Islamic fundamentalists, Hamas wants a religious state that would include Sharia law and the public segregation of women. During the first intifada, it condemned women militants for “un-Islamic” behavior and attacked those who were unveiled. Today in the Hamas stronghold of Gaza, women without a head scarf or veil are a rare sight, schools are segregated, polygamy is common, and there has been a rise in “honor killings” of women who defy Sharia repression. In the more secular West Bank, women gauge the Hamas victory warily.

link to source

Even Socialist Publications come to the same conclusion that I expressed.

 

[swilow]

Both Israelis and Palestinians have a claim. I would argue that the world was right to support the Israeli claim because it never precluded a Palestinian state, unlike the Palestinian/Arab claim which to this day, still seeks a singularly Islam dominated territory.

There is something odd about Palestinian Arabs only coalescing into a nationalist movement after Jews started arriving, and not before when the region was administered by the Ottoman empire from Damascus. The way I read that is that the issue wasn't so much being simply divested of historical land- by all accounts, the original Zionist introduced some significant improvements in infrastructure, agriculture, etc and initially weren't forcibly expelling arabs- but it was being asked to share territory with Jews. Any doubt about that can be assuaged by the fact that that is still quite literally what groups like Hamas say.

If the Jewish claim is weak because it is based on religious ideas/texts, the Palestinian claim was also weak as it was also based on religious ideas/texts.

Communist groups getting crushed by Israel or the US in favor of islamists seems to have been a big thing in the middle east.

But the original Zionist movement was extremely socialist- look at the collectivist kibbutz movement.

This is the thing with the Jews- they have been attacked as both too communist by the likes of Hitler, and too capitalist by the likes of Stalin and the modern left. The most malleable prejudice.

 

[paranoid android]

link to source

Even Socialist Publications come to the same conclusion that I expressed.

The only reason anyone supports Hamas was because the PLO under Fatah where so corrupt and where useless against Israel

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

The only reason anyone supports Hamas was because the PLO under Fatah where so corrupt and where useless against Israel

I'll agree to the fact that anything is possible, but strict Muslims reject any made made (secular) laws. They only follow the Quran and Hadithes, unfortunately. It's not that I want them to do this, but it would be wishful thinking to think that they will abandon Islam and become socialists because they one of the cornerstones of most if not all socialist governments is atheism or secularism. The belief of Allah is a core belief in all Muslim countries.

 

[swilow]

The only reason anyone supports Hamas was because the PLO under Fatah where so corrupt and where useless against Israel

People supported Hamas, and Arafat dismissed the Oslo accords for the same rather unsettling reason- Hamas had a much more black and white, hard-line antagonistic stance towards the Israelis/Jews. Arafat knew he was losing support because of his attempts to compromise whereas Hamas only gained populairty even while pushing for suicide bombing, and so Arafat supported the absolutely pointless, aimless Second Intifada as a populist move to maintain power. What that says about the general Palestinian population isn't pretty.

 

[paranoid android]

I'll agree to the fact that anything is possible, but strict Muslims reject any made made (secular) laws. They only follow the Quran and Hadithes, unfortunately. It's not that I want them to do this, but it would be wishful thinking to think that they will abandon Islam and become socialists because they one of the cornerstones of most if not all socialist governments is atheism or secularism. The belief of Allah is a core belief in all Muslim countries.

Socialism gained popularity in many muslim countries. Iran, Oman, Somalia, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, South Yemen just to name a few off the top of my head. But what happened everytime? The CIA or Israeli's or in the case of Iran MI6 always stepped in.

People supported Hamas, and Arafat dismissed the Oslo accords for the same rather unsettling reason- Hamas had a much more black and white, hard-line antagonistic stance towards the Israelis/Jews. Arafat knew he was losing support because of his attempts to compromise whereas Hamas only gained populairty even while pushing for suicide bombing, and so Arafat supported the absolutely pointless, aimless Second Intifada as a populist move to maintain power. What that says about the general Palestinian population isn't pretty.

If i was more reactionary i might have ben tempted to throw my lot in with Hamas as well if i was Palestinian. But nothing would change for the better if they got in power. The only thing that would change would be the nationality of the people oppressing Palestine. Hence why socialism is the answer. If it managed to become the governing force in a place like south Yemen i don't know why it couldnt do the same in Palestine

 

[swilow]

The only thing that would change would be the nationality of the people oppressing Palestine. Hence why socialism is the answer.

Everything isn't a nail, my friend.

 

[Electrum1]

From the part that is behind a paywall:

The above paper shows that Palestinians have more of the Megiddo_MBLA ancestry than Ashkenazi Jews, Moroccan (Sephardic) Jews or Iranian Jews do.

Megiddo_MBLA ancestry is the ancestry of ancient Levantines, so in the end, modern Palestinians retain a greater fraction of Hebrew-like ancestry.

Drilling down even further, independent researchers, including myself, who have collated and compared private and public datasets despite political sensitivities find that Lebanese Christians, Palestinian Christians and the Jewish-adjacent sect of Samaritans exhibit the smallest genetic distances to Bronze and Iron Age Canaanite samples. The 7th-century AD Islamic conquest reduced these groups to dhimmi status and made them endogamous populations, freezing their genetic profile about 1,300 years ago.

Private analysis of Palestinian Christians and Samaritans comparing them to Palestinian Muslims shows more Arabian-like ancestry and less Iranian-like ancestry in the non-Muslim Palestinian minorities, who, like Lebanese Christians also do not show much cosmopolitan ancestry from Africa and Asia (I double-checked this myself with the genotype of Richard Hanania, who is half Palestinian Christian and half Jordanian Christian, and all this is true in his case). So, with Muslim Palestinian populations, you have migration from elsewhere enriching them for more Iranian-like and African ancestry atop the primary Levantine genetic stock shared with their Christian and Samaritan neighbors.

So, who are the actual indigenous people of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza? If by this you mean those populations with the deepest and most substantial genetic roots in a geographical region, then that would be Palestinian Christians and Samaritans

More than kin, less than kind: Jews and Palestinians as Canaanite cousins

The cold facts recorded in Jewish and Palestinian genetics today and historically

www.razibkhan.com

 

[nepalnt21]

everyone deserves human rights

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

They've been fighting there forever

You deserve a coke and a smile

 

[elgoucho9]

Both Israelis and Palestinians have a claim. I would argue that the world was right to support the Israeli claim because it never precluded a Palestinian state, unlike the Palestinian/Arab claim which to this day, still seeks a singularly Islam dominated territory.

There is something odd about Palestinian Arabs only coalescing into a nationalist movement after Jews started arriving, and not before when the region was administered by the Ottoman empire from Damascus. The way I read that is that the issue wasn't so much being simply divested of historical land- by all accounts, the original Zionist introduced some significant improvements in infrastructure, agriculture, etc and initially weren't forcibly expelling arabs- but it was being asked to share territory with Jews. Any doubt about that can be assuaged by the fact that that is still quite literally what groups like Hamas say.

If the Jewish claim is weak because it is based on religious ideas/texts, the Palestinian claim was also weak as it was also based on religious ideas/texts.


But the original Zionist movement was extremely socialist- look at the collectivist kibbutz movement.

This is the thing with the Jews- they have been attacked as both too communist by the likes of Hitler, and too capitalist by the likes of Stalin and the modern left. The most malleable prejudice.

While I agree both sides do have a legitimate claim. Truthfully I wish we (Britain and America) had never took anything to do with it after WW2. Might sound harsh but that way we would have absolved ourselves of anything to do with it, which is all coming back to bite us now.

I would also say, the reason the Palestinian Arabs likely leaned towards a nationalist movement after the Jews started arriving. Is probably because they became concerned about the change their arrival began to bring on what the Palestinians considered their homeland. You see it happen alot with immigration. Look at Germany just now for instance after they took in all the Syrian refugees, it's brought about the rise of the far right again there now.
Ireland is also heading the same way. With both sides of the troubles now coming together to close ranks on the immigrants, some of whom were causing problems there.

Please do not take this as me being anti immigration, far from it. However immigration is something that needs to be done sensibly. Neither Germany or Ireland's policies to impliment it there were done in a sensible manner. Which then upsets the locals and winds up in the situation they are now in.

_____________________

Anyway I didn't come here to discuss immigration. I have another question. One for the people who consider themselves 100% pro Palestine.

If you are living in the West (which I assume most of us are), what do you think the cost of Israel loosing to Hamas might be?

It's well documented I have said many times I am not fond of wiping out entire races of people. And I do believe both Israel and Hamas frequently use propeganda and other questionable tactics in war, and most people truthfully are aware of this, if we are being objective.
However, Britain and America being so closely tied to Israel, a loss there could be the beginning of the end for the West.

How many of us would really be willing to loose the quality of life we have become accustomed to over this?

Interested to hear other peoples views on this in particular. It's something that has been troubling me lately, with the threat of world war 3 looming over our heads.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I’m not even sure what Israel losing to Hamas would even look like. Granted I don’t think it’s within Israel’s power to completely wipe out Hamas either but