Palestine discussion

[mauve]

because of Oppenheimer ?

No I'm more concerned that it's a nuclear armed state, not who discovered nuclear fusion. I thought that was Einstein?

 

[mauve]

The Hebrews – Western Civilization

pressbooks.nscc.ca

Very interesting, didn't realise formation happened that far back.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

What feelings? Do you mean my lack of theatrical feelings for faraway shithole countries or my strong healthy feelings in favor of not having theatrical feelings for faraway shithole countries?

Archaeologically the question is an obvious can of worms. It's playing out in this thread. The pro-Israel argument is far from fool proof. OP can't even address basic rebuttals.

The great sense it makes to not pick a side far outweighs any murky sense of rightness in your token can of worms.

All this bickering is a vicarious living for bored people. Dare to bicker against it. Own the weirdness.

 

[mauve]

Ooh, here's a good question.

What is the solution to the ongoing situation since 1948 in Israel/Palestine

 

[Mjäll]

Exactly!

 

[mal3volent]

What feelings? Do you mean my lack of theatrical feelings for faraway shithole countries or my strong healthy feelings in favor of not having theatrical feelings for faraway shithole countries?

Archaeologically the question is an obvious can of worms. It's playing out in this thread. The pro-Israel argument is far from fool proof. OP can't even address basic rebuttals.

The great sense it makes to not pick a side far outweighs any murky sense of rightness in your token can of worms.

All this bickering is a vicarious living for bored people. Dare to bicker against it. Own the weirdness.

It's a play on the "facts don't care about your feelings" meme made popular by Ben Shapiro.

I think you are entitled to have your viewpoint that what we're doing here is "vicarious living of bored people" , but I don't agree with that characterization.

I think objective facts matter. So agree to disagree on that I guess.

 

[Mjäll]

It's a play on the "facts don't care about your feelings" meme made popular by Ben Shapiro.

I think you are entitled to have your viewpoint that what we're doing here is "vicarious living of bored people" , but I don't agree with that characterization.

I think objective facts matter. So agree to disagree on that I guess.

The matter (of historical precedent and right to land) is obviously not clear-cut in terms of objective facts. To imagine that "objective facts" entail sympathy with the history and creation of modern Israel is a gross, ridiculous simplification. If it wasn't, the OP in this thread would be capable of addressing basic questions for nuance instead of sweeping them under the rug by simply ignoring them.

Your post amounts to one thing: You "don't agree" that yours and your opponents stake in this deeply tragic and retarded religious conflict is based on petty posturing rather than genuine engagement or exhaustive knowledge. This remains glaringly obvious regardless of your opinions. The only right thing is to not pick sides and we who have realized this have a stronger and better conviction. Have fun LARP:ing all of you. As said: You're all right that you're all wrong. Stop being silly please.

The right to call someone an idiot is there for the taking. Just stop picking sides in this bullshit and you win.

 

[mal3volent]

This remains glaringly obvious regardless of your opinions

It is not obvious to me. It is not obvious to others.
As much as pout and stomp your feet, you cannot unilaterally set the parameters of this discussion.

agree to disagree.

 

[December Flower]

What is your problem anyway? Read a book? You need to cut that out.

The Canaanites were the indigenous native people of Canaan, in the Levant region. They were descendants of the prehistoric humans that dwelled in that area over a million years ago. "Egypt" was not there before them. The Canaanites spoke a language similar to Hebrew.

There is evidence of Semitic speaking people in the area around 3000 BC that doesn't exist anywhere in Northern Africa or Egypt.

I mean obviously the first human beings originated on the continent of Africa , and Egypt is in Africa, but beyond that I have no idea what you're talking about. To suggest the Egyptians "had" that land 3000 years before the Canaanites existed is absurd.

Yeahyeah sorry. That's just how ppl talk here.
Insults usually mean we like you

I meant a book besides the Bible though. There's no proof whatsoever that the ancient kingdom of Israel ever existed. We're accepting a story as history here or what? Maybe the Thora was just someone's wet dream.

Mesopotamia was there 8000BC. Egypt was there. That much is proven. BAnd Israel was there later too. The Bible/Torah says a lot of stuff tho

There IS proof of Canaan being Egyptian VASALLS and of a Phoenician settlement.I wrote Phoenicians/Byzantines/Canaanites because I literally meant the mix of Byzantine Canaanites. Byzantine Empire Canaanites. Usually called Phoenicians - I'm speaking a second language here, sometimes it's hard to guess which word others understand. Not the region Canaan (which again is just the bigger region Palestine is IN, which was called Palestine even then - and you guys are still wrong about it being called Canaan. That's the larger region Palestine belongs to) or the original ancient culture there. And originally it was Mesopotamian. And later ancient Egypt/ancient Israel, whatever - neither Egypt, nor Israel have a claim to this land
I used Egypt as a point that ancient claim is worth zilch. I already said Egypt has no claim to it. Neither does Israel. Both controlled it for hundreds of years.

I already said that this hairsplitting about ancient heritage is not doing anything.

It doesn't change the fact that 90% of the population of Palestine was Arab when GB annexed it. 5% were Jewish, 5% were Christian (because of Jerusalem)
It doesn't change the fact that the land was Muslim for 1300 years. First Asch'arite, then Islam.

The Semite claim is literally as old as the fucking Bible. You ever seen a burning talking bush? Or a wise lion? Or dudes walking over water? A guy splitting an ocean? How is this used as historic fact by some ppl?
Almost none of the people there were Semites when the British gave it away, that's the important part here.

 

[mal3volent]

Yeahyeah sorry. That's just how ppl talk here.
Insults usually mean we like you

I meant a book besides the Bible though. There's no proof whatsoever that the ancient kingdom of Israel ever existed. We're accepting a story as history here or what? Maybe the Thora was just someone's wet dream.

Mesopotamia was there 8000BC. Egypt was there. That much is proven. BAnd Israel was there later too. The Bible/Torah says a lot of stuff tho

There IS proof of Canaan being Egyptian VASALLS and of a Phoenician settlement.I wrote Phoenicians/Byzantines/Canaanites because I literally meant the mix of Byzantine Canaanites. Byzantine Empire Canaanites. Usually called Phoenicians - I'm speaking a second language here, sometimes it's hard to guess which word others understand. Not the region Canaan (which again is just the bigger region Palestine is IN, which was called Palestine even then - and you guys are still wrong about it being called Canaan. That's the larger region Palestine belongs to) or the original ancient culture there. And originally it was Mesopotamian. And later ancient Egypt/ancient Israel, whatever - neither Egypt, nor Israel have a claim to this land
I used Egypt as a point that ancient claim is worth zilch. I already said Egypt has no claim to it. Neither does Israel. Both controlled it for hundreds of years.

I already said that this hairsplitting about ancient heritage is not doing anything.

It doesn't change the fact that 90% of the population of Palestine was Arab when GB annexed it. 5% were Jewish, 5% were Christian (because of Jerusalem)
It doesn't change the fact that the land was Muslim for 1300 years. First Asch'arite, then Islam.

The Semite claim is literally as old as the fucking Bible. You ever seen a burning talking bush? Or a wise lion? Or dudes walking over water? A guy splitting an ocean? How is this used as historic fact by some ppl?
Almost none of the people there were Semites when the British gave it away, that's the important part here.

Ok you are absolutely all over the place. You are straw manning the shit out of everything I say and then just rambling almost incoherently. I never said anything about anything religious but your responses continue to suggest that I have.

You say Palestine existed during the time of the Canaanites and that it was called Palestine. This as I said is absurd given that the absolute earliest reference to the word Palestine is only around 500 BC and the Canaanites existed thousands of years before that.

It is actually pretty irrelevant though since this thread is meant to be discussing the concept of Palestine as we currently know it and how it is popularly referenced in current events. That means Palestine as an independent entity or country, not an obscure ever-changing historical region of the Middle East.

 

[December Flower]

Ok you are absolutely all over the place. You are straw manning the shit out of everything I say and then just rambling almost incoherently. I never said anything about anything religious but your responses continue to suggest that I have.

You say Palestine existed during the time of the Canaanites and that it was called Palestine. This as I said is absurd given that the absolute earliest reference to the word Palestine is only around 500 BC and the Canaanites existed thousands of years before that.

It is actually pretty irrelevant though since this thread is meant to be discussing the concept of Palestine as we currently know it and how it is popularly referenced in current events. That means Palestine as an independent entity or country, not an obscure ever-changing historical region of the Middle East.

Again. The Phoenicians were not as old as that, and most importantly: they spoke Greek and had many elements of Greek culture implemented.
They might have called themselves Canaanites, but they were far from that. They were Greek. And the original "Canaanites", if they ever existed, 7000 years ago, only owned the place in a storybook we can to this day not confirm to be true

O yeah before 500BC it was called Palashtu or Pilistu. Yeah that's so fucking far from Palestine, you just googled when it was called "Palestine" first, and..yes, google spits out 500BC. First mentioned in writing. And btw as "Palaistine" not "Palestine"
That's prolly 1200 BC though, since they were Egyptian vasalls. before that: Palashtu or Pilistu. That's literally what you guys are arguing about: the difference between Palestine and Paleshtu/Pilistu. You asked your mr google and read the region is called "Canaan", and now are all ready to die on this hill, failing to understand that there's still a Palestine in Canaan, and there WAS a Palestine in Canaan for thousands of years. (the one dude literally said the region wasn't called ANYTHING before UK took it. THE HOLY LAND ffs.).

OK I do my history from memory, instead of Googling everything, so I'm bound to make some mistakes.
In the Bible there used to be Canaanites 5000 years before the Phoenicians, that also called themselves Canaanites, although it's doubtful they even existed.
I thought Phoenicians were the only people in history that called themselves that, at least the only confirmed people in history, and Phoenicians are indeed thousands of years younger than Egypt controlling the place. They still had almost nothing to do with the OG Canaanites, except calling themselves that. The Greekification level of that zone was to the max already. That's a claim for the Byzantine Empire or Egypt.

Tbh: So fucking what? I used all this ancient history to say: It doesn't matter if there was a kingdom of Israel that owned Jerusalem 7000 years ago, or Egypt owning it 5000 years ago and again 3000 years ago. (Or Mesopotamians 9000 years ago)
Arab Emirates and Sultanates owned it NOW. For the LAST 1300-1500 years. The people there were Arab. The religion there was Islam.
Palestine as a country identifies as Arab. So the last 1300-1500 years are what's important. Not some fucking ancient claim.

I know for Americans it's hard to understand that people living in a place for over 1000 years, you shouldn't just call their land yours. That's the wrong thing to do. And it doesn't make it your land either.
You don't just kill the indigenous people and take their land. That's naughty. Big no no.

And the Jewish 7000 year-old claim, that is a fucking joke. Nobody even knows if this existed for real. Probably not.
We can barely trust 100 year old history. 7000 years now? How do we know the Torah/Bible isn't just a work of fiction set in the real world?
Back in the day it was written, people would understand that it was a work of fiction, and over time we might have forgotten that it was.
Maybe it was the LOTR of ancient Mesopotamia.(cuz that's what the Bible/Torah was based on, Mesopotamian mythology) Do you know? I sure as fuck don't
Only time we really know they owned it they were Greek or Egyptian vasalls. And for the last one and a half millenia it was Arab.

 

[Mjäll]

It is not obvious to me. It is not obvious to others.
As much as pout and stomp your feet, you cannot unilaterally set the parameters of this discussion.

agree to disagree.

Everyone tries to do that

Difference is both of your sides are pro war, pro vicarious moralistic wanking and anti western self efficacy.

 

[mal3volent]

Again. The Phoenicians were not as old as that, and most importantly: they spoke Greek and had many elements of Greek culture implemented.
They might have called themselves Canaanites, but they were far from that. They were Greek. And the original "Canaanites", if they ever existed, 7000 years ago, only owned the place in a storybook we can to this day not confirm to be true

O yeah before 500BC it was called Palashtu or Pilistu. Yeah that's so fucking far from Palestine, you just googled when it was called "Palestine" first, and..yes, google spits out 500BC. First mentioned in writing. And btw as "Palaistine" not "Palestine"
That's prolly 1200 BC though, since they were Egyptian vasalls. before that: Palashtu or Pilistu. That's literally what you guys are arguing about: the difference between Palestine and Paleshtu/Pilistu. You asked your mr google and read the region is called "Canaan", and now are all ready to die on this hill, failing to understand that there's still a Palestine in Canaan, and there WAS a Palestine in Canaan for thousands of years. (the one dude literally said the region wasn't called ANYTHING before UK took it. THE HOLY LAND ffs.).

OK I do my history from memory, instead of Googling everything, so I'm bound to make some mistakes.
In the Bible there used to be Canaanites 5000 years before the Phoenicians, that also called themselves Canaanites, although it's doubtful they even existed.
I thought Phoenicians were the only people in history that called themselves that, at least the only confirmed people in history, and Phoenicians are indeed thousands of years younger than Egypt controlling the place. They still had almost nothing to do with the OG Canaanites, except calling themselves that. The Greekification level of that zone was to the max already. That's a claim for the Byzantine Empire or Egypt.

Tbh: So fucking what? I used all this ancient history to say: It doesn't matter if there was a kingdom of Israel that owned Jerusalem 7000 years ago, or Egypt owning it 5000 years ago and again 3000 years ago. (Or Mesopotamians 9000 years ago)
Arab Emirates and Sultanates owned it NOW. For the LAST 1300-1500 years. The people there were Arab. The religion there was Islam.
Palestine as a country identifies as Arab. So the last 1300-1500 years are what's important. Not some fucking ancient claim.

I know for Americans it's hard to understand that people living in a place for over 1000 years, you shouldn't just call their land yours. That's the wrong thing to do. And it doesn't make it your land either.
You don't just kill the indigenous people and take their land. That's naughty. Big no no.

And the Jewish 7000 year-old claim, that is a fucking joke. Nobody even knows if this existed for real. Probably not.
We can barely trust 100 year old history. 7000 years now? How do we know the Torah/Bible isn't just a work of fiction set in the real world?
Back in the day it was written, people would understand that it was a work of fiction, and over time we might have forgotten that it was.
Maybe it was the LOTR of ancient Mesopotamia.(cuz that's what the Bible/Torah was based on, Mesopotamian mythology) Do you know? I sure as fuck don't
Only time we really know they owned it they were Greek or Egyptian vasalls. And for the last one and a half millenia it was Arab.

IDK what you're talking about googling shit, everything I've read has been from various Wikipedia pages and the sources that Wikipedia cites. So more straw manning bordering on ad homs, I'm not interested in talking to you any further so don't address me.

 

[mauve]

IDK what you're talking about googling shit, everything I've read has been from various Wikipedia pages and the sources that Wikipedia cites. So more straw manning bordering on ad homs, I'm not interested in talking to you any further so don't address me.

I've also looked on wiki, it states the region filled with rich culture from various backgrounds. So I guess it's quite hard to answer the OP's question.

In the eyes of the UN, Palestine claimed sovereignty in 88"?

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

I've also looked on wiki, it states the region filled with rich culture from various backgrounds. So I guess it's quite hard to answer the OP's question.

In the eyes of the UN, Palestine claimed sovereignty in 88"?

"Palestine" was offered sovereignty when modern day Israel was formed(1948), but refused the offer. They can claim to be an observer state beginning 1988 but clearly not going back any further than that. They themselves did not express a desire to be a state before that, in fact they refused to accept the any of the offers in 1948. Israel did offer to accept Palatine's sovereignty early in 1948; but instead Palestine attacked Israel many times since.

England also tried to get Egypt, Iraq and Syria to allow the population to peacefully become part of those countries after Palestine refused the initial1948 agreement but none of the Arab countries wanted any part of the Palestinian sovereignty. In fact Egypt invaded Palestine on May 13, 1948.

edited to clean up spelling and grammar mistake that I caught after pressing <enter>

 

[mauve]

"Palestine" was offered sovereignty when modern day Israel was formed(1948), but refused the offer. They can claim to be an observer state beginning 1988 but clearly not going back any further than that. They themselves did not express a desire to be a state before that, in fact they refused to accept the any of the offers in 1948. Israel did offer to accept Palatine's sovereignty early in 1948; but instead Palestine attacked Israel many times since.

England also tried to get Egypt, Iraq and Syria to allow the population to peacefully become part of those countries after Palestine refused the initial1948 agreement but none of the Arab countries wanted any part of the Palestinian sovereignty. In fact Egypt invaded Palestine on May 13, 1948.

edited to clean up spelling and grammar mistake that I caught after pressing <enter>

Some of my pro Palestinian friends mentioned something about surrounding Arab countries having blood on their hands due to what's happened in the region

 

[Mjäll]

How the fuck does anyone get into such dumb petty details

OP should respond to the argument

This thread sucks

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

How the fuck does anyone get into such dumb petty details

OP should respond to the argument

This thread sucks

Yeah, I get it... facts don't matter to you.
So don't respond if it sucks that much to you. Simple !

 

[mauve]

We are debating, why get hot headed.

Besides it depends who you ask as to what answers you'll get, some of my black Jewish friends say the original Israelites were not white but black and middle Eastern. I have white Jewish friends who say the current European lot in Israel have nothing to do with the original Israelites so it really does depend who you ask.

 

[Mjäll]

Yeah, I get it... facts don't matter to you.
So don't respond if it sucks that much to you. Simple !

Nope.

You haven't responded to the most basic counter-arguments. You don't get to tell me i don't care about facts without qualifying that opinion. What is it even supposed to mean? When did i disregard a fact? What fact?

Why the bullshit, man? You're normally intelligent, but now you're defending religious war.