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  • N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet

p2p

Cyanide salts and acid? for someone who specifically states that they are not an org. chemist?

Thats really not on even putting the idea into their heads, sorry, not having a go at you personally, but that is not a fair thing to even suggest. Thats not likely to 'teach someone a lesson', its likely to get them killed. Is it a serious method for purification of ketonic/aldehydic carbonyls I don't know about? if so, could you perhaps inform me of the mechanics? not that I intend to employ it if so, but all the same, if my knowledge is incomplete then I end up climbing the walls like a crackhead who hasn't had a fix in two weeks =D Which means that I spend most of my days reading and in the lab. My lab being the only set of walls that I DON'T end up climbing whilst muttering things about the crayfish-people from r'yleh.

Clubcard-aside from being irritating when I got it into a minor cut/scratch once, I didn't notice any harm from skin contact with P2P. Could you elucidate on the manner of such problems?

Also, it does NOT take a degree to learn to make psychoactives. What it takes, is dedication and hard work.
Would you believe me, if I told you that outside of high school (a special ed school, I went to two of them but only one of them did science education WHATSOEVER) I have NO chemical education, education in biology or physics at all, bar what I have studied for (and experimented for) off my own back, from textbooks and with my own flasks, condensers etc., and formally I have not a single hour worth of learning in toxicology or (psycho/)pharmacology?

In fact, I was expelled from the highschool that DID have any chemistry ed at all. And even then my own lab was at least the equal, and I'd say a fair bit better than theirs was. And for that matter they held me back, in qualifications because 'sorry but we don't DO advanced tier GCSE papers'. Never mind that I got the best results in all three sciences that any student ever obtained, at the time of my taking the exam at least. Missed one question out of all of the three papers, and that because I miswrote the formula for carbonate rather than bicarbonate, or the other way around, I forget which now, since its been nearly 20 years since I was taking the exams.

But I've got a pretty much encyclopaedic knowledge of toxicology in particular, plants, animals, fungi, cyanotoxins, dinoflagellate toxins, and pharmacology knowledge is pretty good I would say, and I'd not call myself an incompetent chemist either, although my skills in biology are more comprehensive than as a synthetic chemist. Not unhandy when it comes to biotech either.

Where did these skills come from, the knowledge come from? dedication, that is where and how. I earned my knowledge by studying, only my study was entirely selfdirected and self-driven. PHD? I wish I could afford uni. As it is, I never even did A-levels.

But as far as facilities go, if I were to compare my lab NOW with my school's lab....shit. The teacher would be drooling with envy, and she worked in genetics before. She was one of the few adults I could talk to and have a meaningful conversation with in the school. There were two that I could, and coincidentally or not, both of them were science teachers. Although unscientific as it might be, I have a hunch, namely that it was no coincidence.

I'll grant you that being autistic gives me an advantage, in that I was just itching to go from the moment I could read, and did a LOT of wall-climbing in frustration before I could lay my hands on even OTC chemicals that required paying for, and couldn't be made from batteries, distilling nail varnish remover, cleaning up battery acid (and of course recovering the lead and lead sulfate, PbO2 etc,), but thats just because it gives me the natural aptitude for the subjects and the drive to pursue them.

The end result of it is the same. The application of drive and determination is something others, neurotypical others can perform, just the same as an autie or aspie or Rett's chick. And in doing so, achieve the same end.
 
Formal university courses are hardly required for chemical knowledge, you're correct that all you really need is a strong drive and affinity for the art. I've always thought of good synthetic chemists being members of a trade guild more than an academic association...
 
Sekio, why dissolve IPPD in methanol to extract non-polar impurities with Hexane? Would not it be better to dissolve directly in water and then extract with Hexane?


DocLad
 
If you can think of a way to get the isopropylphenidate HCl back out of the water without subjecting it to hydrolysis (heat + water + ester compounds like cocaine or any -phenidate = hydrolysed esters = loss of stimulant effects.), go ahead. I can't though.

At least with methanol you'll only get transesterifcation to methylphenidate instead. Unfortunately I think isopropanol is miscible with hexanes so you can't use that.

besides, methanol is much easier to remove than water by evaporation. (b.p. 54c MeOH vs 100c. H2O)

Again, maybe just avoid purification and take your knocks ... P2P is after all a natural metabolite produced when people take amphetamine, it's present in the urine from oxidative deamination of amphetamine/methamphetamine. So it shouldn't be toxic or even effect the drug experience at all. And I suspect it's not present in any more than 5-10% or your IPPH would be sticky and smell awful.
 
Yes, my IPPD is crystalline, so the impurity must be minimal. EnergyControl has not been able to tell me what percentage of p2p there is in the sample.

Wait! To purify the lot of IPPD, the first thing I did was to dissolve it in water and decant it on a coffee filter to eliminate possible insoluble substances in water. Then, to accelerate the evaporation process, I heated the pyrex until the water boiled without burning the IPPD. Has any reaction occurred in that process?


DocLad
 
EnergyControl told me that p2p was in the product at least 25%.

I finally dissolved IPPD in Methanol but I had some problems. I was in the kitchen with the solution and I do not know how it caught on fire, my house started to fill with smoke, my cats ran from top to bottom, the coffee filter was also on fire ... then a beaker with Tolueno joined the party ... you can imagine. I had to ventilate the whole house, thank God it was windy ... my wife has not noticed anything ... lol

Well, after all, the solution was black as bitumen, so I threw the IPPD down the toilet.

Thank you anyway


DocLad
 
Throwing it down the crapper with a load of toluene? don't flush nonpolars down the shitter man, that makes chemists operating at home look awful. that can't be good for the bacterial septic tanks that are used to process sewage etc., or anything else. I'm sure nobody wants to be drinking recycled water with your toluene in it.

Also, presuming you used an open flame, considering it caught fire? NEVER use an open flame round organic solvents that are even remotely flammable. Certainly not in open pots, thats asking for what happened to happen.

I suggest dissolving in just the minimum amount of H2O, and bisulfite adduction to precipitate the phenylacetone as a solid if you are ever to encounter the problem again. Perhaps salting it out afterwards into isopropanol, and after evaporating the iPA, test a sample for water solubility (the bisulfite adduct of P2P is insoluble), to ensure it is indeed the isopropylphenidate, then washing the HCl with a volatile nonpolar such as dichloromethane, to remove any nonpolar traces of crap. Well, P2P isn't crap, but you know what I mean.

And at 25% or more, that is certainly worth recovering as the adduct, cleaving the adduct back to the ketone with dilute base, extraction into DCM and evaporation of the DCM, then once purified, either formation of the ketoxime with hydroxylamine HCl+sodium acetate or sodium carbonate as a base to deprotonate the NH2OH and form the freebase in situ, to give the aforementioned oxime, and after rendering it anhydrous, creating a solution in anhydrous ethanol, or probably iPA and addition of the correct molar quantity of sodium, in small pellets taking as much time as needed without rushing, to prevent sodium related mishaps. This will reduce P2P ketoxime to amphetamine; the Na/anhydrous alcohol technique mentioned is known as the Beauveault-Blanc redu tion (hope I spelled that right, I always have difficulty spelling that bastardly name.)
 
Something doesn't add up here...

What was p2p doing in ippd in any amount in the first place?

And your crystalline ippd was 25% p2p?
 
Hi.

I threw IPPD to the toilet, mixed with water and methanol (although it also burned), not toluene, toluene I let it burn on my roof, I had no choice.

Regarding the bisulfite and the process you mentioned, the truth is that right now I do not have enough time to study a complex process like this, in fact, I do not think it's worth it, it's not a big loss for me to do without IPPD. I'm not used to the gerga between chemists, and first I must decipher that they sing all those things that you talk about, you understand me. My knowledge is limited, thanks anyway.

I do not really understand how there is so much p2p, I thought that maybe it was an interpretation error of EnergyControl, but they do not want to analyze the substance again.
At least the provider that sold me the IPPD after receiving my news to the product withdrawn from your store. Good gesture on your part.


DocLad
 
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Yeah, its damn weird for that much P2P to be in a drug that doesn't even USE phenylacetone for its synthesis.
I could understand traces from unclean chinese glassware, but P2Ps are amphetamine precursors, not ritalinic acid ester precursors.

For recovering the P2P via adduction with bisulfite:

https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/eleusis/bisulfite.html

This process works perfectly for P2P, I can verify that, as a witness to the adduct having been formed with this precise procedure, the only change was that of scale.

(also, P2P smelling foul? something wrong with that P2P then, its got a lovely kinda floral yet slightly hydrocarbonish scent, just a trace of hydrocarbon-ishness. Warm, sweet yet light and flowery kind of bouquet. I love the smell of P2P.
 
I'm thinking that maybe there was no need to dissolve IPPD in water / methanol and then extract the non-polar ones with hexane.
Would not it have been better to put the powder directly in hexane, filter and collect the solids?


DocLad
 
Yeah, most likely. I'd give it a wash in dichloromethane, because its highly volatile, evaporating rapidly, and it is an EXCELLENT solvent for P2P. Highly nonpolar. Ideal P2P solvent, as P2P has ideal solubility in dichlor.
 
If you can't handle a methanol solution without setting your kitchen on fire you probably don't need to be doing any chemistry at all.
 
Well cleaning his stuff isn't a bad idea. That can be done with very small (10s of ml for a few g) of solvents and basics like gloves and goggles to avoid melting his eyes out etc. But generally, agreed.

Although, producing a P2P adduct does only need the drug washing out, and the adduct saving. It IS valuable to other people, those who can safely work with it to make use of the stuff.

Although I really, really have been puzzled as to how the devil it ever got in there in the first place. 25% of a valuable precursor such as phenylacetone mixed in with a 'phenidate...the only thing I can imagine, is someone wanted to make it smell like that gluggy, glorpy but often potent as hell 'base' speed paste that we brits and europeans get going around at times. To both make it into such a gooey paste and to give it that sweet floral smell that me at least, tends to make me think of mixed epoxy resin compound a bit too. Otherwise, not sure how it could get there.
 
Sekio, I have a degree in pharmaceutical laboratory technician, which consisted mainly of spending many hours doing things in the laboratory, but unfortunately sometimes I do not have the discipline to be 100% careful. I have done a lot of A / B extractions, of many different products (DMT, Harmalas, and many other substances just for the pleasure of purifying them), but I can not deny my clumsiness. In fact, my wife is the first to warn me that these experiments have to be finished once and for all.
I forgot that the water with the IPPD solution carried a part of methanol.

Limpet_Chicken, I have come to the conclusion that EnergyControl must have been wrong when interpreting the results, when I did the Hexano extraction, it never changed color, I supposed that a significant amount of P2P would color it yellow, maybe I'm wrong. It is not the first time that EnergyControl makes a mistake like that, in its day it confused a sample of 5-Meo-Malt with another substance that I can not remember now. Maybe I'm wrong, but considering how strange it is that p2p ends up in an IPPD batch I can not think otherwise.


DocLad
 
It's definitely a more likely possibility that EC somehow cross-contaminated the sample. Especially if they only ran a single replicate.

If you had 25% phenylacetone mixed with almost anything, you're not going to get nice white water soluble crystals, it will be more like a paste or gum and would produce droplets of oil floating on the surface when dissolved in water.
 
Yeah, it would be gooey at best. And it would DEFINITELY smell, flowery and sort of sweet with a touch of hydrocarbon-ish-ness to it.

And as sekio said, P2P isn't soluble in water to any significant extent. Although not necessarily yellow. That would depend on the purity of P2P. Its colorless when pure. Only colored if its not distilled sufficiently to purify it properly, when it is, then its a clear, nonpolar liquid.
 
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