P. somniferum microculture

[jacky]

yeah stvip I have heard the same about young papaver seedlings, the data I saw was written by scientists working with commercial production . the idea I came up with is similiar to yours, harvest the plants right as they start to flower, digging up and using the ROOTS as well as the rest of the plant. this would benefit some people that want to keep a low profile, no scoring, no big fat pods advertising themselves, perhaps a sacrifice of total yeild for increased security and two crops a year instead of one in some areas...........

 

[stvip]

the idea I came up with is similiar to yours, harvest the plants right as they start to flower

That's not quite what I had in mind. The idea is to harvest the seedlings when very young - no more than 1-2 weeks old. I.e: plant a good amount of seeds in a tray, allow to grow until first set of leaves, harvest entire seedling. I wouldn't use roots of mature plants anyhow (but discarding leaves is wasteful).

 

[jacky]

I have read that the highest amounts of alkaloids in the plants are right before the flowers drop, located in the roots of the plants are much of the alkaloids before they move to the upper parts of the plant.

harvesting at a very young age is an interesting approach, almost like harvesting sprouts. I would think that with some poppy seeds the alkaloid content might be higher in the seed material than the sprouted? I have seen reports of anywhere from 50 migrograms per gram of M and C up to 249 milligrams of M and C per KILO.

 

[stvip]

Alkaloid distribution in P. somniferum is unfortunately much more complex than that (and there are quite a few present).
For a primer on that, and why I believe mature roots are not desirable, see:

http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/article.cgi/jnprdf/2005/68/i05/html/np0496643.html
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/101/38/13957
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=113780

From the latter:
"... However, morphine is preponderant in young roots of plants of opium poppy in field [18]"

This is a reference to

Williams RD, Ellis BE. Age and tissues distribution of alkaloids in Papaver somniferum . Phytochemistry. 1989;28(8):2085–2088.

Which my library doesn't carry.

harvesting at a very young age is an interesting approach, almost like harvesting sprouts.

It is, in fact, harvesting sprouts. Whatever methods works for germinating and harvesting, say, broccoli sprouts (whose seeds, I think, are comparably small), should work for poppies. Though I think it would be better if the poppy seeds were sprouted in a nutrient carrying media. Perhaps just plain ol' sterilized soil would work best, with a quick ethanol treatment after harvesting.

Hmm. Perhaps a moderator should branch this discussion into a new thread, it's interesting in itself, but quite distinct from the topic.

 

[mitogen]

Hm.. I have in my current possession ONE HOLY FUCKLOAD of poppy seedings. So are you suggesting that I could boil them up into tea and drink the resultant liquid and get high?

I read this in one of the above referenced articles:
"Plants roots of Papaver somniferum album contained codeine (0.031%, 0.031 mg of codeine per 100 mg of dried material), thebaine (0.012%) and papaverine (0.01%) (Figure 7). The roots of plants of Papaver orientale splendidissimum contained the same morphinan alkaloids in lower quantities (codeine (0.014%), thebaine (0.007%), and papaverine (0.013%)) (Figure 8). The roots of both species did not contain any morphine. However, morphine is preponderant in young roots of plants of opium poppy in field [18]. The accumulation of codeine is different from the accumulation of morphine in plant organs."

These appear to be contradictory statements...

 

[stvip]

That's precisely what I'm suggesting. Using the whole seedlings, roots included, and refraining from washing the roots with a morphine-soluble solvent. I would be very cautious about the dose, though, since we don't have an estimate for the morphine content. Probably that "Age and tissues distribution of alkaloids in Papaver somniferum' article contains the relevant information.
The figures you're citing are from an article concerning in vitro propagation of plantlets, and has very different results regarding alkaloid content and distribution (it cites the other paper to show that results differ from what is found in natural environments).

 

[johnnyb420]

interesting topic to say the least

 

[mitogen]

'simpson eh?'

wait a minute, you say i can't wash the roots, but surely the morphine content will not be located on the exterior of the roots, rather, the interior... if i can't wash the dirt off the roots, it would be pretty foul...

I'll try it sometime soon, hopefully

 

[BilZ0r]

45-90mg of morphine per Kg of Seeds... not exactly a great load, but better than a kick in your intestines

 

[stvip]

Two reasons: seedling roots are very fragile, and there are many reports of how rainfall or watering during flowering and pod maturations decreases alkaloid content of the pod, presumably through washing away the alkaloids (morphine precursors) of the roots. At this stage, the advice is best followed to eliminate a confounding factor for experimental results. How to keep things clean? Either germinate on a soilless (but nutritional) medium, or germinate in (preferably sterlizied) soil and place the crushed seedlings in 95% ethanol, place that in boiling water (should be a short period of time to perserve the morphine), then filter out the solids.

45-90mg of morphine per Kg of Seeds

I seem to recall a different figure, but that's seeds. The morphinan alkaloids in seeds are probably from dried latex and dried pod bits left over during processing. This is quite distinct from the sprouts, which are supposed to synthesize their own alkaloids.

 

[mitogen]

"rainfall or watering during flowering and pod maturations decreases alkaloid content of the pod, presumably through washing away the alkaloids (morphine precursors) of the roots."

That IS a reasonably large presumption: that all the morphine precursors are located in the roots and travel up to the pods to be synth'd into morphine. I figured that rainfall reduced the concentration of latex morphine simply by introducing more water into the plant. If you look at the plant as a closed system (little water is going in in dry conditions, and not that much water would be going out, likely due to adaptations by the plant suited to maturation of the fruit in dry conditions,) then adding water would simply dilute the alkaloids.

I'm considering germinating the seeds in vermiculite. Shouldn't really need nutrition in the medium if we're just growing to seedlings (how big?) - all the required nutrients will be in the seed.

Why bother with the ethanol? I intend to germinate in vermiculite, wash away the vermiculite, then steep the seedlings in water like tea. I don't think washing away the vermiculite (if it's done quickly, in ice cold water,) will wash away any of the alkaloids.

 

[stvip]

Well, bruised roots should be much more prone to leeching loss. As I said, it would add another easily avoiable confounding factor for interpreting (negative) results.

Shouldn't really need nutrition in the medium if we're just growing to seedlings

Well, the energy stores are quite limited in small seeds. Cotyledons store the remnants left from growing roots and other tasks, and have limited photosynthetic ability. AFAIK, they lack laticifers. Teleologically, in case of nitrogen starvation, one would assume plants would not produce and/or degrade alkaloids for use in crucial protein biosynthesis. Teleology, as always, isn't necessarily trustworthy, but all in all, I doubt excluding nutrition would beget plants with the same alkaloidal profile as those raised in soil.

Why bother with the ethanol? I intend to germinate in vermiculite, wash away the vermiculite, then steep the seedlings in water like tea. I don't think washing away the vermiculite (if it's done quickly, in ice cold water,) will wash away any of the alkaloids.

My suggestion of ethanol is for combined disinfection and extraction, if grown in soil (a recommended course of action, even if the soil is sterilized).
Anyhow, if grown in vermiculite, why bother washing? Extract the seedlings with any vermiculite clinging to the roots. A simple sieve will suffice for separating it.

Doesn't anyone have access to that Phytochemistry article? Could help in estimating dose and time of harvest.