Overcoming Ayahuasca nausea to get the most out of an experience.

[Kyle Andrews]

I've tried an Ayahuasca brew twice before (Mimosa Hostilis, Syrian Rue, Lemon Juice mix) and have had problems keeping down the liquid for as long as I can. The nausea is just too much for my stomach. The brew my friend makes adds up to be roughly 12 oz a doze to feel the maximum effects. He has done the dose multiple times and has had good success with it. However, that 12 oz is sooo hard to drink and a bit too much to finish it all without feeling any nausea coming up.

I need some tips on how to get rid of unwanted nausea and how to better mentally/physically prepare for this drug. Also, what are your guys thoughts on downing a whole 12 oz bottle as fast as you can. It doesn't seem wise but I'm open to hearing people's experiences with drinking it. I also understand that purging is suppose to be a good part of the experience, but not right away before you feel any of the effects.

Thoughts?

 

[Ismene]

I've never found any cure for the nausea - even with pharmahuasca you're still very likely to vomit once the DMT hits your system.

I'd forget about the "purging" having any positives, that's just indian nonsense. A lot of indian tribes suffer from worms and they think vomiting helps get rid of the worms.

The only surefire way to avoid nausea is to take shroomahuasca. That's an MAOI with mushrooms. No nausea and the MAOI turns the mushroom trip into an oral DMT trip.

 

[Flickering]

I haven't taken ayahuasca, only san pedro, but I can at least talk about that and maybe there's some crossover, even if ayahuasca is much more mentally and physically intense.

It's best to drink it over half an hour, to avoid shocking the system. I did this the second time, and did not throw up.

I wish I had thrown up. Throwing up is probably a good thing when you have that much gunk in your gut.

As long as you can keep it down for about an hour, you should be fine insofar as absorbing the psychoactive compounds. Consider taking a strong ginger-infused tea. Beyond the initial absorption, throwing up is a natural part of the experience that probably shouldn't or can't be avoided.

 

[Devourer]

it seems most psychedelics can make people hurl up chunks, and this is one of them that really does it.

 

[Jesusgreen]

I think honestly your best bet is to just try to throw up the moment you get nausea, until it's all gone. Purging can feel really good on any drug as long as you give in to it and don't try and hold it in and end up throwing up all over yourself when you can't hold it any longer. I think trying to suppress the nausea is likely to make it worse.

 

[Kyle Andrews]

I wouldn't have a problem with purging once I hit that hour mark, but I've tried sipping on it (treating it like a marathon, not a race) and that has still not worked on my stomach. I've always purged before I've gotten to experience the breakthrough. I am considering drinking some Ginger product, eating some Ginger candy. I have also heard rumors about something with Egg White getting rid of a lot of the nasty acidic content in Mimosa? Any truth related to this?

 

[Ismene]

No, it isn't any "sediment" in the mimosa that can be removed by the mighty power of the egg white, it's the DMT itself that causes the nausea. If you take DMT you get nausea.

 

[IamMe90]

I agree, but I do think pharmahuasca would help his problem. His problem seems to be that he throws up the sludge before the psychoactive effects can kick in due to the disgusting nature of ayahuasca sludge, if he took pharmahuasca he'd throw up after the DMT was metabolized and the psychoactive effects began to kick in.

 

[Ismene]

True, the pharmahuasca would at least get him past the nausea caused by the sludge.

 

[swilow]

No, it isn't any "sediment" in the mimosa that can be removed by the mighty power of the egg white, it's the DMT itself that causes the nausea. If you take DMT you get nausea.

I don't get any nausea from smoking DMT, and yet I will almost always puke when I take ayahuasca. The nasuea is caused by a few things, the tannins of each plant, the pretty terrible taste and texture plus the accumulation of monoamines at serotonin receptors. I have had a degree of less nausea when ingesting DMT Hcl in a capsule and drinking b. caapi tea. Probably from not consuming as much liquid. Still generally vomit though. Pharmahuasca is a different substance in this regard.

In my own experience the potion needn't be "sludge". Try brewing it for a longer time. The liquid will still be gritty, but it will at least be liquid. I try to drink it all quite quickly, in about 5 minute; prolonging the agony is useless, and if your still drinking when it kicks in and inherent nausea is increased, you've almost got no hope of keeping it down. Brew extra so you can redose, it works well IME.

Ginger can help nausea, but I find the worst part to be cramping stomach and bowels. It was often very bad when I was addicted to heroin/opiates- the last time I took aya was about 14 days clean and it was initially terrible, though it eased as the night went on. By hour 16-17 of drinking the ayahuasca, I was able to drink the stuff pretty easily, casually vomit and pray. We used small amounts of tropane-plants (brugmansia) to settle nausea (mainly smoking it, some weak brugmanisa 'tea' as well). I've not used ayahuasca since then and am ~5months clean.

But yeah- ginger and weed may help too...Best thing is to just relax and not worry about it, keep drinking it and you will be tripping no matter how much you puke.

 

[Venrak]

... We used small amounts of tropane-plants (brugmansia) to settle nausea (mainly smoking it, some weak brugmanisa 'tea' as well). I've not used ayahuasca since then and am ~5months clean...

As always, use extreme caution when working with deliriants such as brugamansia and datura. Smoking is probably the best way to ingest these powerful plants as titration is much easier this way over oral.

 

[Black Octagon MK 2]

The only surefire way to avoid nausea is to take shroomahuasca. That's an MAOI with mushrooms. No nausea and the MAOI turns the mushroom trip into an oral DMT trip.

Dear me! I've spent years on Erowid and Bluelight and I NEVER heard of shroomahuasca till now. Sounds fascinating.
Sorry to hijack the thread, OP, but I have to ask: If someone is experienced with mushrooms but has never done DMT, is it 'better' to have a pure DMT/ayahuasca experience for the first time, or is shroomahuasca an equally acceptable introduction to DMT?

 

[Kyle Andrews]

Dear me! I've spent years on Erowid and Bluelight and I NEVER heard of shroomahuasca till now. Sounds fascinating.
Sorry to hijack the thread, OP, but I have to ask: If someone is experienced with mushrooms but has never done DMT, is it 'better' to have a pure DMT/ayahuasca experience for the first time, or is shroomahuasca an equally acceptable introduction to DMT?

No worries brother, I'm always happy with one good topic discussion leading to another. Your question also can relate to what I have been asking about to because I've never combined Mushrooms with an Maoi either. I'm also more experienced with mushrooms as yourself.

Talking about Shroomahuasca: Would this be combining Syrian Rue with some mushrooms or combining Mimosa Hostilis with some mushrooms? Which would be better?

And Black Octagon, i'm sure it would be better to start with shroomahuasca for an introduction to DMT.

 

[psood0nym]

Evaporated and encapsuled mimosa tea slows the onset and mitigates nausea

I almost never vomit using evaporated and encapsulated mimosa tea powder. It takes one to two hours to start tripping this way for me, whereas with the liquid tea I puke and usually start tripping within 25 minutes. I don't understand why it takes so much longer, because I'd think the capsules would dissolve and the powder would turn into "instant ayahuasca" in the stomach pretty rapidly, but whatever, it stops the nausea. I think it stops the nausea simply by slowing down the onset of the trip (not having to taste the tea probably doesn't hurt either). I've tried dumping the powder in cool water, and in does take a relatively long time to dissolve relative to pouring near boiling water on the powder, so you might want to swallow the capsules with ice water and continue to drink ice water to slow the rate that the dust dissolves/gets absorbed (some anti-acid tablets might slow it down, too). The duration is also much longer (3 or four hours compared to the tea's 50 minutes), and I need probably 50 percent more grams of mimosa to reach the same peak intensity as with the tea because the dose is sort of "extended release".

To make it simply boil down the tea. When it starts getting thick lower the temperature of your burner to avoid burning. You should end up with brown flakes, not black. Once it's flaky and dry I put the cooled pot in a paper grocery bag and chisel off the flakes with a spatula (the paper bag is to contain the flakes as they shoot off in all directions as I scrape). Then I just pour the grocery bag into a Ziplock bag, crush the flakes into powder, and stuff it all in capsules from there. You can prepare many doses like this and they'll keep for ages. If you decide you'd rather have the hard hitting ayahuasca tea, simply empty the capsules into a cup and pour boiling water on them for "instant mimosa tea".

I've had pretty astonishing experiences starting with the capsules, and then taking a liquid dose after I peak from the dried powder. Of course I puke when I take the liquid dose, but there's an interesting qualitative change in the trip when you go from the smooth steady powder trip to the rapid onset of the liquid peak compared to the trip when going from sobriety to peak. I've only taken a liquid dose on top of the powder dose three times, and two of those times resulted in ego death (I've experienced ego death 4 times in nearly 15 years of tripping), so be warned that things can get heavy. For both of those doses I think I used 15 grams of mimosa made into encapsulated powder and swallowed followed by 8 grams worth of the powder dissolved into boiling water for the liquid dose taken at the peak of the first powder dose.

 

[Ismene]

Dear me! I've spent years on Erowid and Bluelight and I NEVER heard of shroomahuasca till now. Sounds fascinating.
Sorry to hijack the thread, OP, but I have to ask: If someone is experienced with mushrooms but has never done DMT, is it 'better' to have a pure DMT/ayahuasca experience for the first time, or is shroomahuasca an equally acceptable introduction to DMT?

Mushrooms and moclobemide is exactly the same as oral DMT but there's no nausea and it lasts an hour or two longer. I still think DMT and moclobemide are worth trying but the problems with nausea can ruin the trip a lot of the time so I prefer shroomahuasca.

Talking about Shroomahuasca: Would this be combining Syrian Rue with some mushrooms or combining Mimosa Hostilis with some mushrooms? Which would be better?

It'd be the rue you'd combine with the mushrooms Kyle, mimosa is just the source of DMT it's not an MAOI.

I prefer moclobemide (trade name aurorix) as the MAOI, there's no nausea, and by taking a 300mg tablet you're 100% certain to activate the DMT. With syrian rue it can be hit and miss whether you get enough to activate the DMT and there's more nausea too.

 

[swilow]

Dear me! I've spent years on Erowid and Bluelight and I NEVER heard of shroomahuasca till now. Sounds fascinating.
Sorry to hijack the thread, OP, but I have to ask: If someone is experienced with mushrooms but has never done DMT, is it 'better' to have a pure DMT/ayahuasca experience for the first time, or is shroomahuasca an equally acceptable introduction to DMT?

No. "Shroomahuasca" is not an introduction to DMT; its an introduction to mushrooms and MAOi. Ismene says a lot of good things, but the idea that somehow using a MAOi with mushrooms turns psilocybin in DMT is completely incorrect, and is an example of Ismene's persistent crazy-lunatical-oddness . That is not to say that mushrooms and MAOi isn't spectacular and extrmely psychedelic; its just a totally different combination of drugs compared to true ayahuasca. I would also say that there isn't neccesarily a whole heap to gain by potentiating an already orally-active drug such as mushrooms, whereas doing so with DMT is the only way one can take this stuff orally with effects. YMMV.

Talking about Shroomahuasca: Would this be combining Syrian Rue with some mushrooms or combining Mimosa Hostilis with some mushrooms? Which would be better?

Theres no point in combining mimosa hostilis with mushrooms because its not orally active. You would combine a MAOi such as syrian rue or banisteripsis caapi with mushrooms for a shroomahuasca experience.

And Black Octagon, i'm sure it would be better to start with shroomahuasca for an introduction to DMT

Not really, because mushrooms are not n,n-DMT. As I said above, shrooms and MAOi will introduce you to both MAOi (which are quite psychoactive in their own right) and potentiated mushrooms. Not DMT. The best introduction to DMT comes from (surprise, surprise) DMT itself. Try smoking it on its own first, and when your comfortable with it, try combining it with things. Bear in mind that MAOi and DMT is a pretty different experience to smoked DMT, so you might initially want to take some syrian rue and then smoke DMT to gradually build into a ayahuasca type experience.

Ayahuasca is a very beautiful experience, more inclined then many drugs to propel one into fear and panic due to a combination of extreme physical effects and very bizarre mental effects, but the fear will subisde if you allow it to, and the experience is really rewarding, maybe moreso then many other psychedelics.

And sorry for going on about mushrooms and MAOi in a disparaging way, buts its just plain silly to say that shroomahuasca is a DMT trip, cos its not

 

[Ismene]

^Issy, oh dear, dear me....:D

I'm sorry dear Willow but I've taken DMT freebase and moclobemide many, MANY times and I find it indistuingishable from mushrooms and moclobemide. So shoot me.

That is not to say that mushrooms and MAOi isn't spectacular and extrmely psychedelic; its just a totally different combination of drugs compared to true ayahuasca.

Well, it's N,N-dimethyltryptamine and psilocin is 4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. Doesn't sound that "totally different" does it?

I would also say that there isn't neccesarily a whole heap to gain by potentiating an already orally-active drug such as mushrooms

You've never done it have you Willow? All I can say is TRY IT. You'll gain a whole heap. I guarantee it.

Not really, because mushrooms are not n,n-DMT

But they're obviously close enough that when combined with an MAOI like moclobemide they produce exactly the same effects in the human body.

The best introduction to DMT comes from (surprise, surprise) DMT itself

Not necessarily. Oral DMT can produce some pretty ferocious nausea. I love oral DMT more than words can say but the nausea is enough to even put me off.

buts its just plain silly to say that shroomahuasca is a DMT trip, cos its not

So why do you think I'm saying it? For giggles? I've taken enough oral DMT freebase and moclobemide to stun a charging rhino and I've taken mushrooms and moclobemide countless times. I can't tell the difference - they're both DMT trips.

And you've never taken it and are telling me it's not the same? Come on Willow, don't be that close-minded. Come round to my house and we'll have a mushrooms and moclobemide session. Then see what you think. Trust me on this. Just try it.

 

[Ismene]

Ayahuasca is a very beautiful experience, more inclined then many drugs to propel one into fear and panic due to a combination of extreme physical effects and very bizarre mental effects

I don't agree with this either willow, I've always found DMT incredibly friendly, probably the friendliest psychedelic of them all. The only "extreme physical effects" is some vomiting and nausea and I'm not sure what "very bizzare mental effects" you're referring to, it's a beautiful, breathtaking psychedelic experience.

I think the only reason it's got a reputation as the ultimate arsequake is because it's so rare, and a lot of people are listening to reports from primitive indians or people who go into it after reading about it as this terrifying experience and are affected by the placebo effect of that. Anyone familiar with mushrooms will find the DMT world familiar to them, only a lot more psychedelic and with a stronger "presence".

 

[swilow]

Admittedly, the only time I've taken mushrooms with a MAOi was a combination of DMT, mushrooms and b.cappi, but even that didn't 'feel' like plain oral DMT. But I'm not really saying this in a subjective way- objectively, you won't be able to convince me that mushrooms and a MAOi give rise to an oral DMT trip because its actually not physically possible. Of course, to the tripping mind, they will feel similar in effect, but 4-Ho-DMT simply doesn't transform into DMT. Its a semantic argument really (and one we've had before) but I do feel that its misinformation albeit of a small and probably inconsequential kind. Its probably a good idea for me to emphasise the subjective nature of this idea and remind you that when tripping on a gutful of mushrooms and moclobemide, the conclusions that you may draw from your experience are possibly unreliable, especially when it comes to actually making a clear judgement of your own particular state of mind. I'm sure that both shroom- and ayahuasca feel similar, but physically and chemically, they are not, which makes a big difference. Similar to how heroin (diacetylmorphine) and plain morphine are chemically similar and heroin metabolises quickly into morphine, yet they are not the same drug in most major ways, subjectively and pharmacologically.

I find it indistuingishable from mushrooms and moclobemide. So shoot me.

Well, the fact that you find it indistinguishable doesn't mean all that much. Indistuingishable doesn't mean 'the same'. Many people that have used ayahuasca and shroomahuasca say that the experience is very different.

BANG

Well, it's N,N-dimethyltryptamine and psilocin is 4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. Doesn't sound that "totally different" does it?

Of course they are structurally related compounds, but in strict reality, they aren't the same, and in effect they aren't the same. I mean, 5-Meo-DMT is a DMT-like molecule but very different to n,n-DMT in effect. Same as bufotenine, 5-Ho-DMT, similar in structure to n,n,DMT and 4-Ho-DMT, but very different beyond that. Same as codeine (3-methylmorphine), heroin (diacetylmorphine) and morphine, virtually the same structure, and all metabolising into morphine, but different effects.

I know that I'm splitting hairs here, but its all true....8(

The best introduction to DMT comes from (surprise, surprise) DMT itself
Not necessarily. Oral DMT can produce some pretty ferocious nausea. I love oral DMT more than words can say but the nausea is enough to even put me off.

I meant smoking DMT; I should have specified that. I would agree though that oral DMT isn't the best introduction to DMT in general. As a side note, do you find ayahuasca/pharmahuasca to be very subjectively similar to smoked DMT?

I don't agree with this either willow, I've always found DMT incredibly friendly, probably the friendliest psychedelic of them all. The only "extreme physical effects" is some vomiting and nausea and I'm not sure what "very bizzare mental effects" you're referring to, it's a beautiful, breathtaking psychedelic experience.

I guess I'm comparing smoked DMT to oral, which are very different beasts. Smoked DMT is easily the friendliest psychedelic to me, phsically relaxing, producing a profound euphoric state with beautiful visuals and a welcoming mind-set, but oral feels more "violent", with a tendency towards rapid mood shifts and more confusion. Once again though, a subjective judgement only.

Curious: do you get much nausea from mushrooms and MAOi?

 

[Ismene]

But I'm not really saying this in a subjective way- objectively, you won't be able to convince me that mushrooms and a MAOi give rise to an oral DMT trip because its actually not physically possible

In what sense? Do you mean it doesn't sound like it should happen when you write it on a peice of peice of paper in the lab? Or are you saying the human brain definately can't work like this? Similar drugs can latch onto the same receptors and create the same effects in the human brain, the brain isn't that particular about it - if it looks close enough the receptor picks it up.

There's also one other striking thing. Riddle me this...You can take mushrooms by themselves on consecutive weeks and still feel full psilocybin effects. Take mushrooms and moclobemide on consecutive weeks and the effects are massively weaker. You just get very weak DMT effects and absolutely no psilocybin like effects whatsoever. The moclobemide inactivates the psilocybin completely - it simply doesn't work.

Answer that and stay fashionable

they will feel similar in effect

Nah, it's not that they "feel similar", if that was all it was I'd say that. You see EXACTLY the same DMT visuals. Oral DMT visuals are pretty unique. Those oriental arabesque translucent shapes floating in the air and filling your field of view. I've only ever seen that on one drug - oral DMT (and mushrooms and moclobemide)

but 4-Ho-DMT simply doesn't transform into DMT

No-one's saying it does. I'm saying that in the presence of moclobemide they act on the brain receptors so similarly that the human brain is unable to distuingish between them.

but I do feel that its misinformation albeit of a small and probably inconsequential kind

Or it's a tremendously valuable insight into experiencing DMT without the nausea.

Many people that have used ayahuasca and shroomahuasca say that the experience is very different.

I dunno about that willow, I can't find many people who have ever tried both oral DMT and moclobemde and mushrooms and moclobemide. Some have taken rue and caapi with mushrooms but obviously they're going to affect the experience in their own way unlike moclobemide.

Although even with Rue, James Kent in his article "mushroom ayahuasca" says "The presence of the MAO-inhibitor potentiates the mushroom trip in a synergistic way and produces stare of consciousness which, in my opinion, more closely resembles the DMT state than your average mush- room trip"

I think you hear me knocking and I think I'm coming in. In fact I'm already in the house and halfway up the stairs

Of course they are structurally related compounds, but in strict reality, they aren't the same

True, but I was just suggesting that they wern't "totally different" drugs. It's not like psilocybin and paracetamol for example.

As a side note, do you find ayahuasca/pharmahuasca to be very subjectively similar to smoked DMT?

I'm not a big smoker to be honest, always taken it orally apart from a few weak smoking trips.

Curious: do you get much nausea from mushrooms and MAOi?

Can be a little, but nowhere near as ferocious as DMT freebase. Perhaps because it takes a lot longer to comeup. Oral DMT rockets you to the peak within 30 minutes whereas mushrooms get you there after a couple of hours.