Covid-19 Outbreak of new SARS-like coronavirus (Covid-19)

[cduggles]

Buy your TP, Americans!

Panic buying of toilet paper hits U.S. stores again with new pandemic restrictions

Toilet paper aisles are emptying again as COVID-19 curfews and shutdowns in states from California to New York send pandemic-weary shoppers on a new scramble for essentials.

www.reuters.com

 

[Deru]

EDIT: after having a quick look, people with long-term effects seem to be elderly and vulnerable people... and long term effects or "long-COVID" typically lasts a couple of weeks or a couple of months.

I’ve dealt with quite a few long-term (maybe more accurately post-acute, or 90+ days, as no one really knows how long any of it will last) symptoms from Covid-19. My symptoms were so bizarre, and the neurologist, vascular surgeon, cardiologist and wound care technicians all said they have seen atypical symptoms manifest due to the virus.

The absolute worst thing for me was the venous ulcers that rapidly developed at about 28 days after my first symptoms, and some developed in spots that no one could even explain (for instance, the outside lower leg, opposite the Greater Saphenous Vein) and the peripheral neuropathy was utter hell.

Those ulcers just destroyed me, I can’t even describe, and I’ve been through some seriously heavy stuff medically in the past few years.

 

[JessFR]

As I've said many times, I agree with you that the Trump administration has utterly failed to deal with COVID... but I also think there has been widespread failure on a state level and a corporate level and a personal level. The entire country has failed to contain this virus.

Take Cuomo for example. New York state is an absolute disaster. Isn't he (Cuomo) more responsible for this than Trump? Are we really supposed to believe he makes decisions according to a man that he has openly criticized for years? And, even if he did initially listen to Trump, why didn't he do something when the numbers spiked? State government is more in control of whether or not there is lock-down than federal government. Has a single US state done a lock-down yet? If not, why not?

Just to repeat my disclaimer: I'm NOT saying this isn't partly Trump's fault.



He definitely would have won without COVID.

By the way, I don't mean to downplay the seriousness of this virus by questioning the long-term effects on young people. Perhaps there are a substantial number of young healthy people that have organ damage, etc... but I suspect there isn't and this is just typical MSM fear mongering. People are already scared enough. The truth is important.

People are already scared enough? That's not been my observation. My observation is most people aren't scared at all cause they're too retarded to feel fear.

Hell I'm scared but not of covid, I'm scared of people cause people are idiots.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Deru ... Sorry to hear about your ulcers. Like I said, I could be wrong. I just haven't heard of young healthy people developing many complications. From what I've read I think it's somewhat unusual?

As for lock-downs, there haven't been any hard lock-downs in the US that I'm aware of? If so, it doesn't seem like they've been particularly successful. Victoria Australia has proved that you can turn numbers around and get them to zero. I guess I just don't understand why no US state has done this?

Looking at yesterday's data, the least new cases were in the state of Vermont which has one tenth of the population of Victoria and 149 new daily cases. Victoria has had zero new daily cases for three weeks straight. There is not a single state that is effectively containing the virus.

New York state (which has the highest death rate) is under democratic legislative control.
New Jersey (second highest) is also dem... In fact, none of top 4 states (states with the worst death rates) in the US are either red states or under republican legislative control.

Am I missing something?

 

[cduggles]

Long-haulers (which is what people with long-term COVID symptoms are called) are usually people who weren’t hospitalized. For the most part, they are far from being well-characterized except for the acknowledgment that they exist, so I’d be surprised to see any reliable data gathering that confidently classifies this group of patients.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Long-haulers (which is what people with long-term COVID symptoms are called) are usually people who weren’t hospitalized.

That's odd. Do you have a source for this?
Not saying it's not true, just want to read about it.

 

[JessFR]

I'm surprised you haven't already heard of the phenomenon.

I kinda wanna emphasize though that even if it's not especially common, things don't have to be especially common to be unacceptable risks.

Your health is one of the few things you really can't afford to lose. You shouldn't fuck with it.

If you had even a 1 percent chance of losing your health, I'd say you'd be crazy to take that risk. Cause 1 in 100 is not hard odds to come out the wrong side off.


Again, unless it's drugs in which case fuck it you only live once.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@JessFR ... I have heard of the phenomenon. I'm just surprised it mostly affects people who aren't hospitalized, which is what @cduggles said. Everything I've read has said the opposite, that it mostly affects severe infections which I would also assume logically to be the case. Of course I'm not encouraging anyone to take a risk. I wear a mask even when I don't have to and was happy to comply to the very early strict lock-down that happened in NZ when basically everybody else in the world was winging it.

 

[cduggles]

That's odd. Do you have a source for this?
Not saying it's not true, just want to read about it.

Here ya go.

What’s unusual about the long haulers is that many initially had mild to moderate symptoms that didn’t require lengthy hospitalization—if any—let alone intensive care.

“Most of the patients that I see who are suffering from [post–COVID-19] syndrome were not hospitalized,” Jessica Dine, MD, a pulmonary specialist at the University of Pennsylvania Perelman School of Medicine, said in an interview. “They were pretty sick, but still at home.”

Why some previously healthy, often young, adults still haven’t recovered from the disease has stymied physicians.

As Their Numbers Grow, COVID-19 “Long Haulers” Stump Experts

This Medical News article discusses the puzzling phenomenon of “long-haulers,” patients who haven’t returned to full health weeks or even months after what sometimes is a mild case of COVID-19.

jamanetwork.com

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Weird. I'm not convinced just yet, but it's certainly interesting. One thing that occurs to me about the lung damage from the first SARS is whether or not some of the people had damage prior to getting the virus but didn't receive any scans until after they were infected. A friend of mine went through lung cancer treatment recently and he was told that most people by middle-age have a certain amount of scarring in their lungs. Doctors told me the same thing when I did an MRI of my brain and found a couple of spots.

What I gather from your article combined with others I have read is that permanent (or very long-term) organ damage occurs from severe infections, but there are other symptoms that doctors don't quite understand yet that persist for some time. Also, older people (who are statistically more likely to have severe infections) are more likely to be long haulers.

The quote you posted from the article isn't entirely consistent with the rest of the article. It seems like doctors aren't sure what's going on. I'm very curious to look at more solid data when it becomes available. But, you've definitely got me thinking about it. (y)

Here are some quotes from your article that lean more to supporting relatively short-term post virus symptoms and long haulers being elderly and/or severely infected cases:

“Anecdotally, there’s no question that there are a considerable number of individuals who have a postviral syndrome that really, in many respects, can incapacitate them for weeks and weeks following so-called recovery and clearing of the virus,” Anthony Fauci, MD, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said in July during a COVID-19 webinar organized by the International AIDS Society."

"In a recent JAMA research letter, 125 of 143 Italian patients ranging in age from 19 to 84 years still experienced physician-confirmed COVID-19–related symptoms an average of 2 months after their first symptom emerged. All had been hospitalized, with their stays averaging about 2 weeks"

"As with SARS, many COVID-19 long haulers are health care workers who had massive exposure to the virus early in the pandemic"

"The older the patients, the more likely they were to say they their pre–COVID-19 health hadn’t come back."

 

[Deru]

The quote you posted from the article isn't entirely consistent with the rest of the article. It seems like doctors aren't sure what's going on

This is what I’ve experienced. Doctors just aren’t sure what’s going on, they see a lot of patients with atypical symptoms and seem to broadly classify it as Covid-19 related, although they have no way to definitively confirm their assumptions. A few of the doctors that I’ve spoken to more in depth with are reading case studies just like we are and basing their opinions off of them.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I haven’t looked much at the recent data, but the first thing that comes to mind is population and population density. I know Fauci actually praised New York and New Jersey’s coronavirus response a month or so ago, but admittedly, I’m not sure where the data stands now.

New Jersey has one of the highest (maybe the highest) death rates in the world. Nearly one in every five hundred people are dead there already. You may have a point about the constitution (I don't know) but population density doesn't explain it. There are countless examples of highly populated areas like Tokyo and Seoul containing the virus effectively.

In terms of what other countries have done, I don’t believe it would be constitutional to implement a lock-down of that nature here.

I haven't looked deeply into the constitution as it pertains to lock-downs. People keep saying that it's constitutionally impossible to lock-down. Can you explain it to me in more detail?

You might find this article interesting. It dissects the US response to Spanish Flu, on a state level. Obviously they didn't do a Victorian style lock-down, but every state across the US enforced social distancing and various other restrictions.

How they flattened the curve during the 1918 Spanish Flu

Social distancing isn’t a new idea—it saved thousands of American lives during the last great pandemic. Here's how it worked.

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[Deru]

I strongly suspect that it is, but id have to know specifically what kind of lockdown you were thinking of in order to check.

But there have been lots of quarantines in America's history that many Americans today would think were unconstitutional, but weren't.

Yeah, that’s a good point. It would really depend what @birdup.snaildown meant, specifically, by a hard lockdown.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Yeah, that’s a good point. It would really depend what @birdup.snaildown meant, specifically, by a hard lockdown.

First you said it was impossible because of republican legislative control in individual states. I pointed out that the states with the worst death rates are all democratic. Then we moved on to it being constitutionally impossible to perform whatever sort of lock-down is necessary to contain the virus. Either way, it can't really be mostly Trump's fault.

It seems like it is mostly the constitution's fault?

By hard lock-down I mean whatever is needed. Victoria needed a harder and longer lock-down than NZ. If US states acted early, many of them probably wouldn't have needed to go so hard. It all depends on the situation.

 

[JessFR]

Ultimately if a lockdown is constitutional would come down to Supreme Court ruling. But the Supreme Court has given the green light to lots of actions similar to today in the past. Including isolating people and even mandatory vaccination.

The powers are there, it's less about "can we" but "should we"

 

[Deru]

Thanks @Xorkoth . It’s hard to believe how it all played out, I got it back when it initially broke out in March and I’m just grateful the worst of it is over with. Those damn ulcers though, damn, I had to sleep standing up the pain was so intense and would just scream and burn non-stop. Which is another thing I’ve been dealing with, physical therapy to fix all the muscle imbalances and rotated pelivs I caused from sleeping standing up for months lol. Sigh.... at least I can laugh about it at this point.

Another downside to being an addict, no pain medication almost the entire time.

The pain was worse than all three of my open heart surgeries hands down.

 

[JessFR]

Thanks @Xorkoth . It’s hard to believe how it all played out, I got it back when it initially broke out in March and I’m just grateful the worst of it is over with. Those damn ulcers though, damn, I had to sleep standing up the pain was so intense and would just scream and burn non-stop. Which is another thing I’ve been dealing with, physical therapy to fix all the muscle imbalances and rotated pelivs I caused from sleeping standing up for months lol. Sigh.... at least I can laugh about it at this point.

Another downside to being an addict, no pain medication almost the entire time.

The pain was worse than all three of my open heart surgeries hands down.

That's so fucked, I mean, unless you chose not to have pain medication, doctors should be giving us MORE pain medication due to tolerance, not less.

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

 

[cduggles]

Weird. I'm not convinced just yet, but it's certainly interesting.

I’m not trying to convince you. I think long haulers are poorly characterized, and the data is contradictory because it’s not systematically gathered.

 

[Deru]

That's so fucked, I mean, unless you chose not to have pain medication, doctors should be giving us MORE pain medication due to tolerance, not less.

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Totally agree.

It indirectly caused me more harm due to the insane things I did trying to escape the pain, like sleeping standing up or writhing in pain, desperately trying to make it stop.

It’s hard to understand how they are not causing net harm by withholding pain medication in instances like this.

 

[cduggles]

Do you have a source for this?

Here’s another webpage that references another study:

Note that the Italian study was a group of hospitalized patients, in April and May, when the pandemic was particularly bad and hospitals were only accepting the most severe cases. But the typical Long Hauler is not hospitalized.

Prolonged Symptoms Survey: “Most of the respondents were not hospitalized. Many did visit the ER/urgent care to seek treatment, but they were not admitted to or stayed overnight at a hospital.” [3]

which references:
Assaf, Gina, et al., The Patient-Led Research Team, “An Analysis of the Prolonged COVID-19 Symptoms Survey.” Report Released: May 11th, 2020 by patientresearchcovid19.com

I’ve seen this idea referenced in several places by different sources, but I don’t think the data is strong enough yet to make sweeping generalizations. It is interesting though.

Edit: original quote from https://covid.us.org/2020/07/12/covid-19-long-haulers-meaning-symptoms-support-groups/