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Covid-19 Outbreak of new SARS-like coronavirus (Covid-19)

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great bit of random deflection, failure to address the points with a sprinkling of ad hominem. Way to go, is this how you were taught to debate? or was that another class you skipped at college.

if we are playing that game how about you explain to the people who have lost their job, lost their business why you think the impact of the lockdown insanity is not that big of a deal? so sayeth the gospel according to Atara back in march April.
 
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A conspiracy theorist walks into a covid party and says...

30-year-old dies after attending 'Covid party' in Texas

Patient said: ‘I think I made a mistake, I thought this was a hoax, but it’s not’, according to health official

A 30-year-old patient died after attending a ‘“Covid party”, believing the virus to be a hoax, a Texas medical official has said.

“Just before the patient died, they looked at their nurse and said ‘I think I made a mistake, I thought this was a hoax, but it’s not,’” said Dr Jane Appleby, the chief medical officer at Methodist hospital in San Antonio.

Appleby said: “I don’t want to be an alarmist, and we’re just trying to share some real-world examples to help our community realise that this virus is very serious and can spread easily.”

A “Covid party” is a gathering held by somebody diagnosed with coronavirus to see if the virus is real and to see if anyone gets infected, she explained.


 
@atara @novaveritas , guys, can we please keep the personal insults out of this?
Sorry, but that means I quit. I don't think it's worth my time to try to write informative posts if I have to respond "politely" to a Gish Gallop of utter nonsense. It takes effort to be accurate but it's easy to just cast doubt on everything, ignore the cases where you get proven wrong, and make more stuff up constantly. I have a job and responsibilities and plenty of other things my efforts are better spent on.

Nova detracts from every thread he posts in. That's just a fact.
 
Nova detracts from every thread he posts in. That's just a fact.

That is exactly the kind of personal attacks the site does not want, as outlined in the forum guidelines and by explicit statement from the forum mods.



The following is a 'general' YOU, not atara specifically:
You have the choice to engage or not engage with people you disagree with - YOU decide if it is worth your time, or if it is wasted effort and that's something you're into or not.
IF you decide to engage, abide by the rules. There are many old sayings that can apply "if you cant say something nice, dont say anything at all" and "you catch more flies with sugar than vinegar".
Bottom line, play nice or don't play. This is for everyone.
 
Sorry, but that means I quit. I don't think it's worth my time to try to write informative posts if I have to respond "politely" to a Gish Gallop of utter nonsense. It takes effort to be accurate but it's easy to just cast doubt on everything, ignore the cases where you get proven wrong, and make more stuff up constantly. I have a job and responsibilities and plenty of other things my efforts are better spent on.

Nova detracts from every thread he posts in. That's just a fact.

I don't think it's an unreasonable thing to ask.
 
this administration is dysfunctional.

Trump takes swipes at Fauci, CDC as coronavirus cases rise

President Donald Trump on Monday took swipes at health experts in his government leading the U.S. response to the coronavirus outbreak, as his relationship further frayed with top infectious diseases doctor Anthony Fauci.

The Republican president, seeking re-election in November, has been increasingly critical of government health officials and their guidance as a steady rise in infections threatens the easing of shutdown restrictions across the country.

In the early morning, Trump retweeted to his 83 million followers the accusations of a former game show host that “everyone is lying,” including the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

dr, fauci has a degree in medicine from cornell and has been the director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases for 35 years.

donald trump thinks injecting bleach might be the answer.

if he has a problem with dr. fauci why doesn't he just fire him?

what happened to "the buck stops here"?



alasdair
 
I would like to know why everyone changed their minds about masks though.
I was just thinking about it again today.
For the longest time they were saying we didn't need them, to let the nurses and doctors have them.
Was it just a matter of we had a shortage and they didn't want us buying them all?

I hear "new research" cited as a reason, but it's hard to believe we needed a new study to tell us what should have been common sense from the start. That masks don't necessarily prevent you from getting sick but it drastically slows the spread amongst the entire population.

Then you have the Tucker Carlsons of the world who used to advocate wearing them and now have done a complete 180 to line up with the Fuhrer.
 
covid 19 is mutating china trying to cover it up but many kids are now dying from covid in china. this shit is getting worse by the month i doubt international borders are going to reopen for at least another year maybe 2.
Could you offer some citations or links from reputable sources please TripSitterNZ? I have seen there are now 2 variants but the second is no more hazardous than the original.
 
I would like to know why everyone changed their minds about masks though.
I was just thinking about it again today.
For the longest time they were saying we didn't need them, to let the nurses and doctors have them.
Was it just a matter of we had a shortage and they didn't want us buying them all?

I hear "new research" cited as a reason, but it's hard to believe we needed a new study to tell us what should have been common sense from the start. That masks don't necessarily prevent you from getting sick but it drastically slows the spread amongst the entire population.

Then you have the Tucker Carlsons of the world who used to advocate wearing them and now have done a complete 180 to line up with the Fuhrer.
As posted in https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/the-2020-trump-presidency-thread.882407/page-27

1. 10% protection via a mask is better than 0% protection
2. There were not enough masks so the public were told to a) stay home and b) don't bother wearing masks since you are at home, leave the few masks that are available to the people who are out treating sick people
3. The purpose of the masks now, is to prevent people who may be infected -but only mildly- passing the virus on to others who would be more severely affected
 
There were not enough masks so the public were told to a) stay home and b) don't bother wearing masks since you are at home, leave the few masks that are available to the people who are out treating sick people

yeah it's not like they were saying don't wear masks because you're at home. During the lockdown period when people were still going in grocery stores and other essential businesses , we were being told masks don't help. Don't bother. If that was just a way to stop people from buying masks until the production could ramp up, fine, but I wish they'd just be honest about it instead of acting like there's "new research" .
 
yeah it's not like they were saying don't wear masks because you're at home. During the lockdown period when people were still going in grocery stores and other essential businesses , we were being told masks don't help. Don't bother. If that was just a way to stop people from buying masks until the production could ramp up, fine, but I wish they'd just be honest about it instead of acting like there's "new research" .
I think they did it to prevent PPE from running out for healthcare workers, who arguably need it the most.

DJT uses war times act to make ventilators for sale on int'l market for profit (to boost his stock portfolio; likely had stock interest in the companies he arm wrestled into submission) - but not for masks.... no mask price standardization as in other countries (so that people can have readily available, affordable access to face masks)...
 
I would like to know why everyone changed their minds about masks though.
I was just thinking about it again today.
For the longest time they were saying we didn't need them, to let the nurses and doctors have them.
Was it just a matter of we had a shortage and they didn't want us buying them all?

There are wo contributing components, as far as I believe. The first was, originally, the limited supply we had needed to be prioritized to health care professionals. Once that component was taken care of, the next is a bit trickier. The second component was the economy. First, the question was, will the virus survive the summer and the lockdowns. If yes, then it had to be scientifically proven to be effective enough to use as a mitigating component combined with social distancing alone. Once we realized it wasn't going away, it was the only way to keep the economy opening with another mitigating factor thrown to offset it - as maintaining social distancing no longer works to keep opening the economy. This was severely complicated by Trump's comments, fear of contradicting him, and also forcing a population that is very sensitive to tyrannical governments and their rights (since our country was founded in that sense and even has specific provisions written to prevent from it ever happening again.)

I don't believe the news of all the asymptotic played in, as I'm pretty sure any medical expert and doctor already knew that to be the case - especially considering if you take a look at countries like Iceland who were able to test their whole country very early on.
 
Could you offer some citations or links from reputable sources please TripSitterNZ? I have seen there are now 2 variants but the second is no more hazardous than the original.

That's true. The second is more transmissable, but there is no evidence, yet, to indicate it's more deadly or harmful.
 
Are we gonna deny this again?


Refrigerated trucks requested in Texas and Arizona as morgues fill up due to coronavirus deaths

"We are nowhere near the sustained decline in cases. ...The hospital system as a whole, as we said, is under severe stress," Nirenberg said.

When asked during Monday's meeting about the need for refrigerated trucks in Bexar County, where San Antonio is located, Dr. Ken Davis, chief medical officer of Christus Santa Rosa Health System, said it is a "hard thing to talk about – people's loved ones are dying."

"In a hospital, there are only so many places to put bodies... We're out of space, and our funeral homes are out of space, and we need those beds. So, when someone dies, we need to quickly turn that bed over," Davis said.
 
I could understand the anti-lockdown protests. People couldn't go to work, people were basically holed up in their houses, and some places had "shelter in place" orders where one could face charges for going out for "non essential reasons". Honestly, I agreed wholeheartedly with the protesters that the last one was a complete violation of civil liberties. But why the fuck are people so insistent on not wearing a mask? You could wear a mask literally anywhere. It doesn't restrict your movements. So, I don't see it as impinging on people's freedom at all honestly. Plus, if everyone wore a mask, all this would be under control in two months according to the CDC.

All this "But wearing a mask impinges on my freedom" makes no sense to me. The freedom to do what exactly? It isn't as if getting coronavirus could possibly have any sort of benefit. At worst, you could end up getting sick enough that you need to be hospitalized (or worse), or you could spread it to a friend/family member who develops a life-threatening case of it. Yes, in a sense, the case fatality rate is likely "inflated" due to large numbers of unrecorded mild and asymptomatic cases. If you look at the data from places where everyone was getting tested (e.g. the Diamond Princess cruise ship comes to mind here), it becomes clear that the actual mortality rate is not that high.

On the Diamond Princess cruise, around 50 people in their 80s were infected. Out of these individuals, only around half showed symptoms. And one died. Among people in their 70s, 95 had a symptomatic case and around 135 were asymptomatic. There were six deaths in this age group. Among people in their 60s, 76 had symptoms and 101 did not. One person in this age range died as a result of the virus. No one in their 50s or younger died, but the number of passengers in these age groups was much lower.

I also read about an antibody study done in Spain that appeared to have similar results. Among people under 65, the risk of dying from coronavirus on an individual level is less than the risk of being in a car accident. Among people in their 60s and 70s, 94% of people who had it did not need to be hospitalized. Even the study looked at people in their 90s, only 1 in 4 needed to be hospitalized. However, even still, it is worse than the flu. By a lot. For people under eighteen, coronavirus is much less dangerous than the flu. For adults, it's a very different story.

For people who are 20 to 64, an individual's chances of death from the virus (if they become infected) is two to four times more than the flu. For people who are over 80, it's around 1.7 times as deadly as the flu (even the flu is extremely dangerous to people who are elderly with medical problems). So, yes it is true to a certain extent that the media is fear-mongering and being sensationalist. That's what they always do, and I would not expect any different from them. That is simply what they do. Being angry or shocked by that at this point is no different than waking up and being surprised to see that the sky is blue. It isn't right or fair, but it's unfortunately just the way things are.

So, yes it is true that the virus probably will not kill you. Though, no one is entirely safe from it either. Saying that fewer people die in car accidents than from the virus does not necessarily mean a whole heck of a lot. Over a million people die in car accidents every single year. It simply is not talked about much because it's not a new problem, and it's not something that one can do a whole heck of a lot about either other than following the speed limits, driving carefully, etc. But around 1% of the whole country dies in a car accident every year. So, saying that coronavirus is less likely to kill you is not saying a whole heck of a lot. The median age of coronavirus deaths in the United States is actually 48.

There actually are a lot of people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s who die of coronavirus. So, essentially it looks like while older people have a significantly higher level of risk than younger individuals, people of any age (though much less so for those under 18) could potentially be at risk. Though, it is also far from a death sentence, and most people do recover (including people who are older). And yes, as some have said, people in long-term care/nursing home facilities make up more than 50% of coronavirus-related deaths in some areas.

Older people in these settings face mortality rates from this virus of 25-50%+, and it often results in hospitalization and long-term complications even among survivors in this demographic. And yes, the flu is actually dangerous to people in this demographic as well. However, coronavirus has an even higher mortality rate among this demographic. What makes this especially dangerous is that it spreads very readily if people do not wear masks and/or practice social distancing. It spreads far faster than the flu does. Even though it's true that people in nursing homes make up a highly disproportionate share of Covid-19 fatalities, their lives matter just as much as anyone else's.

An average person with the flu infects around 1.4 other people on average, but that figure can be as high as 3 or more with little precautions. It can be as high as 2-3 even with some social distancing in place. It's very contagious. Keep in mind that severe flu seasons can place a strong burden on hospitals, and despite its comparatively lower mortality rate and reduced contagiousness compared to coronavirus, the flu causes up to 60,000 deaths per year. Most people who get this will not end up in the hospital. However, unchecked it spreads incredibly fast, and it has a higher mortality and hospitalization rate than the flu. So, the influx of patients has the potential to overwhelm hospitals if it's left unchecked.

Thus, if you did have the misfortune of having a severe case of coronavirus, you would get a reduced quality of care that would make it more likely that you'd die. Anyone could end up having a severe case (with the possible exception of people who've had it already in the past and recovered). Plus, if you were to need treatment in a hospital for something like a car accident, your quality of care would be greatly reduced. Thus, you would be at an increased risk of death, regardless of what it was that brought you to the hospital in the first place. Wearing a mask is actually incredibly and surprisingly effective at preventing the spread, which could get things under control very fast.

If an infected person interacts with a non-infected person but both parties are wearing masks, the risk of transmission is a mere 1.5% of what it would be otherwise. Yes, one and a half percent. Effectively, universal masks would nearly stop transmission of the virus entirely. Furthermore, even in cases where someone did contract the virus, they'd be exposed to fewer viral particles. Thus, their viral load would be reduced, and the case would be much less likely to become severe enough to result in death or hospitalization. Two things can be true at the same time. Yes, the virus probably will not kill you, and yes the media has sensationalized it (of course, what else would anyone expect).

However, that doesn't mean that wearing a mask is unnecessary or that this pandemic is a hoax. It's still potentially a very serious situation, but if people together and simply wear a mask, this will be brought under control and fast. Personally, I am not panicking about this. I'm not living in a state of fear, but I do put a mask on every time that I go out in public. Because that's the best tool that we have to get this situation under control. I would not be one to refuse to do such a small thing that helps to keep myself and those around me safe, and I honestly cannot understand why anyone wouldn't. As far as government intrusions on our freedom, there are plenty of them, but mask requirements are not one of them.

The so called "war on drugs" is absolutely a government intrusion on our rights as human beings. If they're used responsibly and under the right circumstances, drugs (including scheduled ones) can at least potentially benefit the user more than it harms them, and obviously the experience of being high can be fucking great =D. However, the only possible effect of not wearing a mask is getting sick, which is all risk and zero reward. Being sick fucking sucks, as everyone knows. And the only trip that anybody could possible take from not wearing a mask is a trip to the hospital.

So, I don't get how not wearing a mask is "freedom". Freedom to do what? The freedom to get sick, die, and/or spread a disease to people around you? That isn't freedom, it's just stupid, pointless, and irresponsible. Though, there is a serious constitutional rights, which is the fact that there apparently is a fucking secret police of sorts in the US. People have been arrested by agents of the federal government who carry no badges or identification, are arresting people, and taking them to undisclosed locations in unmarked vehicles.

That is a serious problem. This is what's done in dictatorships. People are arrested by unmarked, unidentified government agents, held without trial, and sometimes even killed. That absolutely is a violation of constitutional rights, and I would be just as outraged if the protesters being arrested had a cause that's opposite to my beliefs. Even if it was an anti-mask protest. Hell, even if it was something truly and utterly repugnant and evil like a white supremacist rally or something, I still would be outraged at this. Because it blatantly defies the constitution.

And once we head down that slippery slope, there's no telling what's going to happen. As years and decades pass, we could end up living in a country that's just as corrupt and oppressive as China. Where is the outrage about this though? People get all up in arms about regulations that infringe on their "freedom" to expose themselves to a virus and get sick, and the mask requirements are completely constitutionally valid. And they have a precedent. Such requirements were enacted during the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic, and they've been implemented during other outbreaks of disease. However, there is no precedent for secret police in the USA that I am aware of.
 
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Though, there is a serious constitutional rights, which is the fact that there apparently is a fucking secret police of sorts in the US. People have been arrested by agents of the federal government who carry no badges or identification, are arresting people, and taking them to undisclosed locations in unmarked vehicles.

That is a serious problem. This is what's done in dictatorships. People are arrested by unmarked, unidentified government agents, held without trial, and sometimes even killed. That absolutely is a violation of constitutional rights, and I would be just as outraged if the protesters being arrested had a cause that's opposite to my beliefs. Even if it was an anti-mask protest. Hell, even if it was something truly and utterly repugnant and evil like a white supremacist rally or something, I still would be outraged at this. Because it blatantly defies the constitution.
amen my friend.

this is happening in the u.s.: Federal officers using unmarked vehicles to detain protesters in Portland

Federal officers, clad in unmarked military fatigues and driving unmarked vans, have reportedly been abruptly grabbing and detaining protesters in Portland, Ore., as the tension between the forces sent to protect federal property and demonstrators continues.

government tyranny.

alasdair
 
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