F.U.B.A.R.
Bluelight Crew
According to the WHO, the last known case of smallpox was in 1977. The virus is now thought to only exist in laboratories. Sounds pretty eradicated to me...
Covid-19 Outbreak of new SARS-like coronavirus (Covid-19)
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novaveritas
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Not ethical to coerce or otherwise force people to undergo a medical procedures especially where the procedure offers no clear individual benefit.
Unethical as in Nurnberg level unethical. This is a strike off offense for physicians, as it is a procedure without informed consent. In the past people who cross this line have been executed for this and it is quite conceivable they will again in the future, I have no problem with, they shall be sentenced to be hung by the neck until they are dead.
If you can convince and encourage people to act altruistically that is OK but coercion is not.
sekio
Bluelight Crew
The evidence I see is very suspicious, there are massive crashes in the prevalence of certain diseases, and they all occur not that long after the introduction of effective vaccine programs for said diseases. And no other official explanation for why this might happen. Almost as if the vaccines were responsible for stimulating immune cell recognition of viral particles, leading to an acquired immune response against infections?
You think we'd be better off if vaccination was never developed and we were still limited to chemical drugs versus viral agents? Not only is the research, development, and production of vaccines basically a humanitarian effort, it's also responsible for advances in our understanding of our own immune system, not to mention things like ELISA and lateral flow immunoassay which act as rapid chemical detection tests and are responsible for the dipstick tests used everywhere.
I have no problem proudly admitting that I actually see vaccinations as one of many factors that raises our quality of living beyond short, brutal, reproduction-focused excuses for life, living in caves and wearing animal pelts. Yes, there are still some pockets of diseases that remain, and in recent years there indeed have been more cases of polio associated with the older oral polio vaccine, which carries a very small risk of the disease "reactivating" - I am told they have switched to a completely inactivated vaccine very recently in response to this. But when you compare the 350,000 cases per year at the beginning of the global campaign to eliminate polio via vaccination to the current day figure of around 300 cases per year, it's impossible to say that is not a major improvement.
That would probably be because in 1909 there waere a broad assortment of other nasty ways to get killed. Cancer is generally understood to be a result of chronic genetic damage exceeding the cell's ability to repair iitself, or defects in the "safety feature" of cells that causes them to self-terminate if they are too damaged. It takes either genetic predisposition or a sufficient exposure to genetic damage (which usually occurs at a limited rate). So generally it is a concern of the old.
The cowpox vaccine would have been widespread by then too, I think - smallpox is nasty after all. So this is really a frivolous correlation at best. It's like me making the claim that everyone who has an aortic aneurysm rupture has probably masturbated, or experienced the common cold. Because it's a safe bet everyone's masturbated and/or had a cold sometime during their life.
Q: Who has two thumbs and got vaccinated for influenza?
A: A lot of people, actually.
Isn't it an obvious argument to make that by vaccinating them against $HORRIBLE_CRIPPLING_DISEASE_DU_JOUR you are posing a public health benefit?
I know it's a slippery slope but a certain, utilitarian side of me sees mandatory vaccination as a potentially incrementally better version of the "vaccination is your choice, but participation in Public Society requires it, so either camp out in the sticks homeschooling your kids you birthed at home, or roll up your sleeve and ... done." Get doctors trained in sleight of hand that deliver a vaccination in the "dead space" of a syringe they use to draw a blood sample for, I dunno, blood typing or whatever excuse. End of the day, there's overall less deaths, so I'd hope....
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JGrimez
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I think people pushing vaccines often deny truthful information regarding how to improve one's immune system in other ways. I'm pretty convinced at this point that vaccines cause autoimmune issues on a larger scale than what is officially admitted. If vaccines were safe and effective then there would be zero resistance to official vaccinated vs unvaccinated studies. This is a sacred cow belief for many as they are already convinced of the effectiveness of the current vaccine schedule. Babies on day 1 of their lives do not require a Hep B vaccine.
Again people conflate the issues. I'm not anti-vaccination. I just think the industry has been co-opted for nefarious means. If I didn't witness so much scientific corruption then I would trust vaccines. And it should be up to the individual to decide for themselves whether they do more harm than good. There are many doctors and medical professionals who do not agree with the current schedule and claims emanating from the industry. Another red flag is that the medical debate is silenced.
Leaked mails reveal battle over Denmark's lockdown
I've posted a link to this article before, but I wanted to highlight the 4th paragraph below:
German Official Leaks Report Denouncing Corona as ‘A Global False Alarm’
novaveritas
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the last outbreak was in Birmingham UK in 1978 which delayed the eradication effort and killed a photographer, it escaped from a laboratory the lab manager later committed suicide.
No that is not an acceptable position ethically because the coercion involved breaches the informed consent principles. The idea that a medical procedure is a ticket for being part of 'society' whatever the fuck that is, is not valid, it is the expedient tyranny of the majority something your utilitarian position encourages. This is something many will continue resist in the strongest possible way, because it erodes the middle ground, it erodes gradated difference of opinion and leads to the two extreme sides shouting at each other no middle ground no judgement or nuance and both sides abusing State power to further their ends.
I Note you decided to conflate public health benefit for individual health benefit, the physicians duty is to his or her patient on an individual basis, not some nebulous concept of the greater good or public good.
You may think you are being oh so clever and that the ends justify the means, they don't. Break the trust between the patient and the physician at your peril, it is impossible to rebuild and it leads to not only worse individual patient outcomes but it impacts wider public health in an incredibly adverse way. Convince not coerce.
I really hope you actually go away and think about it properly and come back with a position that is your own true position, that has your line in the sand the line you are willing to stand for and if necessary fight and die for. Better still if your position allows other people to make their own choices and respects that fundemental right even if you think you know better. So I'd hope.
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F.U.B.A.R.
Bluelight Crew
Fuck me. 1977/1978. Big fuckin difference. Still well over 40 years ago. What is wrong with you people?
To all intents and purposes, smallpox has been eradicated by a simple vaccine. Is there a problem with that?
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novaveritas
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what is wrong with you people? Clearly I don't need to fuck you, you are doing a good job all by yourself. what do you want a prize for almost getting a fact right? everyone's a winner eh?
The point being made which you clearly missed, is that the last case was not natural it was a lab behaving in an incompetent unsafe way. Something the UK is very good at, foot and mouth disease devastated UK farming in 2001, then in 2007 the disease escaped from a government lab being run in a foolish and unsafe way and ran amok again..... smallpox exists in two labs officially but in Canada scientists have recreated horsepox and similar viruses straight from the gene sequence, exactly the same thing is easy to do with smallpox, no doubt your compatriots at Porton Down have played at doing this.
If you learn the story of smallpox eradication, rather than the bitesize, dumbed down version you will realise a lot of things in addition to the vaccine made the difference. The vast majority of people vaccinated against smallpox from about 1960 onwards gained absolutely no benefit but roughly one in 100,000 died from complications due to the vaccine. general vaccination made zero difference.Track and trace with decent surveilance did.
like you said it was only 40 years ago and the story is well documented.
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empeebee
Bluelighter
Simple solution.
Scientists/immunologists/demographics etc. demonstrate that vaccinations are in your best interest = get free (i.e. taxpayer funded) health care and can you intermingle with society.
Decide you know more/better than scientists/immunologists/demographics and choose not to receive a vaccine = home schooling for your kids, limited job opportunities, perpetual social distancing, etc.
Is it fair? No. Is it right? No. Is it the way it is/will be? Yes.
. Such is the nature of things...
./empeebee
Scientists/immunologists/demographics etc. demonstrate that vaccinations are in your best interest = get free (i.e. taxpayer funded) health care and can you intermingle with society.
Decide you know more/better than scientists/immunologists/demographics and choose not to receive a vaccine = home schooling for your kids, limited job opportunities, perpetual social distancing, etc.
Is it fair? No. Is it right? No. Is it the way it is/will be? Yes.
. Such is the nature of things..../empeebee
empeebee
Bluelighter
Medicine is NOT an exact science, everyone's physiology is different. What causes me to OD will have no effect on you...Medicine acts for the greater good. The adverse effects on 10 people is worth the sacrifice of saving 100,000 people. Jus' the way it is.
novaveritas
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That is not jus' the way it is at all, medicine does not act for the greater good. medicine is on the basis of the benefit of the individual patient. Otherwise greater good would prescribe sterilization to CF carriers, and DNR on ODing junkies.
With smallpox vaccine, we shall discuss that, because it is the prototypical poster child for vaccines that people tiresomely bring up again and again like acid reflux. For decades it was offering no benefit whatsoever to the recipients in the USA Europe and USSR for example yet killing roughly one in 100 000 recipients and harming roughly one in 2000 , the risk benefit ratio for these individuals was the relatively small number 1/2000 (chance of serious adverse event) divided by zero(chance of a beneficial outcome - not getting smallpox) which is an infinitely large number the wrong way. Most of the world were put in harms way and received what was for them a totally useless vaccination.
An unvaccinated individual poses no real threat to my health so I simply don't care what peoples immunization status is. People can pick and choose which vaccines they take and when, for example chickenpox vaccine is a complete waste of money and causes problems further down the line, but it is a great revenue generator for Merck, and as they successfully lobbied, should clearly be mandated. If individuals or their individual clinician choose to make an individual judgement not to follow the one size fits all corrupt BS from on high, so be it. Science is not a popularity contest.
I am personally pro-vaccine where it makes clinical sense, however holding this middle ground results in fighting antivax lentil burger loons on one side and authoritarian leaning utilitarian (statist) oxygen wasting fucks on the other side, neither who have convincing arguments that their highly polarized view is the correct one. People in one camp assume that people that oppose them must be in the other camp and therefore wrong, but there is no right or wrong if the two default options people gravitate towards are batshit extreme one way or the other,
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Deru
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What's so fake about a real, physical virus? How could that be fake? By that logic, are all viruses fake? Is this world fake? Are you fake?
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Nova, you keep saying the smallpox vaccine offers no benefit... are you saying that it didn't work and that smallpox was eradicated because of some other factor(s), and not because of vaccination? I get that there is a chance of it backfiring and causing harm or death, but that is acceptable in the case of such a deadly disease.
JGrimez
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novaveritas
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The benefit of smallpox vaccine is for about 10 years after vaccination in not getting smallpox when exposed to smallpox,
Therefore in almost every single example of general vaccination for small pox in the Soviet Union Europe and the Americas this benefit was not possible, because the disease was not endemic in those regions so the recipient did not and will never come into contact with the disease. Even if smallpox was introduced into these non endemic regions then the vaccine is effective post exposure. The effectiveness of the vaccine wanes rather quickly. so there was no need whatsoever to engage in preventative vaccination and a clear harm came from doing this.
So the risk benefit ratio is crudely:
benefit = chance of exposure(0) x chance of infection(0) x chance of serious effects from infection (1/10) = 0
risk= chance of serious adverse outcome from vaccine exposure (1/2000)
so the ratio is 0 to 1/2000 or abstractly the risk of harm /benefit is infinite but the wrong way.
So the other factors other than the simple vaccine story are key.
the first being that Variola minor version of smallpox (mortalilty 1/100 or less) had spread widely at the end of the 19th century, this disease was nowhere near as deadly as the Variola major smallpox (mortality 1/4), but exposure to Variola minor conferred life time immunity to major.
The second is that the tracking outbreaks and isolating using quarantine and then ring vaccination worked, Which brings us back to the smallpox vaccine being reasonably effective post exposure. if you vaccinate the contacts of people known to be infected with smallpox then they individually are likely to benefit, because.....they have been exposed to or are likely to be esposed to smallpox!!! and therefore can get a benefit from the vaccine.
The deployment of general vaccine strategies in smallpox was extremely stupid, and this was something that the epidemiologists who actually knew what they were doing, fought strongly against,
Use vaccines where there is a clear benefit, rather than some vague fear of unknown - what ifs?. The general vaccine strategy of people at not risk, gave a false sense of security padded the apparent efficiency of the vaccine and took vaccine doses and resources from people who would have benefited, massively slowing the eradication of the disease. There was a constant shortage of vaccine in North and central Africa and India where the smallpox vaccine was actually needed because a bunch of spoiled worried well in the global North had consumed the doses.
it is irrelevent to someone in Africa or India or for disease elimination if some fool in Alaska or Iceland is vaccinated against a disease that is not endemic in either Alaska or Iceland.
vaccine risk calculations work where there is an individual benefit, and there is no point trying to eliminate some diseases with some dumb as hell universal (highly profitable) universal vacciantion strategy, the flaws are there. vaccinated individuals become reservoirs and transmitters of the disease and a lot of the vaccines are just not good enough to eliminate the disease, measles being a good example. There is no civic duty to take part in some collective effort where the collective effort is doomed by the science itself to failure, so the calculation comes down to whether the individual can benefit, therefore free consent is the crux of the whole thing.
This topic is going to appear again with the fabled COVID-19 vaccine, because the only way obscene amounts of money can be made is by nudging and encouraging people using fear to take the vaccine when it really isn't needed.
When the fear push doesn't work, then shrill hysterical cries for mandatory vaccination will ring loudly.
The Oxford vaccine group (oxford vaccitech) are panicking that by the time their poorly conceived, poorly tested, rush job vaccine is ready, the disease will have gone. (like Zika, like SARS, Like MERS and like their dangerous Ebola vaccine) Hence the need to keep the COVID fear dialed to 11, because if the fear level drops to 9 or 10 then suddenly the safety shortcuts and lack of proper testing of the vaccine is going to be looked at very closely. They have cut many corners and it is not just the AZ and vaccine group insiders who know were these particular skeletons are buried.
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JGrimez
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Shady's Fox
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Whoever says the otherwise about world population either they're sheeps or anti-sheeps, I don't see it as something else. Listen, we have around 90.000 tons of Biohazard yearly add that to 2B trash/P/yr -- add that to 6B world's population and tell how it doesn't kisses? If you lie yourself that's fine but don't throw it onto others, we aren't obliged to you know, cousin.
TheLoveBandit
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a new image I must contend with now, as if my life weren't already full.
mal3volent
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I'm thinking cases will shoot up but deaths will be relatively low. Perhaps the virus is still highly contagious but less potent. Trump and others will say a second shutdown of the economy would be too dangerous, and people from all political backgrounds will agree because they don't want to be cooped up again .
PriestTheyCalledHim
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What is going to happen when coronavirus infections and deaths, skyrocket because of people out protesting, rioting, looting, and comitting arson?
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