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Optimizing effectiveness of a green tea extract (ECGC)/ 5-HTP regimen after MDMA use

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psood0nym

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I’d appreciate any corrections or refinements to my understanding of how to use ECGC with 5-HTP to replenish serotonin reserves after using serotonin releasing drugs.

It is my understanding that ECGC effectively inhibits aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase in both peripheral and nervous tissue, allowing for 5-HTP to cross the blood brain barrier before being destroyed. Since ECGC also crosses the BBB, I assume the 5-HTP that crosses will remain mostly intact in the brain until the ECGC itself is metabolized (its half life being only a few hours). Next, the disinhibited aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase metabolizes the 5-HTP to serotonin, thereby helping to replenish reserves. Is this basically accurate?

Also, for a healthy normal person what is the optimal dosage and timing for taking the two compounds for serotonin replenishment? I’m aware that B vitamin supplements are recommended to increase the absorption of ECGC, but not about how much their presence or absence augments dosages/timing.

Thanks.
 
Wish I had something to add...but I don't.

I too am very interested in this information, as I feel returning 5-HT levels to baseline more quickly would be the final "key" to making my MDMA use reasonably safe on a more regular basis.

Currently, I use 2.5mg Selegeline sublingually + 16g Sodium Ascorbate + 1000mg NAC + ALA + ALC + Ubiquinol + 7g Omega-3 taken 2 hours before 1-2 pills of MDMA to prevent neurotoxicity. Since trying this I have found that the MDMA depression / hangover I used to experience the days following is virtually ELIMINATED. And due to potentiation with Selegeline, the MDMA dosage required is significantly reduced from my previously OBSCENE doses of around 5 pills per night.

However, I haven't tested this on a long-term basis with frequent use, and am concerned about doing so. I'd REALLY like to get it figured out though, as I prefer MDMA as my poison of choice when out socializing over alcohol, psychedelics, etc. for a variety of reasons (amongst them that I have a rare form of auto-immune arthritis which flares violently with alcohol but is actually ameliorated due to the anti-inflammatory / immunosuppressive effects of MDMA).

The goal is to be able to use MDMA once weekly without negative long-term consequences. I feel that the neurotoxicity prevention regimen described above provides the PROTECTION I need, but doesn't fix the issue of neurotransmitter depletion. But to be honest, I don't know how quickly 5-HT is produced in the brain by the body -- more info on this would be great. Maybe this isn't an issue at all and 5-HT levels are back to where they start?

The scientific literature I have seen, at least in rats, seems to indicate that the reduced levels of measured 5-HT and 5-HIAA in the 1-2 weeks after MDMA correspond with "a reduced intensity of the staining in MDMA-treated brain slices, reflective of a marked reduction in serotonergic axonal density" -- in other words, axon loss (but not neuron death).

So, the questions are:

1. Do I need to even worry about restoring 5-HT levels, or do the neurotransmitters themselves come back to normal levels quickly (1-2 days) enough that if neurotoxicty is prevented, this isn't a concern?

2. If I do need to restore 5-HT levels, what is the most effective way to do so? Are there any issues with traditional 5-HTP supplementation?
 
Since I made this post I used this combination to try to stop brain zaps resulting from MDMA use and, later, DXM use (DXM being an SSRI). Of note, I was using ondansetron in conjunction with the DXM, which, in addition to being a 5-HT3 antagonist is a CYP2D6 substrate. In the four days I used the supplement combination and used no other drugs, the zaps seemed to decline just as I'd expect them to without any supplementation, suggesting that the two drugs, despite their theoretical utility in replenishing serotonin, were not working as intended. On top of that, the 5-HTP caused me GI distress at recommended dosage levels. The DXM used to stop the brain zaps on its own, for good, but now it just seems to delay their return for a day or so (which is what I'd expect it to do), at least at the 150 mg dose I've tried it at just to stop the zaps. Every time previously when I've dose DXM at 350 mg or higher during a period when I was experiencing zaps the zaps have totally and seemingly, permanently, abated.

Magnesium, fish oil, and B complex vitamins may be helping, but it's hard to differentiate their mitigating influence on the zaps from DXM's. I'd say that any influence any supplementation besides DXM that I've tried lately has had at best a moderate impact on the amount of time it takes for brain zaps to stop for me without taking any supplementation (three to four days).
 
For a few years my friends and I tried Selegeline with MDMA and it seemed to work, but we noticed we got less effect from the pills, so I did some research and now take Memantine with MDMA.

My friends and I have also noticed that medium or higher doses of caffeine with MDMA increase the mid week depression alot, so now we only drink weak cups of green tea while on pills, so no red bulls anymore on pills. we bring along tea bags to dance parties, and buy or beg for a cup of hot water from a vendor. Or if you are home or at a house party, we pre make the green tea, and drink it cold- very refreshing. Green tea gives a nice calm lift on MDMA and no down side, unlike red bulls that give us a big lift, and then make my girl friend very agitated a few hours later, while on pills. Green Tea is also a great antioxidant as you probably know.

We also make chicken vegetable soup a few hours before taking pills, as it is easy to eat after coming home after a big night, and high in natural antioxidants.
 
I forgot to add, I also take 5-HTP near the end of the night, to protect my brain, and increase my mood.

I must also say that Memantine reduces the mid meek blues from MDMA more than anything I have ever tried. Memantine also reduces the Amphetamine come down alot too, and Memantine itself seems to increase my mood when I am out, its like a drink or two, but without the messy feeling from alcohol, and no up/down effect like alcohol, because of Memantine's long half-life, about 60 hours!

I have been taking pills for over 10 years now, and I would never take MDMA or Amphetamine now, without Memantine nowadays. It is that good. The only down side is the price, but you only need 5 or 10 mg for good long protection. You can buy Memantine over the internet with no prescription.
 
Interesting -- I do see it mentioned in a comprehensive paper I have on MDMA neurotoxicity as a means to prevent neurotoxicity. Seems it wouldn't carry the some "overpotentiation" risks as Selegeline as well. May look into that. Thanks for the info!
 
Also, how frequently are you rolling? Have you noticed any long-term effects. I would really like to find a few people who have been rolling using a neuroprotective regimen more or less weekly for 2-3 years.
 
How did you guys get access to Selegiline and Memantine? Are they over-the-counter or prescription?

Also, thelearner, would you mind posting a link to that paper on MDMA neurotoxicity you were talking about?
 
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