Opioids Opioid withdrawal and pleasure

[Vierailija]

Hello

I suffer from an awful condition that causes consummatory anhedonia - inability to experience pleasure in the presence of pleasurable stimuli - and I'm trying to understand if this symptom occurs also in opiod withdrawal. It could help with understanding the pathological mechanism.

Can a person going through opioid withdrawal experience euphoric feelings or strong pleasure (when listening to music for example) or does the withdrawal completely block these? To elaborate a bit more...

The state of being in withdrawal itsel is obviously highly dysphoric and non-euphoric. But is it possible to induce pleasure by actively engaging in pleasurable activities like, say, getting an orgasm, listening to some euphoric music of your choice or eating a bunch of sweet chocolate?

It is my understanding that going through opioid withdrawal is partially the opposite of having an opioid high: whereas when high on opioids you can just lie down doing nothing and feel awesome, in withdrawal in this same scenario you feel like shit. If the opioid high is strong enough, there is very little reason to engage in rewarding activities as just being and doing nothing is so rewarding already. So how does this relate to the withdrawal - obviously doing stuff in general is very healthy as it gets the mind off the withdrawal and is healthy for the body as well, but is it possible to feel euphoria without drugs when going through opioid withdrawal? Take your favorite song that normally makes you feel euphoric without any drug - how does it work when you're in withdrawal? Also, how does acute vs. post-acute withdrawal syndromes compare in this sense?

Enormous appreciation for anyone who answers - I truly need this knowledge.

Thanks!

Vierailija

 

[OnlyEyes4Blues]

No euphoria. At the peak of wd I don't want to be touched or bothered.
Before symptoms of WD hit I try to go into la la land of not facing the facts that the next few days are going to suck.
But to answer your question I personally do not tend to feel moments of euphoria while WD.

 

[alovesupreme]

perhaps... in the early and middle stages of withdrawal you just feel miserable, pleasure is out of the question, you'd just as rather be sedated through it. but once you start to pull through to the other side, "over the hump" of the acute WDs, there is a period of real emotional lability as your neurochemistry returns to equilibrium; you can be feeling really kind of good one minute, then sad, depressed or anxious the next. once you get totally through acute withdrawal, emotions stabilize. at that point, you usually tend to have sort of a lingering anhedonia/lack of energy/etc that can last a fairly variable amount of time depending on how long you were on opiates (aka PAWS). once you pop through that to the other side, totally detoxed off opiates, done with PAWS, that can feel like a bit of a high in and of itself for a day or two. knowing you've got that monkey off your back, that you're free again. after that, you're just back to "normal" (if you remember what that feels like). anyway, just my experience, ymmv.

 

[Doody OD]

Actually that is a very interesting question, WDs are poxy everyone know that, we all feel terrible without the presence of our DOC.

However, if I'm picking you up correctly we could push the question to is it impossible to experience pleasure whist in a state of WD?

I don't think it is impossible, I think it is possible. If you look at it, I have felt terrible at various times of WD, but the mere presence of a script or evening collecting opiates have made a significant different. This show us the role of psychology in WD, ion that a change has occurred by no drug has been ingested yet?

When the topic of WD comes up here, people have spoken many times of a compulsion or urge to masturbate? At the point of climax or even before is the not some sense of pleasure? You have noted this yourself.

It is a very interesting topic for discussion and it could make a excellent thread, it the exact diagnosis you where give consummatory anhedonia? I have never encountered that term before.

I will try to think a bit more on it, and see if I can add anything to the above.
Cheers.

 

[Tryptamite]

I think it is possible to experience brief pleasures during WD. Obviously it depends on how badly you are suffering at the time but things like music and films can make you feel emotional and distract/cheer you up for a bit.

For me sex is out, probably impossible, but it is nice to cum, and its even nicer if you've to a girl to do it for you.

Opportunities to experience pleasure become more frequent as the WDs begin to subside.

If you are just WDing because you don't have money or there is a drought a 20e note or a call from your dealer to say he/she has the stuff and is bagging it up can make you feel euphoric.

 

[ferinox]

I always found music very moving during opiate withdrawal.

 

[emjay]

It's definitely possible to feel pleasure, though it's usually fleeting.

I have a strange effect of getting chills down my spine listening to music or watching TV up to several dozen times per day.

 

[Sprout]

I personally find caffeine a fantastic anti-depressant, though I consume in excess of 3g's a day so my thoughts are a little biased.

 

[Vierailija]

Thanks for the replies. Doody OD got my point quite right. I'm interested in the extent to which opioid WD decreases the intensity of pleasure. All your replies are already helping me to understand, but more clarity is needed. For example, the excitement of anticipation of something is not what I mean with pleasure. So let me further improve the wording of my question by a precise example.

Picture the following scenario: whatever troubles, questions, issues that you have in your mind - you manage to banish them. You find peace in mind, a relaxed state. Whatever pain and suffering you're going through, at least you're free of anxiety: you're obsessing over nothing and simply taking the life as it is with its pain and its pleasures - whatever it offers. Now, you're lying in your bed alone without any disturbances and you

a) masturbate and get an orgasm
b) eat your favourite sweets
c) listen to the most epic song

Now picture this in two scenarios: 1) acute WD and 2) post-acute WD

How do those three abc things make you feel, especially in comparison to how they make you feel without withdrawal?

The reason I'm trying to get more exact with my question is that I'm not interested in the emotional and cognitive aspects of WD. I understand how WD can make one unable to experience positive emotions and I also can see how it does not interfere with emotions at all: what I'm interested in is mere pleasure, euphoria. Not emotions. The reward of an orgasm is not emotion. It's just pleasure.

Doody OD: doctors rarely diagnose disorders that are not in their textbooks so no, I don't have a diagnosis. I've been to countless docs though. They just said they can't help, they have never heard of this. Consummatory anhedonia describes only the symptom, it's not a name of a particular disease. I clearly have a very significant physiological abnormality in my brain as evidenced by extremely odd (or diminished) reactions to many drugs of different types.

E: SproutOnSmack, CA has nothing to do with depression so your advice would probably be more helpful at some other thread

 

[Doody OD]

Vierialija, Can I ask what country you are based in? Would you be familiar with the work of Lacan? A French Psychoanalyst a area I'm very interested in, but the reason I'm saying this is that in Europe a lot of interesting work is being done on understanding addiction from a Lacanian perspective.

Now Lacan's work is very complex, I have be studying it for over 15 years at under-grad and post-grad levels, however, I still struggle with the complexity of this work. Basically, form this viewpoint we would be looking at addiction in relation to the persons subjective relationship to both pleasure and unpleasure, say taking the orgasm as model pleasurable excitations build up to a point that the start to become unpleasurable, at which point we have the orgasm. Think about it, how enjoyable would an orgasm which didn't end!!!

The French have a great term jouissance it relates to the experience of pleasure and pain in the same package, something we see a lot of in addiction as well as getting pleasure out of painful situations.

I don't know if any of that interests you, or if my attempt to explain it makes sense! However, if it does it would be worth checking out.

A lot of our suffering can be related to our relationship with pleasure, and desire of course, which is why I personally found your question so interesting.


If you don't mind I am very interested in your condition, may I ask you some questions about it? I would to here about how it affects you and what way your relationship is to pleasure is effected by it. Also you state that it is a physiological condition , is it recognised as that? Do you think it would be amenable to psychological interventions?

Of course if you would rather not answer such questions on a public board I totally understand.

 

[morphonorconic]

Due to my pattern(s) of opioid use, I've been through w/d at varying degrees of intensity so many times I can't count. In terms of neurological function and the dynamics of one's neuropharmacology during this phase, the effects are really quite interesting, albeit unpleasant.

Think of your brain like a clock. Heavy opioid use functions as a mechanism which restrains the pendulum while the inner gears continue to work, and pressure builds. Once the drugs stop, the restraint releases like a slingshot, sending the pendulum swinging with force toward the opposite end of the spectrum of subjective "feelings." This is your brain trying to recalibrate and achieve homeostasis. As the swaying continues there will be erratic alternating phases of elation and depression, optimism and pessimism etc. The physical discomfort remains fairly constant and is highly predictable, but the mind comes alive after having been suppressed, in ways that are both good and bad. Basically any stimuli will elicit a powerful response- like a nostalgic movie can move me in a really remarkable way. I've recorded myself playing guitar during such times and it was some of the most powerful music I've ever produced because the level of emotion I was pouring into it was unparalleled. Sappy commercials can bring tears to the eyes. Things that are marginally funny can lead to uncontrollable giggling. A thought about the effects of your behavior on your life or other's can lead to devastating sadness and regret, and really any negative thought can easily spiral out of control. Dreams IME are almost always intense and disturbing, sometimes terrifying. Etc etc

Anyway, anhedonia usually manifests after w/d, and is a primary symptom of PAWS, not a symptom of acute w/d. Of course when one is ill it is difficult [but not impossible] to derive pleasure from ordinary things, but that's normal. Anhedonia is a much more complex reactive psychological state.