What? You have the nerve to post something like this? This person is going through Hell On Earth! What are you thinking? You want this person to go through WD's for the next 30, 40 or more days? Suboxone is a pure cure for this and I strongly recommend it. Yeah, if it's possible, go cold turkey and get off the drugs but there are far and few people between us that have the strength to do so. Encourage this person to seek some help and get something to alleviate the WD's. Something is better than nothing! How many ppl have ended their lives because their WD symptoms caused so many problems? I'm sorry! But in this case I do not think anything as stupid as cold turkey is the answer.
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OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Opioids Opioid (Fentanyl) withdrawal
- Thread starter Badback10
- Start date
What? You have the nerve to post something like this? This person is going through Hell On Earth! What are you thinking? You want this person to go through WD's for the next 30, 40 or more days? Suboxone is a pure cure for this and I strongly recommend it. Yeah, if it's possible, go cold turkey and get off the drugs but there are far and few people between us that have the strength to do so. Encourage this person to seek some help and get something to alleviate the WD's. Something is better than nothing! How many ppl have ended their lives because their WD symptoms caused so many problems? I'm sorry! But in this case I do not think anything as stupid as cold turkey is the answer.
tricomb
Bluelight Crew
Doesn't take much nerve, it's pretty damn obvious that the OP wants nothing to do with opioid medications and just wants to be done with it.
Buprenorphine is a godsend for many addicts, however you should remember that this guy is a legit chronic pain patient who was not abusing their medication nor did they have problems with addiction, if you had read and understood my post and the context in this thread you'd notice that you missed quite a few details.
No one said anything about cold turkey, my suggestion to the OP was to slowly taper with fentanyl:
100mcg/hr --> 75mcg/hr --> 50mcg/hr --> 25mcg/hr --> 12.5mcg/hr
Now, MarDen, since you hold such strong opinions on this subject, you should read this thread start to finish and then tell me if you would still recommend buprenorphine maintenance therapy to the OP.
My advice was for him to gradually and comfortably taper with his doctors help, which I'm sure most people would agree is the first line of treatment for opioid narcotic discontinuation when prescribed for legitimate purposes.
Your advice labels him as a drug addict with substance abuse problems, forever ruining a legitimate chronic pain patients chances of getting back on the opioid medications he may need one day, and replaces dependency on fentanyl with dependency on buprenorphine which can be complete and utter hell to discontinue with PAWS lasting substantially longer than fentanyl's.
Buprenorphine is a godsend for many addicts, however you should remember that this guy is a legit chronic pain patient who was not abusing their medication nor did they have problems with addiction, if you had read and understood my post and the context in this thread you'd notice that you missed quite a few details.
No one said anything about cold turkey, my suggestion to the OP was to slowly taper with fentanyl:
100mcg/hr --> 75mcg/hr --> 50mcg/hr --> 25mcg/hr --> 12.5mcg/hr
Now, MarDen, since you hold such strong opinions on this subject, you should read this thread start to finish and then tell me if you would still recommend buprenorphine maintenance therapy to the OP.
My advice was for him to gradually and comfortably taper with his doctors help, which I'm sure most people would agree is the first line of treatment for opioid narcotic discontinuation when prescribed for legitimate purposes.
Your advice labels him as a drug addict with substance abuse problems, forever ruining a legitimate chronic pain patients chances of getting back on the opioid medications he may need one day, and replaces dependency on fentanyl with dependency on buprenorphine which can be complete and utter hell to discontinue with PAWS lasting substantially longer than fentanyl's.
tokenname
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2012
- Messages
- 2,056
I was actually thinking the same thing..tapering w/fentanyl makes more sense..beyond that switching to bupe would just be trading one substance for another..instead of allowing the OP what he seems to want..which is to be done with it all...just my 2 cents. i'm so broke after this move it's ridiculous...
OP..i absolutely feel for you and wish you the best. hang in there..It does Not last forever..even tho it feels like it now...
~token
Coraline
Bluelight Crew
I agree a taper off fentanly would be the best step for the Op. he is already use to the medication and doesn't want to change to a different substance. I am sure he is aware of his options.
A fentanyl taper would be the easiest considering they can be cut a little at a time to meet his taper.
A fentanyl taper would be the easiest considering they can be cut a little at a time to meet his taper.
anonymousjoe
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2003
- Messages
- 197
First off, I wish to thank you for serving our country, I wish that the VA did a better job of treating our veterans. I personally know someone who at the VA Houston was treated for an addiction to IV dilaudad (appx 32mg / day) and benzo wd. They perscribed him 8mg subs and tapered him over 10 days using ativan. They sent him home with a pocket full of suboxone and no benzos. The day after he went home he went into HARD benzo WD and they refused to perscribe him anything or to further taper him. He is still on 8mg suboxone almost 2 years later, so I know the VA will do it. Is that an option with your doctor?
macd610
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2012
- Messages
- 590
I completely forgot about Bad posting this, the fact that his MD decided to do a taper in the end.
Now that this info has been refreshed in my little brain
, I agree that you would be better off sticking to this regiment.Do you feel like it may be helpful to taper more slowly, or do you just wanna get it done ASAP?Tri (or anyone else who knows)...Just out of curiosity, if one is prescribed Suboxone to get off opiates/opioids, will this haunt them the rest of their lives? Would it affect their medical treatment if say, 5 years later they break a leg?
Coraline
Bluelight Crew
I think if you go to a doctor you will never see again and get treatment it should not haunt you.
If you break a leg they will treat you and control your pain. If they know think you are a drug addict then they maybe a little more incline to watch you better.
I have been to the hospital in the past year a few times and they will treat your pain. Last time there was a sign saying tell your nurse about your pain or something like that.
Hospitals treat pain more aggressively now because it is a vital sign. Subjective but vital.
Last time I went for my tests they did not treat me like an addict. I was totally honest with them and what I took. They treated me better if not more because they knew I had tolerance and my pain was controlled. I didn't nod but I had no pain.
If you break a leg they will treat you and control your pain. If they know think you are a drug addict then they maybe a little more incline to watch you better.
I have been to the hospital in the past year a few times and they will treat your pain. Last time there was a sign saying tell your nurse about your pain or something like that.
Hospitals treat pain more aggressively now because it is a vital sign. Subjective but vital.
Last time I went for my tests they did not treat me like an addict. I was totally honest with them and what I took. They treated me better if not more because they knew I had tolerance and my pain was controlled. I didn't nod but I had no pain.
Bluefrogger
Bluelighter
Hey there Rich (Badback10),
I say as a CP patient who knows what you're going through, HANG IN THERE! Be strong, there are going to be good and bad days always with chronic pain. (And while going through w/d) Being on pills handed to me for over 10 years now, I really, really, wish too that I had my old self back. I've been tapering over 2 years now and am still not close - but, I am getting there! The pain or w/d gets bad on some days and then even worse. In the end though "it doesn't make sense to trade one (now found) addiction (or crutch if you will), for another" you're getting the quick taper shaft but you do have the intelligence to look for a little help, (if you need it). If you can get through this, then you know that you can deal with you're pain. And Im betting that we will learn to deal with the pain in better ways in the long run than taking pills every day. Please be patient and you're day Will come! Say NO to the subs. Check in when you can.
Hope youre having a good day and save strength for the bad ones!
Blue
I say as a CP patient who knows what you're going through, HANG IN THERE! Be strong, there are going to be good and bad days always with chronic pain. (And while going through w/d) Being on pills handed to me for over 10 years now, I really, really, wish too that I had my old self back. I've been tapering over 2 years now and am still not close - but, I am getting there! The pain or w/d gets bad on some days and then even worse. In the end though "it doesn't make sense to trade one (now found) addiction (or crutch if you will), for another" you're getting the quick taper shaft but you do have the intelligence to look for a little help, (if you need it). If you can get through this, then you know that you can deal with you're pain. And Im betting that we will learn to deal with the pain in better ways in the long run than taking pills every day. Please be patient and you're day Will come! Say NO to the subs. Check in when you can.
Hope youre having a good day and save strength for the bad ones!
Blue
I didn't miss any details, I only disagreed with you. I've followed this post from it's start.
As the OP stated he has been using more and more Fentanyl and that he ran out a week early and his doctor would not prescribe early and that after calling and begging and pleading his doctor said he would have him taper from 75 to 50 to 25 to 12.5 or 12. The OP wasn't sure about the last dose but he stated that this would take place over aprox a three or four week time. The OP also stated he's been on narcs for chronic pain relief for up to 18 years. Now, how many people have you known in your life that can taper from a long lasting use like the OP in a few weeks? I myself was not strong enough and that's the reason I strongly, so strongly believe in Suboxone.
Oh My! As I stated before also I have read this thread from the beginning. That's why I am so passionate about this thread. I spent an hour yesterday guessing where the OP lived from some of the stuff he wrote in his texts. He is in VA. Virginia! He is not a Veteran! He is in VA/Virginia and at one time the doctor told him to call him if things got ugly and when he did he got the nurse and she told him to call the UVA (University of Virginia) so I called a few Doctors that prescribe Suboxone and found a clinic that was accepting new patients and (Once Again) I am only recommending Suboxone. I totally understand and have told the OP the getting on buprenorphine would be trading one addiction for another but from my experience it's much easier to keep your doses correct on Bupe than when you are on strong narcs as you do not develop a tolerance. That is why the OP stated he was done with Pain Meds because he found he was using more and more and was running out before it was time for a refill. I as well as many others on pain meds have been through the same BS WD Roller Coaster. That's why the OP said he was done and why once again I was only offering another alternative.
One more time, the OP has been on Narcs for pain for up to or over 18 years and is still suffering from severe chronic pain. So, lets say he weans off the Fentanyl. After a few months of WD's like tremors, shakes, not sleeping, you know the rest. What will happen then? He will still be in severe chronic pain which will only lead him back to finding a solution and maybe back to Fentanyl or something else which possibly might lead him back into the same situation he is in now. With my suggestion he would not go through the Hell he is going through now and would be able to have some relief from pain and if so in the future he decided he didn't need the medication for pain he would be able to taper off the suboxone over a few month period.
What did you miss? He is a RX Drug addict! He didn't plan on this happening but unfortunately it's a chronic problem here in the USA. Happened to me and so many other people I know. There are latterly millions of people here in the US that are hopelessly addicted to RX meds legitimately prescribed by Doctors that know nothing about addiction. I understand that if on his record there is a record of him being prescribed Suboxone some Doctors would never want to prescribe him pain meds again. When and if the time comes he does desire and needs strong pain meds for pain he'll just have to find a Doctor that understands. Last thing... PAWS coming of Suboxone can be horrible but with a Doctor that knows what he is doing it would work fine and he would experience minimal PAWS. I was on Subs for almost 3 years. I started at 32mg a day. Huge amount! I was able to taper and taper and taper till I was only taking 1mg every other day and I experienced minimal PAWS.
I dunno! Sorry I jumped at you but I'm so passionate about this subject. There is no reason for anyone coming off of hard core narcotics to have to live in the type of HELL the OP was describing. I was only, from my personal experience telling the OP another solution.
While I was on Suboxone I unfortunately caught Pneumonia and was Hospitalized for 10 days. During that time I was on Dilaudid IV. (I had an abscess in my lung) The Doctors at the Hospital as well as my Suboxone Doctor knew. The medical community is pretty hip to suboxone and understand that when a patient truly need pain meds they are prescribed. Knowing about a patients prior history only makes the Doctors think carefully before prescribing pain meds longer then truly needed.
Bluefrogger
Bluelighter
Withdrawl
Finding a doctor that understands? That a hard thing to do these days even with legitimate pain. You Must have better luck than I have in the past (or the OP has had lately) and that's what we're talking about here! Until the OP pipes in and tells us, this won't help! Also, what good is it for anyone who wants off the drugs to taper and taper for years and still have to have w/d's or the chance of worse. They will still have pain, still have to cope, etc.
Someone asked earlier? "After" being on Subs, if you decide to go back to opiates, is it not that they work the same? Or is it that, if you "really need" to have something for pain, that the Subs wont let the opiates work? I read about this and discussed all the issues of gettikg off the meds with my PM doc, I don't remember exactly how it works but my PM doc said "with the pain you have - I wouldn't Rx it to you. You need to be able to manage you're pain, not switch out one pill, for another." With the Subs route, you're still dosing daily, and constantly afraid if you run out, or lose them, whatever, is still the same anxiety and its a pain in the Ass . . . all in itself.
Blue
This is just my thought, but:
Finding a doctor that understands? That a hard thing to do these days even with legitimate pain. You Must have better luck than I have in the past (or the OP has had lately) and that's what we're talking about here! Until the OP pipes in and tells us, this won't help! Also, what good is it for anyone who wants off the drugs to taper and taper for years and still have to have w/d's or the chance of worse. They will still have pain, still have to cope, etc.
Someone asked earlier? "After" being on Subs, if you decide to go back to opiates, is it not that they work the same? Or is it that, if you "really need" to have something for pain, that the Subs wont let the opiates work? I read about this and discussed all the issues of gettikg off the meds with my PM doc, I don't remember exactly how it works but my PM doc said "with the pain you have - I wouldn't Rx it to you. You need to be able to manage you're pain, not switch out one pill, for another." With the Subs route, you're still dosing daily, and constantly afraid if you run out, or lose them, whatever, is still the same anxiety and its a pain in the Ass . . . all in itself.
Blue
Sorry for the delay in posting any update that being said i was completely off fentanyl and my pain level started getting worse. It now takes me between 30 - 40 minutes to get out of my bed and crawl to my bathroom. I had to go back one more time to the same pm asshole yesterday and he put me on nucynta 75 and burtans patch 10 mg. I can tell you together or alone they dont do anything for my pain. Unfortunately the fen worked. Im back to having numb ankles my right foot also goes numb from sitting so driving is out of the question. I do have an appt with a new pm doc this Friday and another on the 13th. Im also looking for a pain therapist to help me deal with everything i have lost due to my back. I will keep in touch plus without meds that work i barely walk around.
Thank you all.
If I knew of something that would work i would go get it I cant take much more
Thank you all.
If I knew of something that would work i would go get it I cant take much more
Just keep hope that your new PM doctor will be good and understanding. It's always a toss up til you actually meet the person, but there are plenty of genuinely good doctors out there.
If things are getting that unbearable, maybe a trip to the ER wouldn't be such a bad idea seeing that your ex - pm doctor isn't treating you effectively any longer?
As always, keep us posted, and I hope you get towards feeling better asap.
If things are getting that unbearable, maybe a trip to the ER wouldn't be such a bad idea seeing that your ex - pm doctor isn't treating you effectively any longer?
As always, keep us posted, and I hope you get towards feeling better asap.
New PM doc did not help VA sucks I did get another opinion letting me know my back is bad! My current PM doc has not returned any calls from me or my wife from Wednesday. I'm doing my best to deal with the pain but I had to see someone professorially about depression, nothing about this was or is easy!
taylor_105
Bluelighter
Withdrawal as you know is not pleasant ....It usually takes 4 to 7 days to get the drug out of your system. For treating symptoms I found over the counter dextromethorphan (its in cough syrup) It helps with cravings irritable problems that occur. It also helps with stomach discomfort, there's been investigations that it can help with withdrawal of pain meds. It is NMDA receptor antagonists. So it can be abused and produce symptoms such as those of a hallucinations,
Also I found that Pseudoephedrine helps with the constant urge to urinate ( it has also been successful in treating stress incontinence by increasing the pressure (tension) exerted by the muscles of the bladder neck and the urethra, which helps retain the urine within the bladder.) but again be carefully when using the above med. Make sure one you don't have any medical problems that unable you to take the above meds. and 2 make sure you don't abuse them.
Antihistamine works great for irritable and restlessness. Also if possible alteast try to get out of the house go for a walk. Because exercise is another great weapon in the battle of withdrawal. Your body produces endorphins which is also what the pain meds do to a larger degree. So by producing your own will help your body re balance its self. And if you have access to sauna they are good helps you sweat out alot of the toxins in your body. But I stress strongly to go to your doctor. There are medicines that are out there that work to reduce the withdrawal one being wellbutin, suboxone. Because (not so much wellbutin) but others like suboxone, valium they just lead to dependence on them. Another problem I had with my withdrawal is lack of energy, motivation, chronic fatigue and weakness and low testosterone levels. I am still battling with those. I drink an energy drink through out the day and take supplements for testosterone such as tribulus etc... they don't help as much as I would like but its getting me through ... hopefully my body will balance itself out soon and I can get back to my normal self. I have been 1month off this time for good. I don't want to go through this ever again. And finally another thing that help me ALOT was watching motivational movies I like action movies and by watching them gave me motivation to get out and exercise. Hopefully this is a help to someone but I again stress strongly to talk to your doctor. He understands and he will be glad to help.
Also I found that Pseudoephedrine helps with the constant urge to urinate ( it has also been successful in treating stress incontinence by increasing the pressure (tension) exerted by the muscles of the bladder neck and the urethra, which helps retain the urine within the bladder.) but again be carefully when using the above med. Make sure one you don't have any medical problems that unable you to take the above meds. and 2 make sure you don't abuse them.
Antihistamine works great for irritable and restlessness. Also if possible alteast try to get out of the house go for a walk. Because exercise is another great weapon in the battle of withdrawal. Your body produces endorphins which is also what the pain meds do to a larger degree. So by producing your own will help your body re balance its self. And if you have access to sauna they are good helps you sweat out alot of the toxins in your body. But I stress strongly to go to your doctor. There are medicines that are out there that work to reduce the withdrawal one being wellbutin, suboxone. Because (not so much wellbutin) but others like suboxone, valium they just lead to dependence on them. Another problem I had with my withdrawal is lack of energy, motivation, chronic fatigue and weakness and low testosterone levels. I am still battling with those. I drink an energy drink through out the day and take supplements for testosterone such as tribulus etc... they don't help as much as I would like but its getting me through ... hopefully my body will balance itself out soon and I can get back to my normal self. I have been 1month off this time for good. I don't want to go through this ever again. And finally another thing that help me ALOT was watching motivational movies I like action movies and by watching them gave me motivation to get out and exercise. Hopefully this is a help to someone but I again stress strongly to talk to your doctor. He understands and he will be glad to help.
I think you should consider suboxone (buprenorphine) it works for pain management and you don't feel like your head is in the clouds. It makes me feel better than I did even before drugs when my brain chem was (semi) normal!
For WD my favorite is benzos. But be careful not to swap addictions. Also if you use amphetamines, meth seems to help me not care about the WD. I know a lot will disagree and say it will only make things worse, but hey, its personal preference.
For WD my favorite is benzos. But be careful not to swap addictions. Also if you use amphetamines, meth seems to help me not care about the WD. I know a lot will disagree and say it will only make things worse, but hey, its personal preference.
Bluefrogger
Bluelighter
I've been cutting down on my pain meds. Opana is the problem RX and I've gotten a lot of good help here. Also nice to know that I wasn't the only one to feel worms crawling under my skin! Thanks Everyone! ! !