Opiate anti-depressent properties

[yoyoman]

i mean, its cool and all, discussing all this, of course..

but arguing? about what?? "you shouldn't take opiates!".

Now, progressive talk, ya know, somebody abusing them, and you wanna seriously help 'em out, is one thing, but to argue against "opiates being antidepressants", is.... ahem.. i'm sorry but, Silly.

Maybe for most? bad idea, for most? who knows, but for some, like i said.. depends on each person..

you can come up with all the different scientific discoveries for ADHD, dopamine, amphetamine, etc etc..

I've actually finally got a good doctor, just by asking q's alone, said stuff like, you sound a little narcoleptic, grey area - i was like YEAH! always thought some grey area cause...

basically, only things i'd want to take on a regular basis, are the things that have me most stable & "sober". Functional. Knowlege abotu side effects, long term effects, all of that, of course..

but what works for me works, always trying to use the least amount of everything, just the necessities.. ya know. Label me as "shows some narcoleptic like symptoms, ADHD inattentive subtype 9.3, low dopamine here, high whatever there, and this and that ..too, and..", sure.. but...

it just comes down to what works, and what i'm willing to risk with any side effects long term effects - shiit.. SSRI's, all these new drugs, .... long term effects? they don't know....

actually, they're starting to know.... this BLer.. takin' prozac for years, always seemed to "pro-SSRI" talking to her (nice/great girl btw!) , so then, notice... posts.. asking about.. parkinson like jitters, etc etc.. had to stop taking it.

oh god, PAXIL HELL!! dont get me started, bhwhaaha.. if you just type, "paxil", into google, it used to be like the 2nd link, now i see it the last link on the first page - ONE.. of the MANY.. paxil withdrawal hell sites - horrible shit IMO..

but - it works for some people! all comes down to each individual..

 

[fastandbulbous]

I quite like the idea of having a condition named after me (probably some sort of gobshite disorder! )

 

[Dr.Heckyll]

If you look for sustainable antidepressant opioids, look for opioids selective for the delta receptor. They have been shown to be hardcore antidepressants.

 

[Boiling in Acid]

maybe some chemist will tweak out an Selective Endorphins Reuptake Inhibitor??

SERI....

possible?

 

[Coolio]

What about endorphin/opioid prodrugs?

 

[motiv311]

to me suboxone makes a great anti-depressant and opiate (opiod) whatevers

 

[hussness]

If you look for sustainable antidepressant opioids, look for opioids selective for the delta receptor. They have been shown to be hardcore antidepressants.

^This is by far the most interesting post I've come across in this thread. Do you have any references for that? That sounds seriously cool, if you could tweak it to the point where it would work right.

 

[Dr.Heckyll]

^Just one of many: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16809477&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

 

[brians07]

Is there any research being done on the anti-depressent effects of opiates?

Like major pharmaceutical companies or just regular chemists trying to synth some opiate that gives you all the euphoria, motivation, and overall wellbeing, yet does not have the horrible addiction attached to it.

Lemme give you my background. I take amphetamines for ADHD. My mother thinks I get depressed sometimes, I think it's normal. My behavior is a bit unstable (ADHD hyper kid). My moodyness and unstableness is mostly due side-effects of the amps I think. Lack of sleep, bad eating habits. As well as occasional other polydrug use. My other problem is shyness. I can be social when I want to, but it's hard and often uncomfortable for me. I would like to be less shy. I also lack alot of motivation with things i'm not interested in. I don't have a strong work ethic. I hate doing alot of things like school and taking out the trash (yeh, somewhat normal, but I know alot of kids who feel rewarded for doing things like this.)

So to make me a bit more stable, happier about things, more motivated, and less shy, I have tried a few anti-depressents which really made me unhappy. Wellbutrin, Strattera, zoloft. The wonder drug for me is OPIATES!

Opiates for me do so many good things. I would def choose to be on it everyday if it was not so addictive.

-It makes me happy
-It clears any depression I have
-It motivates me better than amphetamines in most ways. Amphetamines always help me learn and study better, but opiates make work and annoying tasks way more fun, easier, enjoyable, and more rewarding than amphetamines. The combination of opiates and amphetamines are perfect for me. Happiness and the ability to focus and learn.
-It makes me social, and happy to socialize
-It stimulates my appetite and makes eating wonderful
-It makes sleep wonderful
-It makes me compassionate and caring with people I love
-It makes life better while I am high on it
-It kiss most pain


I just believe that some chemist could tweak an opiate chemical to make the perfect anti-depressent with very few side effects that would work for me. I know that some people do not gain these effects from opiates. But maybe some new opiate chemical could make most people feel the way I do.

so does anyone know if research is being done on this subject? I would dedicate my life to this, I just can't grasp chemistry.

DOn't forget Opiates cause constipation

 

[brians07]

^ opiates wont cause long term depression directly, but both opiates and benzodiazepines can cause acute depression with use, long term use could easily cause depresison, if the root cause is a lack of activity that used to be filled by endorphin activity that is no longer present even with opiate use, since opiates dont replace endorphins in a 1:1 manner.

Don't forget mixing Opiates and benzos, either in high doses, Will cause youre respistory to become depressed (slowed breathing), so if u fall asleep with all too much of both in ur body u might not wake up increased chances if u add alcohol to the mixture and or dxm

 

[qwe]

Morphine is not an endogenous compound.
Do not spread misinformation anywhere near me.

sigh. there was a bluelight article posted, as well as in the New Scientist, and of course, a quick google search turns this up. i apologize for the "misinformation"

Endogenous formation of morphine in human cells by Poeaknapo C, Schmidt J, Brandsch M, Drager B, Zenk MH. Biocenter, Martin Luther University. Halle-Wittenberg, Weinbergweg 22, 06120 Halle, Germany. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2004 Sep 28;101(39):14091-6

ABSTRACT
Morphine is a plant (opium poppy)-derived alkaloid and one of the strongest known analgesic compounds. Studies from several laboratories have suggested that animal and human tissue or fluids contain trace amounts of morphine. Its origin in mammals has been believed to be of dietary origin. Here, we address the question of whether morphine is of endogenous origin or derived from exogenous sources. Benzylisoquinoline alkaloids present in human neuroblastoma cells (SH-SY5Y) and human pancreas carcinoma cells (DAN-G) were identified by GC/tandem MS (MS/MS) as norlaudanosoline (DAN-G), reticuline (DAN-G and SH-SY5Y), and morphine (10 nM, SH-SY5Y). The stereochemistry of reticuline was determined to be 1-(S). Growth of the SH-SY5Y cell line in the presence of (18)O(2) led to the [(18)O]-labeled morphine that had the molecular weight 4 mass units higher than if grown in (16)O(2), indicating the presence of two atoms of (18)O per molecule of morphine. Growth of DAN-G cells in an (18)O(2) atmosphere yielded norlaudanosoline and (S)-reticuline, both labeled at only two of the four oxygen atoms. This result clearly demonstrates that all three alkaloids are of biosynthetic origin and suggests that norlaudanosoline and (S)-reticuline are endogenous precursors of morphine. Feeding of [ring-(13)C(6)]-tyramine, [1-(13)C, N-(13)CH(3)]-(S)-reticuline and [N-CD(3)]-thebaine to the neuroblastoma cells led each to the position-specific labeling of morphine, as established by GC/MS/MS. Without doubt, human cells can produce the alkaloid morphine. The studies presented here serve as a platform for the exploration of the function of "endogenous morphine" in the neurosciences and immunosciences

 

[qwe]

I'd think carefully before posting something like that. A friend of mine who's just quit a 15 year opiate habit about 6 months ago is still suffering both physically & mentally because his biochemistry still hasn't returned to it's pre opiate state

well, consider that someone who is using opiates for depression is going to use very differently, with very different dosages, than someone using recreationally.

i'm not disputing that chronic high doses cause brain damage. but therapeutic or infrequent recreational doses don't seem to cause such problems

 

[qwe]

If you look for sustainable antidepressant opioids, look for opioids selective for the delta receptor. They have been shown to be hardcore antidepressants.

please cite some articles for me? i'd like to look into it

 

[gabagool]

By 'some sort of adverse effects' I didn't mean 'really really shitty'. I was never put on SSRI for longer than 2 weeks though, that's it, no fun for me.

Let's leave it out, adverse effects after antidepressant discontinuation (which doesn't account for all drugs from this group but let's generalize) and, let's say, some similarity to opioid discontinuation (like 'being shitty', we're exaggerating anyway) - this doesn't prove opioid antidepressant usefulness anyway.

The beautiful aspects of opiate usage you described had been also described by Fried Man in his first post. I agree with both of you that opiates make everything easier. And so does amphetamine, benzodiazepines or marihuana for other people, unlike true antidepressant. If you want to treat your depression with opiates, that's OK. But all you do is looking for nonsensical excuses to abuse the drug. Can't you face it? Probably not if you can't see the difference between antidepressants and opiates.

I know SSRIs don't work for me or I'm not able to wait two months for them to starting working. I know an opiate does its job but it doesn't get rid of my depression. Come on, even after you forget about your problems for a few hours, it's even worse the day after if not immediately. I would have to take opiates a few times every day to maintain this feeling and I'm telling you it's not normal life. An antidepressant helps you fight depression and maintain stable mood after discontinuance.

Whats the deal here adder? The only thing youre interested in is people "admitting" they take drugs?? Whats that do for you, huh? Make you feel bettter about yourself because others admit they have problems. Taking an opiate is "taking a drug" when taking celexa isn't ? How the hell do you figure that out? I take celexa, it works for shit. If I stop, i start to get all fucked up. If you are depressed you can't understatnd what these people are talking about. And I don't think you are. A drug is a drug. ANd if you take one that doesn't give you pleasure, its still a drug. Capice? If me and anyone else who has depression and takes opiates and gets work done, whys that bother you? Why? I don't take this drug, I feel like shit, I get nothing done. I take this drug, I get work done, I get my shit done, and BONUS, it feels good too! AND I still can't get any doctor to admit that celexa, well butrin etc, etc, is worse for you physically than poppy tea. Why do you think most of the bad aspects of taking opiates are behaviors? Even heroin is relatively physically safe. ITs the behaviors that pose dangers. We are happy when we take opiates, youre happy by wanting others to call themselves drug addicts. We're even.

 

[adder]

I think telling you that I took your fucking paroxetine for 6 months for severe depression and social phobia and suffered from very unpleasant withdrawal symptoms will shut you up. And telling you that I've been curing myself with drugs such as morphine, pethidine, and dextromoramide will shut you up even more.

You cited some old post of mine as you see, things change day by day. Even though you should notice I didn't admit there SSRIs are the ultimate antidepressants. Opiates aren't either. I'm currently tapering off morphine with some help of codeine (currently 200mg/day). It's 1.27 am here and I can't sleep. Is this your wonderful drug for depression? Opioids are brilliant as long as you take them daily combined with benzodiazepines to boost their positive effects on mood. Quitting them is harder than quitting strong SSRIs like paroxetine because you crave for opiates and I never craved for paroxetine, just waited for that nightmare to end and forget about the drug. And notice I'm not comparing withdrawal symptoms now which physically are more severe with paroxetine.

If me and anyone else who has depression and takes opiates and gets work done, whys that bother you? Why? I don't take this drug, I feel like shit, I get nothing done.

Whats the deal here adder?

You tell me because I don't get what you mean. I never wrote it bothered me that someone took any drug because it's not my business and I don't really care. All I do here is presenting my views on variety of topics.

PS. You really don't have to teach me how opiates or antidepressants works. And please think twice before judging someone else downhill like you did with me. If I had to judge you after your last post, the opinion wouldn't be too pleasant to read and you would probably respond with more exclamation marks and capital letters (which you really didn't have to this time either).


One thing I'd like to add - you certainly either didn't read all my posts carefully or didn't read all of them at all.

 

[qwe]

I think telling you that I took your fucking paroxetine for 6 months for severe depression and social phobia and suffered from very unpleasant withdrawal symptoms will shut you up. And telling you that I've been curing myself with drugs such as morphine, pethidine, and dextromoramide will shut you up even more.

You cited some old post of mine as you see, things change day by day. Even though you should notice I didn't admit there SSRIs are the ultimate antidepressants. Opiates aren't either. I'm currently tapering off morphine with some help of codeine (currently 200mg/day). It's 1.27 am here and I can't sleep. Is this your wonderful drug for depression? Opioids are brilliant as long as you take them daily combined with benzodiazepines to boost their positive effects on mood. Quitting them is harder than quitting strong SSRIs like paroxetine because you crave for opiates and I never craved for paroxetine, just waited for that nightmare to end and forget about the drug. And notice I'm not comparing withdrawal symptoms now which physically are more severe with paroxetine.

im not sure this is relevent. the discussion is around using opioids for depression forever, so withdrawal and addiction is not an issue

 

[adder]

Where has it been written this discussion is so narrow? And what a life is it if you're put on a medicine for depression forever? Moreover what a medicine is it? Tolerance for opioids build up quite fast so how do you imagine using them for depression for life? This is seen even with a drug as weak as codeine.

I can see a lot of topics brought up from using classic opiates daily through selective delta agonists to kappa antagonists. So what's the problem?

 

[qwe]

^extreme tolerance and dependence is certainly an issue with recreational dosing

as ive posted before, therapeutic dosing (whether for pain or depression) is quite a different matter

there are many people put on opioids for pain permanently

 

[sarbanes]

well, for me, I love tramadol. opiate & pro drug opiate agonist, and acute mild SSRI. Also leads to rel of dopamine in NAc. It is surprising and totally beyond me that this substance is not controlled in US. If you offered me a bag of oxy's or a bag of trammies, i'd have to go with those trammys. Now, I realise many peeps find this hard to believe, but for us experienced trammy lovers, it is 100% true. We get a nice clean nod, and a nice boost from our trammies.

 

[Reminisant B]

I find tramadols fun but they seem to decrease cognition to a much higher degree than traditional opiates. Rebound effects of traditional opiates may cause pain etc but do not cause a decrease in mental abilities, tramadol has less rebound pain or unhappiness but makes me feel stupid and very slow.

Also taking for example an opiate whilst at work (although no recommended) is possible, Tramadol at work ruins the day. (e.g 60mg DHC or 50/100mg tramadol)

But as mentioend above everyones reaction is different.