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Opiate anti-depressent properties

As people have said, opiates can induce dysphoria in people, in acute clinical settings.

The differenence between a euphoriant and an antidepressant can be though of like; a euphoriant will always add +3 to you're mood. If you were a 1 before you took it, you're a 4 afterwards; if you're a -2 before you took it, you're a +1 afterward.

An antidepressant just stops you being -5 and -4 for extended periods of time.
 
what about a pure mu-1 agonist? i am forgetting where i read this, but i believe it was somewhere one this board...that a pure mu-1 agonist would give all the positive effects of opiates (brightened mood, if you want to call it that, analgesia, etc) without tolerance/addiction. is this true, and is anyone working toward synthesizing a pure mu-1 agonist?

it seems like it would be a candidate for an antidepressant, if one really does not develop tolerance.
 
What do you think causes addiction? Brightened mood or dysphoric effects?
 
Neither; dopamine mediated synaptic plasticity...

...MDMA isn't addictive to 99% of individuals
 
Can we define an anti-depressent? For me, I think a drug is an anti-depressent if it takes away one's depression, simply put.

Today's anti-depressent's like prozac or lexapro seem more like mood stabalizers, so you are not exactly euphoric, but not depressed either.
 
It seems some peoples idea of an anti-depressant is a drug that gets you really high and thus happy.
That isn't what an anti-depressant is.
 
Fried Man said:
Is there any research being done on the anti-depressent effects of opiates?

Like major pharmaceutical companies or just regular chemists trying to synth some opiate that gives you all the euphoria, motivation, and overall wellbeing, yet does not have the horrible addiction attached to it.

Lemme give you my background. I take amphetamines for ADHD. My mother thinks I get depressed sometimes, I think it's normal. My behavior is a bit unstable (ADHD hyper kid). My moodyness and unstableness is mostly due side-effects of the amps I think. Lack of sleep, bad eating habits. As well as occasional other polydrug use. My other problem is shyness. I can be social when I want to, but it's hard and often uncomfortable for me. I would like to be less shy. I also lack alot of motivation with things i'm not interested in. I don't have a strong work ethic. I hate doing alot of things like school and taking out the trash (yeh, somewhat normal, but I know alot of kids who feel rewarded for doing things like this.)

So to make me a bit more stable, happier about things, more motivated, and less shy, I have tried a few anti-depressents which really made me unhappy. Wellbutrin, Strattera, zoloft. The wonder drug for me is OPIATES!

Opiates for me do so many good things. I would def choose to be on it everyday if it was not so addictive.

-It makes me happy
-It clears any depression I have
-It motivates me better than amphetamines in most ways. Amphetamines always help me learn and study better, but opiates make work and annoying tasks way more fun, easier, enjoyable, and more rewarding than amphetamines. The combination of opiates and amphetamines are perfect for me. Happiness and the ability to focus and learn.
-It makes me social, and happy to socialize
-It stimulates my appetite and makes eating wonderful
-It makes sleep wonderful
-It makes me compassionate and caring with people I love
-It makes life better while I am high on it
-It kiss most pain


I just believe that some chemist could tweak an opiate chemical to make the perfect anti-depressent with very few side effects that would work for me. I know that some people do not gain these effects from opiates. But maybe some new opiate chemical could make most people feel the way I do.

so does anyone know if research is being done on this subject? I would dedicate my life to this, I just can't grasp chemistry.
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I dont have an answer per se but wanted to attest to opiates anti d properties. I suffer , well, lets just say severe mental problems, to the point Ive spent more time as a pre teen in mental hospitals than I did in school..Im 32 now and heroin/methadone make me goddamn near stable..Its a miracle that I discovered by accident...Now Ive been on heroin and or methadone for 15 years and they do not get me high..I simply maintain to stave WD's off..So that blows the "it just gets you high but DOESNT have anti d properties " theory out of the water. And I do literally mean I get no high from it..no nod..no rush I just dont get sick...and my mood stays balanced
 
Your mood wouldn't stay balanced if you discontinued heroin and methadone. Now, the question is whether it really helps you fight depression or just keeps you away from withdrawal (in fact you stated 'I simply maintain to stave WD's off'). I know sudden discontinuance of certain antidepressant therapy can cause some sort of adverse effects but these are two different things. It doesn't prove usefulness of opiates in depression.
 
I like to get high as much as any of us here, I'm sure. But I also have experienced anti-depressant effects from opiates, such as:

I get up and DO things, not fun, pleasurable, hedonistic things, but things that need to be done, like yard work and fixing shit around the house. I still don't WANT to do these things, they're still not any fun, I'm not blissed out, but I do them and it's no big deal.

I'll deal with problems I have in life, and plan steps to resolve them, (ie. pay bills make budgets)

I'll do things the RIGHT way, because they are the right thing to do, regardless of whether or not those steps are inconvenient/painful in the short term.

I give a shit about people, I become reasonably empathetic and interested in people. I'll talk to my neighbors instead of being holed up in a dark house.

Everything isn't golden, great, and amazing while I'm on opiates, things aren't hopeless and unmanageble, I feel able and more in control of my life.

I don't and can't do opiates all the time, but I wish I could find something to help me get to the places I described above all the time.

adder said:
. I know sudden discontinuance of certain antidepressant therapy can cause some sort of adverse effects but these are two different things. It doesn't prove usefulness of opiates in depression.
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"Some sort of adverse effects" puts it kind of lightly. Rapid discontinuation (or even a missed dose) of antidepressant therapy would likely be described by many to most as anywhere between "really really shitty" to "dangerous" depending on dose and duration of therapy, right? They may be two different things, but are both still shitty.
 
By 'some sort of adverse effects' I didn't mean 'really really shitty'. I was never put on SSRI for longer than 2 weeks though, that's it, no fun for me.

Let's leave it out, adverse effects after antidepressant discontinuation (which doesn't account for all drugs from this group but let's generalize) and, let's say, some similarity to opioid discontinuation (like 'being shitty', we're exaggerating anyway) - this doesn't prove opioid antidepressant usefulness anyway.

The beautiful aspects of opiate usage you described had been also described by Fried Man in his first post. I agree with both of you that opiates make everything easier. And so does amphetamine, benzodiazepines or marihuana for other people, unlike true antidepressant. If you want to treat your depression with opiates, that's OK. But all you do is looking for nonsensical excuses to abuse the drug. Can't you face it? Probably not if you can't see the difference between antidepressants and opiates.

I know SSRIs don't work for me or I'm not able to wait two months for them to starting working. I know an opiate does its job but it doesn't get rid of my depression. Come on, even after you forget about your problems for a few hours, it's even worse the day after if not immediately. I would have to take opiates a few times every day to maintain this feeling and I'm telling you it's not normal life. An antidepressant helps you fight depression and maintain stable mood after discontinuance.
 
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adder said:
I know SSRIs don't work for me or I'm not able to wait two months for them to starting working. I know an opiate does its job but it doesn't get rid of my depression. Come on, even after you forget about your problems for a few hours, it's even worse the day after if not immediately. I would have to take opiates a few times every day to maintain this feeling and I'm telling you it's not normal life. An antidepressant helps you fight depression and maintain stable mood after discontinuance.
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he has got a good point.
 
I'm still not convinced of the existance of an apparant difference between normally accepted anti-depressants and recreational drugs, as you claim there is adder. To me it sounds like it comes down to half-life and dosage.

SSRIs can have withdrawal symptoms too, it's just called "SSRI discontinuation syndrome".
 
The difference, as I keep trying to say, is that antidepressants should be euphoriant, i.e. even someone who suffers from severe depression isn't bummed out all the time, and when they take SSRIs, on those normal days, they don't feel great, the just feel normal.

I.e. antidepressants don't add +1 to your mood, they just stop you from being depressed.
 
adder said:
If you want to treat your depression with opiates, that's OK. But all you do is looking for nonsensical excuses to abuse the drug. Can't you face it? Probably not if you can't see the difference between antidepressants and opiates.
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speak for yourself. I don't need an excuse to abuse a drug, If I want to I want to, no self-deception required. ..and I never said I can't see the differences between antidepressants and opiates.

I think the intent of the OP was to ask about the chemistry/possibilities of developing an opioid based anti-depressant. I'd like to explore more chemistry related chat in this thread as befits ADD.
 
BilZ0r said:
The difference, as I keep trying to say, is that antidepressants should be euphoriant, i.e. even someone who suffers from severe depression isn't bummed out all the time, and when they take SSRIs, on those normal days, they don't feel great, the just feel normal.

I.e. antidepressants don't add +1 to your mood, they just stop you from being depressed.
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Wouldn't a low dose of opiates, for example, have the same effect? Ie. add 1 to your mood instead of creating euphoria.
 
^ Yeah, my mistake. But don't you think a low, non-recreational dose of an opiate would stabilize ones mood in the same manner?
 
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