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On Nature, morality, and God

According to Genesis - God didn't give a fuck about nature, every other living organism was here to be dominated by humans and used as a means for our survival,

Establishing humans, allegorically, as the species on the top of the food chain doesn't mean God "didn't give a fuck".
There are many other passages in Genesis indicating that God did "give a fuck".
And, we are literally on the top of the food chain.

I wish I could just throw the Old Testament out of the Bible.

There are many copies of the New Testament, available.
There's no need to buy them together and throw one of them out.
What about Isaiah, Ezekiel & Job? Too "dated" for your tastes?

The NT has been misinterpreted much more than the OT.
And more blood has been shed in the name of the NT.

The New Testament is extremely difficult to understand and very prone to literal interpretations.
(It's too complex and cryptic for its own good.)

As far as literature goes, the OT is superior.
We take the stories for granted now, due to oversaturation, but they're wonderful stories.

so maybe the question should not be "Why do Atheists care about nature?", but rather "Why do Christians care about nature?".

I don't really understand the question, either way.

As willow said:

every animal that exists pays complete and utter regard to nature, including ourselves

Nature sustains us, regardless of our religious orientation or lack thereof.
 
Foreeverafter said:
I'm not talking about mystical experiences. I too have had mystical experiences aplenty. I'm talking about divine experiences. It is clear, from what you're saying, that you haven't encountered God, otherwise you would believe in God.

But you are incorrect. I have experienced divinity. It just didn't happen to be the male, Christian god. Why would you assume a divine experience must be such?

You guys are avoiding what I defined as nature's law.
Does nature have clear defined laws on morality?
If not what gives you gives your laws authority?
Moreover, why should I respect them/care?

Your questioning is really unclear then. I found it very difficult to discern a point for this thread, so I went with what I understood.

No, I don't believe nature has morality. I believe that morality is 100% subjective.
The law of nature is not a law in the sense that you may be implying.
You don't need to respect or care about any of the principles that exist in nature, but you have no choice but to live under those principles. Caring/respecting is irrelevant to the impersonal, amoral natural world.
 
I have experienced divinity. It just didn't happen to be the male, Christian god. Why would you assume a divine experience must be such?

I never said anything (whatsoever) about divine experiences involving a "male Christian God".
I'm not Christian, and God - although referred to commonly as He - is genderless.
Christians don't believe that God has a penis. That's something that atheists and non-Christians assume about Christianity, based on the title.
When I'm having lengthy verbal conversations with people about religion, I often say "He" (I didn't in this thread) and then quickly clarify that God is genderless and the capitalized title "He" does not imply anything about "His" genitals.

Don't assume that I'm making assumptions. :)

me said:
people throughout history have certainly had divine experiences. I have. I take it you haven't

you said:
I'm not sure why you would assume that... you would be quite wrong. I have never emerged from these experiences with a new code of ethics, true, but I have had quite a number of experiences I would describe as mystical, with less then a quarter being from drugs. I experienced a sequence of quite odd events on Thursday night for which I have little explanation. I see no reason to involve god in this sort of thing...

It's all there in black and white. You said that there's no reason to involve God in your mystical experiences.

Here's some more quotes:

you said:
This may be mysterious or incomprehensible to you, but I feel happy without god.

you said:
I don't believe in god

Either you repeatedly misspoke, or you don't believe in God... in which case, you haven't had a divine experience.
 
^This is becoming a semantic discussion but I'll continue :)

forevaafter said:
Either you repeatedly misspoke, or you don't believe in God... in which case, you haven't had a divine experience.

I don't think a divine experience is neccesarily one in which the experiencer encounters God. Divine just means "of or like God or a god". I find it interesting that a distinction is drawn between 'God' and 'god', but I'll follow that up shortly. This definition rests at the heart of my experience/s; an experience involving something 'like a god'. So yeah, it is entirely reasonable to say I have had a divine experience that did not involve god or God, but was something like god :) And therefore, I could say that the words mystical experience and divine experience are analogous in my case, given what I believe to be 'god' (hint: its everywhere! :))

If you were asking whther I had had an experience with the Christian god; I don't think that's possible. When you refer to "God" in the context of a discussion about Christianity, you are referring to the Christian god; if it is the Hindu gods of which you speak, forgive me for not realising this ;). And, yes, the christian god does have some defining qualities

ForEverAfter said:
I never said anything (whatsoever) about divine experiences involving a "male Christian God".
I'm not Christian, and God - although referred to commonly as He - is genderless.

I'm not talking about gods dick here man, I'm talking about the same actual being as you :D. And yeah, like it not, the Christian god is thought to be male. He had a Son, he is a Father, he is HE always. For all intents and purposes, it is male. You can say that this is merely symbolic, but doesn't this god seem to have an awful lot of stereotypical male preoccupations? Its almost unfair, to make so many claims which compel the forming of a particular viewpoint and then say that this viewpoint is wrong, and yet typical of the doublethink imposed upon followers by christian religions.

Foreverafter said:
Don't assume that I'm making assumptions.

Touche :D A good point, and I apologise if I do... ;)
 
This is becoming a semantic discussion

I'll keep my response short.

When you refer to "God" in the context of a discussion about Christianity

I'm not talking about gods dick here man

This thread isn't limited to Christianity. In fact, it's mostly been about Nihilism up until this point. But, if we were talking solely about Christianity then I'd argue that "He" and "father" are actually transliteration errors. There is no mention, whatsoever, of God being male in the Torah (which, basically, is the OT). The English word "father" is used loosely, in many Christian translations of the original Hebrew text. It doesn't literally mean father. If you interpret it literally, without taking into consideration the transliteration issues, then you might incorrectly assume (as many do) that the "Christian God" is anatomically or psychologically male. But, that's not the case. Nor is it so in the Torah.

this god seem to have an awful lot of stereotypical male preoccupations

Yeah the fantasy football stuff in the OT is pretty difficult to argue against.

:p
 
First let me say I have told some privately I was done posting in this forum.
To participate in a view censoring forum where you are in fear of what you say will get censored or you banned is growth restricting and takes away from creative freedom.
However against better judgement, I believe I owe this post another reply as I started thread.
Hypocritical yes, but Im working on that so I will take it as a learning experience :)

Second, let me clarify that Im not suggesting (despite what I may personally feel)
that you have to believe in bible or Christian G (g) od to have morals.
If u derive your morals from nature fine and dandy. Just define them. If you have -subjective morals, you really dont have morals (principles) objectively I submitted.
You dont have a poured concrete foundation to stand on.
In essence, you've built a house on sand.
For example,
Let's say your neighbor grows a luscious garden
(Sorry i just love gardens and growing things)all spring and summer in spare time and you decided to just go to lake and party, you'll buy all your food from the market.
Then that winter something awful happens and no food is available at the market. You're in serious danger of starvation. Your neighbor initially shares the food he calculates he can spare. You decide that your neighbor has got more than he is sharing so you sneak on his land and take some grain.
As do the rest of your partying neighbors.
Pretty soon the neighbor is about to starve right with you. AND decides enough is enough and takes what he has left and splits somewhere no one can easily get his food.
Facing sure death, you and a couple other neighbors decide to go to the hideout of the man that has some food left and kill him and take his food.( even if you dont kill him you have gave him death sentence by taking food)
Hey, gotta keep the species going.
So not having enough food for you and all co conspirators to survive, you kill execute the man that worked his ass off to harvest the food in the first place.
Who had the better morals in the story?
Is it even a relevant question?
Would it be ok to go head and kill your co conspirators as food gets even lower?
What does the story say about the nature of human beings/animals?
Ideally, what morals would you like to subscribe to?
What makes them superior to someone else's morals?
Do your ideal morals run across the board for everyone, or is it ok to break them in respect to self.
I could ask questions for days .....
Basically where does your authority for setting objective/subjective morals come from?
Do they apply across the board to everyone as well as self.

All views welcome.
Christian G (g)od belief/ lack of belief is irrelevant to questions I presented.
That argument objection has been sustained.
 
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My view? Lay off the meth.

Also, your story is a horrible example..
Someone shares their own limited resource and then the people he was sharing with decide to rob/kill him when he stops sharing? Gee I can't figure out which party was acting with morality and which party was being immoral.
 
^^
Wowzers ,
If ever I have seen an example of someone proving my point this would be one.

Lay off,
you suggesting I stop posting?
is that not what you meant or does my example just make you a little queasy?
Have you suggested others with similar opinions of u to stop posting?

You failed to answer simple questions by attacking the person asking questions--fallacy for answer
Answer the questions what are you afraid of?
Who had best morals?
What gives you authority to have subjective/ objective morals?
Are they immutable?
why should I subscribe to them?


And to point of competing resources,
I submit all living life competes for resources so that it is a very valid example.
Who gets to be right.....the strong, the smart, the cunning.
Questions to ask yourself
 
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I'm guessing a lot of people in this thread have a coffee table in their lounge covered in empty pizza boxes and overflowing ash trays.

You don't need a purpose to life to realise that you shouldn't shit where you eat
 
^^^
At least you kinda answered.

Answer, irrelevant questions

I can at least respect that

Ps
I dont smoke but who dont love pizza?:)

I apologize for being aggressive,
It just gets to core of questions quicker
 
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I believe that we are born with these morals. I think the laws of nature are given too us but it is up to us to figure then out. After all we are animals in nature. As with all animals we all act differently. Within all species each individual animal may act different just as humans.
So I guess what I am saying in my opinion we are born with the morals but it is what we choose to do with them is up too us.
For most of us, stealing or murder.is wrong. But for some of us it is not.
 
^^^
(one thousand words)
He he he ( funny line)

But seriously,
All someone has to do is argue/ state a type of humanism philosophy or something like that to lay foundation for morals.
Its ok to believe that if thats what you want to just be honest.
If you subscribe to panthiesm ( like previous poster did) ---fine, just have ballz/va jay jay to admitt it and dont go all wishy washy

just my two cents free to toss a penny back

An honest answer is never guilty of being dishonest even if the answer is what we call wrong
Doesnt make you neccessarly right-----
Just an honest person;)
 
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^^^
(one thousand words)
He he he ( funny line)

But seriously,
All someone has to do is argue/ state a type of humanism philosophy or something like that to lay foundation for morals.
Its ok to believe that if thats what you want to just be honest.
If you subscribe to panthiesm ( like previous poster did) ---fine, just have ballz/va jay jay to admitt it and dont go all wishy washy

just my two cents free to toss a penny back

An honest answer is never guilty of being dishonest even if the answer is what we call wrong
Doesnt make you neccessarly right-----
Just an honest person;)
I gave my response. I don't know if you saw it.
 
Dystopia35,
I was referring to a previous poster and making a blanket statement as well.

But srry, I did miss your post.

My reply to your post is you are saying nature has clear objective rules but we have to use trial and error involving/ invoking self to decide if we subscribe to those or reject them.

Then did nature really have clear rules?
Or is it just suggesting/cautioning you?
Does nature have a mind?

Wouldnt laws be set like mathematics and physics, same everywhere you go and for everybody

Seems like you would have to eliminate right and wrong from your vocabulary
 
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I live my life by two moral codes,

Do no one harm and leave no footprint. I don't need god, high priests, judges or politicians to create further laws for myself, but I'm happy for them to use them to control other wankers I have to deal with on a some what daily basis.
 
These are all good questions. I have thought about this myself. I think we are given a conscience. It is up to the individual within the species to figure out the proper way to go about things. Then when there are majority that believe or have the similar morals you will then get community. Like with any herding animals or especially more intelligent animals that have their own communities. Dolphi s for example they have found that while the species may be similat, each individual acts differently. Some of the dolphins even commit acts that human would consider rape.
 
I live my life by two moral codes,

Do no one harm and leave no footprint. I don't need god, high priests, judges or politicians to create further laws for myself, but I'm happy for them to use them to control other wankers I have to deal with on a some what daily basis.
Basically exact same with me.
 
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