NSA surveillance thread

[23536]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/us/nsa-verizon-calls.html?hp&_r=0

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is secretly carrying out a domestic surveillance program under which it is collecting business communications records involving Americans under a hotly debated section of the Patriot Act, according to a highly classified court order disclosed on Wednesday night.

A senior Obama administration official said on Thursday morning that a court order seeking the business records of Verizon customers, disclosed by the newspaper The Guardian, “does not allow the government to listen in on anyone’s telephone calls” and “does not include the content of any communications or the name of any subscriber,” but rather “relates exclusively to metadata, such as a telephone number or the length of the call.”

The official emphasized that “all three branches of government are involved in reviewing and authorizing” any domestic intelligence collection under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and that any surveillance activities under it are overseen by the Justice Department, the office of the Director of National Intelligence, and the FISA Court “to ensure that they comply with the Constitution and laws of the United States and appropriately protect privacy and civil liberties.”

“Information of the sort described in the Guardian article has been a critical tool in protecting the nation from terrorist threats to the United States,” the official said, “as it allows counterterrorism personnel to discover whether known or suspected terrorists have been in contact with other persons who may be engaged in terrorist activities, particularly people located inside the United States.”

The order, signed in April by Judge Roger Vinson of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, directs a Verizon Communications subsidiary, Verizon Business Network Services, to turn over “on an ongoing daily basis” to the National Security Agency all call logs “between the United States and abroad” or “wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls.”

The order does not apply to the content of the communications.

Senator Mark Udall, a Colorado Democrat who has raised warnings about sweeping federal surveillance, suggested on Thursday that the program represented excessive action by the government.

“While I cannot corroborate the details of this particular report, this sort of widescale surveillance should concern all of us and is the kind of government overreach I’ve said Americans would find shocking,” Mr. Udall said. “As a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, it’s why I will keep fighting for transparency and appropriate checks on the surveillance of Americans.”

Verizon Business Network Services is one of the nation’s largest telecommunications and Internet providers for corporations. It is not clear whether similar orders have gone to other parts of Verizon, like its residential or cellphone services, or to other telecommunications carriers. The order prohibits its recipient from discussing its existence, and representatives of both Verizon and AT&T declined to comment Wednesday evening.

cont. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/us/nsa-verizon-calls.html?hp&_r=0

 

[23536]

One of the reasons I think The Wire is flawed as a series is that it uncritically perpetuates the myth that cops are doing God's work by snooping on Americans. I think this is especially prominent in season 3, when Avon's gang is using disposable phones and the Baltimore PD strong-arms the phone company into expeditiously cloning the gang's phones. The phone company people are portrayed as weaselly capitalists, and the cops/prosecutors as saintly knights who hold the moral high ground. This police-centric worldview is foisted on us by popular culture at all levels, and it is one of the reasons the US government can do something like what's portrayed in the OP without inciting a revolution.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

It's not just Verizon.

The NSA maintains a record of every single phone call ever made (just call information - not recordings of the actual calls). I was under the impression that this was common knowledge.

 

[-=SS=-]

It's not just Verizon.

The NSA maintains a record of every single phone call ever made (just call information - not recordings of the actual calls). I was under the impression that this was common knowledge.

They also "intercept" all web traffic coming in or out of the USA, and are able to analyze the streams of data, in realtime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

You have to wonder what the point of such a massive network of interception is though. The terrorists and enemies know it exists, so basically they'll find another way to do business or communicate. Is it for our protection? Yeh possibly. But I think it's far more likely the system is just there for abuse by the political and ruling classes, and for data-mining on the population for the benefit of corporations and anyone else with a big enough wallet.

 

[Corazon]

It's not just Verizon.

The NSA maintains a record of every single phone call ever made (just call information - not recordings of the actual calls). I was under the impression that this was common knowledge.

I guess it's not common knowledge.

It should be.

If they can do it, they are doing it.
That's reality. The gov't is fully utilizing administration over things like telecommunications or the internet. Without limits. There's no "they do this..., but not this...". The only limits are feasibility related. Not legal, not moral. Only feasibility.

 

[23536]

It's not just Verizon.

The NSA maintains a record of every single phone call ever made (just call information - not recordings of the actual calls). I was under the impression that this was common knowledge.

This can't be done.

(throws cell phone off Miami's tallest mountain)

 

[psood0nym]

You have to wonder what the point of such a massive network of interception is though. The terrorists and enemies know it exists, so basically they'll find another way to do business or communicate. Is it for our protection? Yeh possibly. But I think it's far more likely the system is just there for abuse by the political and ruling classes, and for data-mining on the population for the benefit of corporations and anyone else with a big enough wallet.

I'm sure there's many reasons the government is doing this, including reasons that are only discovered after the data reveals it. However, the big idea of the moment that I imagine the government is especially interested in is "Big Data," which, among other things, involves mining massive amounts of various digital records for ways in which it might inform social theories.

The following quote is from an article written by Alex Pentland, who is described as " one of the most-cited computer scientists in the world and was named by Forbes as one of the world's seven most powerful data scientists:"

As you move into a society driven by Big Data most of the ways we think about the world change in a rather dramatic way. For instance, Adam Smith and Karl Marx were wrong, or at least had only half the answers. Why? Because they talked about markets and classes, but those are aggregates. They're averages.

While it may be useful to reason about the averages, social phenomena are really made up of millions of small transactions between individuals. There are patterns in those individual transactions that are not just averages, they're the things that are responsible for the flash crash and the Arab spring. You need to get down into these new patterns, these micro-patterns, because they don't just average out to the classical way of understanding society. We're entering a new era of social physics, where it's the details of all the particles—the you and me—that actually determine the outcome.

Reasoning about markets and classes may get you half of the way there, but it's this new capability of looking at the details, which is only possible through Big Data, that will give us the other 50 percent of the story. We can potentially design companies, organizations, and societies that are more fair, stable and efficient as we get to really understand human physics at this fine-grain scale. This new computational social science offers incredible possibilities.

[elsewhere in the article]: With Big Data we can now begin to actually look at the details of social interaction and how those play out, and are no longer limited to averages like market indices or election results. This is an astounding change. The ability to see the details of the market, of political revolutions, and to be able to predict and control them is definitely a case of Promethean fire—it could be used for good or for ill, and so Big data brings us to interesting times.

He also mentions this:

Another important issue with Big Data is that since this data is mostly about people, there are enormous issues about privacy, data ownership, and data control. You can imagine using Big Data to make a world that is incredibly invasive, incredibly 'Big Brother'… George Orwell was not nearly creative enough when he wrote 1984.

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

US intelligence agencies tap servers of top Internet companies

The highly classified program, designed to look at international communications and run by the National Security Agency and the FBI, can peek at video, audio, photos, emails and other documents, including connection logs that let the government track people, according to the sources, who spoke with NBC News on condition of anonymity.

http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/06/18809021-sources-us-intelligence-agencies-tap-servers-of-top-internet-companies?lite

Pretty sure people who care about this sort of thing knew something along these lines was going on. Let's see how the general public reacts to confirmation of the non-existence of privacy. My bet is that they will be so divided that they will squabble about it for a few weeks, and then forget about it without anything being done.

 

[-=SS=-]

I'm sure there's many reasons the government is doing this, including reasons that are only discovered after the data reveals it. However, the big idea of the moment that I imagine the government is especially interested in is "Big Data," which, among other things, involves mining massive amounts of various digital records for ways in which it might inform social theories.

But what do we need better "social theories" for? We don't. They do (ruling class). They're spending billions, if not trillions, on this global information grid system that mines literally everything electronically, pushing everyone to get smartphones, facebook, and any piece of tech that allows them to connect you to this information collection program. It is quite possibly the greatest threat to freedom, to humanity, we have ever faced. People laughed about this 10-20 years ago.. "bah, that's all just conspiracy theory". And look where we are now.. the fucking grid is built and we're just one step away from having ourselves literally plugged into this thing.

The idea that this thing will be used to benefit humanity is just fucking retarded. Underscore retarded. The same thing was said about computers and high-tech 50 years ago.. "don't worry, it will make life easier for everyone".. and instead loads of people lost their jobs, corporations became obscenely wealthy and powerful, and we now have even less freedom and free-time than we used to!

People should be really nervous about this. This is a really old video, a bit conspiracy theory over-drive, but it's funny just how much of this shit is true: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACTOObENSfE

 

[jpgrdnr]

What the government really doesn't want you to know is that their so called information gathering is useless. So the NSA is spending 20 million dollars (or more) annually on something that might only give 50% certainty on terrorist targets. Worse the NSA is pawning it off in the president's daily brief as actual intelligence.

Geez, legend has it the State department has a datastore big enough to capture the online data of every man, woman, and child on the earth. And obviously not everyone has the Internet!

The crime here isn`t that their recording the call you made to your dealer 30 minutes ago, `do you have any?``nah, man I just have enough for myself....`in some strange Shaun of the Dead irony...or the fact that you cheat on your spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend, slave...its that the taxpayers dollar is being farted away at the leisure of some dudes in some office building somewhere and the good people of the USA don`t do dick about it.

The technology isn`t new. The government has been recording data on its citizens and neighbouring countries prior to 9/11 and 9/11 stll happened! The drug cartels in Mexico haven`t disappeared! People can still get their heroin in Baltimore! Shit, lest we forget the USA just decided to bomb the shit out of Iraq, over a few pipes and breadcrumbs. Iraq was and still is one of the most poorest countries in the middle east! 80% of the people in baghdad probably crap in a bucket. Let alone have WMDs!!

as of 2012 Baghdad continues to be listed as one of the least hospitable places in the world to live[5] and was ranked by Mercer as the worst of 221 major cities as measured by quality-of-life.[

The place is a shithole! Literally!! hahahhahaha

Bill Hicks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfd0_7BcU-0

 

[thujone]

But what do we need better "social theories" for?

It's in the linked article;

We are beginning to see is services that leverage personal data in this sort of respectful manner. Services such as really personal recommendations, identity certification without passwords, and personal public services for transportation, health, and so forth. All these areas are undergoing tectonic changes, and the more that we can use specific data about specific people, the better we can make the system work.

They're spending billions, if not trillions, on this global information grid system that mines literally everything electronically, pushing everyone to get smartphones, facebook, and any piece of tech that allows them to connect you to this information collection program. It is quite possibly the greatest threat to freedom, to humanity, we have ever faced. People laughed about this 10-20 years ago.. "bah, that's all just conspiracy theory". And look where we are now.. the fucking grid is built and we're just one step away from having ourselves literally plugged into this thing.

What exactly do you mean by "global" information grid? Even ECHELON (I'm sure you've heard of it) is compartmentalized and requires the cooperation of the signatory states. Even within the U.S. intelligence community, cooperation is required between the various departments. The "system" has existed your whole life, the only reason you're even aware of it is because now it's so relevant that this sort of thing makes headlines.

The idea that this thing will be used to benefit humanity is just fucking retarded. Underscore retarded. The same thing was said about computers and high-tech 50 years ago.. "don't worry, it will make life easier for everyone"..

So you're suggesting we make no further technological progress because there are inventions that can be misused? Nobody is forcing me to use my VISA card instead of untraceable cash, but I do precisely because it does make my life easier. I'm one of the few who still doesn't own a smartphone, but I can definitely see how having access to Google maps would be handy if you're lost or looking for a new place to have lunch at.

We have more people in the world now than ever before, but also less death and destruction from death/disease/famine compared to what historical records indicate. Life has gotten better in general, and folk who experienced first-hand how bad it was in the past actually appreciate it.

 

[Droppersneck]

Obamas authoritarian reign is putting Bush to shame! We need this socialist puppet out of the whitehouse ASAP

 

[-=SS=-]

Not saying we shouldn't progress with technology. But building massive spy infrastructure that does absolutely shit all to stop terrorism and is only there to data-mine for corporations, politicians etc.. that needs to stop. And trying to justify it by saying it will advance social theories is just really stupid. Like these people give a fuck about me or you, get real. This is about controlling populations and managing them in the most effective way. That's what it has always been about. The ruling class are paranoid people and they have a need to ensure control and domination over their populations.

I'd debate whether life has gotten better. Post-WW2 boom is coming to an end now, and we're going to reap what we've sown.. which isn't a lot really. Corporations and certain individuals have gotten insanely rich, the public has enjoyed a temporary blip in living standards as a result.. and now it's about to come back down. The wealth gap is getting worse, and our financial system is on the verge of collapse anyway..

We don't need better social theories. We need a system that isn't built on the false assumption of ever-lasting growth, better drug laws, and about 101 other things! Fuck theories.

 

[my3rdeye]

The idea the powers that be gave us Facebook so we could could organise protests and unite and fight the power in exchange for "them" knowing our buying habits and friends lists? Sure Facebook is great tool for law enforcement in many situations. It doesnt exist just to spy on you though. I am not convinced people's personal info has any real value. And if you don't like it, don't sign on. I don't have a smart phone either, i might get one just for the GPS. Finding addresses is worth having my every move recorded by the NSA.

 

[23536]

Never use Facebook. In fact, never use your real name online for anything.

Also, addresses are exceedingly easy to find without electronic devices. Why all of a sudden has everyone lost their navigational skills?

 

[thujone]

Not saying we shouldn't progress with technology. But building massive spy infrastructure that does absolutely shit all to stop terrorism and is only there to data-mine for corporations, politicians etc.. that needs to stop. And trying to justify it by saying it will advance social theories is just really stupid. Like these people give a fuck about me or you, get real. This is about controlling populations and managing them in the most effective way. That's what it has always been about. The ruling class are paranoid people and they have a need to ensure control and domination over their populations.

You make it sounds like the NSA employees are some mindless slave army bent to the will of some shadowy dictatorial entity. In reality, they're just normal people who got pulled in by the great pay. And let me explain briefly to you how digital communications work since you have no idea: metadata (routing information) is a fundamental component of every packet sent to or from any device you own that uses a digital network, because network communications are pretty shifty and unreliable and the protocols need a crapload of redundancy and direction built in to make sure that the internet actually responds to your requests.

The networks you use are public domain that happen to be administered by ISPs, and the NSA is merely requesting from them all the ancillary trash spewed out by your device that the ISPs retain for a period of time in order to have a record they can use to look at and diagnose problems when they arise. This has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of "ruling class" or evil dynasty and is simply how the internet has always worked. What is surprising is that a) people are actually getting upset because they imagine they should have some sort of expectation of privacy despite that notion being contrary to how the internet works, and b) that the NSA hasn't been doing this all along.

I'd debate whether life has gotten better. Post-WW2 boom is coming to an end now, and we're going to reap what we've sown.. which isn't a lot really. Corporations and certain individuals have gotten insanely rich, the public has enjoyed a temporary blip in living standards as a result.. and now it's about to come back down. The wealth gap is getting worse, and our financial system is on the verge of collapse anyway..

Welcome to globalization. The standard of living is growing in India and China, and the two countries make up half the world's population. Tell me what you think will happen to the cost of a T-shirt at Walmart when they're all made in Bangladesh where there is a growing demand for factory worker rights. As for the wealth gap, of course it's getting bigger, there are more people alive to sell shit to. What sense does it make to villify a CEO when his/her company creates a product that the public wants badly enough to pay for it?

We don't need better social theories. We need a system that isn't built on the false assumption of ever-lasting growth, better drug laws, and about 101 other things! Fuck theories.

Where do you think such a system would come from? Without a theory, how can we evaluate whether or not a new system would work better than the one we've got? To be clear: none of us appreciate being spied on. However, we also weren't all up-in-arms knowing that for decades we've been identifiable by our home address and a landline phone number that you could just look up in any old phone book. The technology has changed and so have the methods to use that technology. It's as simple as that.

 

[Care]

I find it funny that people are all up in arms over this now.

Ever since the patriot act, the government has been becoming more and more intrusive into our lives. Obviously people didnt know the specifics about how the government was tracking its citizens until this report, but common sense would tell anyone that is paying attention that it is happening since it has basically been legal for over a decade.

Yet, only now when the story is in the headlines and the specifics of how the government is monitoring us are revealed are people up in arms about it. It really is crazy how much the media controls the public discourse in this country. Now, im not saying that there arent valid concerns over this type of right-to-privacy-trampling stuff the government is doing, its just interesting to see how this whole thing is unfolding in the media.

 

[Mandark]

Some more info on NSA data collection around the world (and in the USA):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-informant-global-datamining

 

[socko]

So, what's the consensus opinion on this? How many buy the government line that "It's OK because it's for your safety..... you can't have 100% safety without sacrificing a 'minimal' amount of privacy... you can trust us..." [to summarize Obama as paraphrased in a wall street journal article today.]

When does one get to the point that they would rather live with a little danger and keep their privacy than put up with these intrusions (which arguably haven't made us any safer) any longer?

Also, I've read that this has been going on to some extent at least since the Reagan era in the form of ECHELON.

 

[23536]

So, what's the consensus opinion on this? How many buy the government line that "It's OK because it's for your safety..... you can't have 100% safety without sacrificing a 'minimal' amount of privacy... you can trust us..." [to summarize Obama as paraphrased in a wall street journal article today.]

When does one get to the point that they would rather live with a little danger and keep their privacy than put up with these intrusions (which arguably haven't made us any safer) any longer?

You should add a poll to this thread.