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NPS Act V1. Blankets? Just Say No!

Just an update... it seems the Novel Psychoactive Substance Bill is being rushed through Parliament & not everyone is happy with that:

Legal highs: Psychoactive drugs policy 'rushed', say MPs (You can see the current progress of the bill here)

Legislation to ban new psychoactive substances in the UK is being rushed, MPs have warned.

The Home Affairs Committee said ministers were not working properly with their own expert drug advisers.

The MPs also said past governments' spending on education about the dangers of so-called legal highs had been "shockingly inadequate to date".

Policing minister Mike Penning said the government would consider the committee's criticism.
Keith Vaz, the committee's chairman, said: "Britain uses more psychoactive substances than any other country in Europe and is at risk of being overwhelmed by the sheer scale of this problem.

"Legislating on this issue is the right thing to do, however doing so at speed without any consultation may be counter-productive.

"The concerns expressed have been dealt with in a piecemeal manner and there has been unsatisfactory communication with the Advisory Council [on the Misuse of Drugs], the very body that the ministers should rely on for advice."

The MPs said there had been no clarity on the relative harm of different types of NPS - and therefore what kind of sentences courts should impose on future offenders.

And they also attacked ministers for failing to do enough to warn young people of the dangers of the substances.

It's certainly wouldn't be the first time that the government have largely ignored the advice on the ACMD. We all remember what happened to David Nutt when he chose to speak the truth...

It seems to me that the government are running blindly into this one. In their efforts to curb the growing problems with legal highs they are just fearmongering & trying to get this legislation through as quickly as possible with little regard to the problems that may arise.

I'd certainly agree that education on the risks of legal highs would be a much more productive way of dealing with things. Drug education in this country is largely a farce, I'm sure the addition of legal highs into this system would be equally lacking in constructive advice but still, it's somewhere to start.
 
agree with this 100% . It is stupidly dangerous what they are doing, who the hell do they think they are to ignore the evidence produced by ACMD and david nutts ISCD?

its reactionary policy to look good int he papers, in reality they will be turning huge numebrs of people into the black market, crime and ruin peoples lives if not cause them deaths.

Absolutely dispicable the way this government is operating, like a dictatorship.
 
Not to mention they are contributing to the prevalence of untested, alphabet soup type of drugs. Labs will just keep churning out ever more unknown and untested compounds as the established ones are banned.
 
The minister in charge of the legal highs bill doesn’t understand his own legislation
Ian Dunt
Politics.co.uk
October 20th, 2015

Even by the Mickey Mouse standards of the psychoactive substances bill, yesterday’s Commons debate was remarkable. It is a sign of how meaningless and irrational this legislation is that the minister in charge of it seems to have no idea what he is making illegal or who would be vulnerable to prosecution.

Mike Penning’s performance was the most incompetent in recent Commons memory, perhaps even trumping the moment last year when Chris Grayling seemed to misunderstand the function of his own judicial review reforms and talked himself into watering it down in front of the entire chamber. Last night, the policing minister seemed to contradict a fundamental promise of the bill: that it would only criminalise the import, production and sale of legal highs, but not the possession of them.

“My understanding was that those who would be criminalised by the bill were those who were supplying, marketing, producing and selling,” SNP MP Anne McLaughlin observed, “but twice now the minister has made a comment that suggests that those who purchase these products might also be criminalised.”

Penning’s reply to the Scottish MP was astonishing, because it contradicted everything which had been said about the bill up until yesterday’s debate.

“We do not want to criminalise individuals for possession, but we are going to criminalise the sale and purchase of these substances. That is in the bill and in the spirit of the bill, and is in line with the work that we have done.”

Penning’s comment wasn’t just remarkable for how radically it went against Home Office promises not to criminalise users, but also because it flew against decades of drug laws.

Labour’s Lyn Brown tried to help him out. One of Penning’s major problems, aside from having invented a new criminal offence on the floor of the House and overturning decades of narcotic offence consensus, was that he still had no working definition of a psychoactive substance which did not require extensive expert analysis. Given that the average member of the public would not have a pharmacological expert on hand when buying glue or nutmeg or whatever, he was effectively proposing criminalising everyone. No-one would ever be able to tell when they were breaking the law. This is one definition of a totalitarian state.

“I am a little confused by the diversion from where I thought we were going,” Brown said. “Would not a purchaser need to know that the substance was illegal when purchasing it? If so, we will need a definition of what psychoactive means. Is that not right?”

Penning replied: “That is exactly the situation, and that is exactly what the bill says. I do not understand the diversion either.”

Fellow Conservative MP Stephen Phillips tried to save him by explaining his own bill to him. “I confess to the minister—I am trying to help—that I am a little confused as well. I do not think that the bill creates an offence of purchasing so-called legal highs. Importing is a different matter, and is dealt with in clause eight, which he will no doubt confirm. If he can do so the debate about people buying so-called legal highs and being criminalised will go away.”

At that point Penning suddenly appeared to understand how badly he was misrepresenting the legislation.

THIS NEXT BIT IS IMPORTANT AND HILARIOUS.

“I apologise: I kind of misled the House unintentionally on individual possession. I was talking about intent to supply, not intent to use. Making a purchase from a foreign website would be caught, but the purchase on its own from a website or foreign website would not, and I apologise if I misled the House on that point.”

Even here he doesn't seem to understand what he is talking about, but it is likely that he means that a purchase for use from a foreign website would in fact be criminalised under the rules against imports. As Lib Dem Norman Lamb pointed out, this is morally absurd.

“The bill manages to criminalise the purchase of a substance imported from overseas, but does not criminalise the purchase of exactly the same product domestically. Is not that just ridiculous? Can anyone in the Chamber possibly justify that distinction?”

The irrationality, lack of interest in evidence, muddled thinking and sheer irresponsibility of the Penning slip-up was typical of the debate. Could there be any area of legislation, outside of drugs, where MPs would sit for hours debating a ban on something they cannot define? The Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD), which was frozen out the process because it kept raising logical objections, warned that the government’s wording is effectively meaningless and that proxy measures of psychoactivity, such as in-vitro neurochemical tests, may not stand up in court. This is why Ireland has found it almost impossible to prosecute people after it passed a similar law.

Brown observed, rather understatedly:

“The definition of psychoactivity should be at the core of the bill, so I am rather surprised that the government felt able to move the bill’s second reading without that point being resolved.”

Lamb made the same point, somewhat less understatedly:

“Is it not extraordinary that at this point of our consideration of a bill there is such concern about the possible implications of a definition? The view of many is that it is impossible to provide a scientifically or legally meaningful definition of a psychoactive substance. At least in principle, it could cover thousands of plants, spices, herbal remedies and over-the-counter medicines. The degree of psychoactivity necessary to establish a criminal offence is also completely unclear, as it is unspoken in the bill.”

The weakness of the definition means the government is unable to differentiate legal highs from items like nutmeg, incense or flowers, all of which are substances with a psychoactive effect. Ministers wrote back to church leaders to alleviate their concern about incense recently, but their statement had nothing to do with the law. They said incense did not involve the “direct inhalation of fumes”, which is not a distinction which features in the bill, and that it was not “consumed for its psychoactive effect”, which is not strictly true, given the religious context in which it takes place. Although if there is a single good argument for the psychoactive substances bill it is that we could see a court case where it was decided whether incense was being used for its psychoactive effects in church.

“By having a blanket ban, there are real concerns that we will be banning things that we all enjoy,” Penning admitted. “I am talking about caffeine…” Then his Tory colleague Stephen Phillips usefully shouted: “Nutmeg!”

Penning pressed on. “Yes, nutmeg and the scent of a flower. That would be complete and utter tosh. We will ensure that we insert what we want to insert, just as the government did in the Republic of Ireland, while at the same time having a blanket ban.”

Putting aside for a moment the fact that Penning describes as “tosh” that which he seconds earlier accepts is true, his list of exemptions will be as long as War and Peace. It will be longer even than the endless list of additions pegged on to the Misuse of Drugs Act.

Penning spent much of the debate saying what a success the legal highs bill had been in Ireland, but the few MPs who had bothered to research what had happened in Ireland did their best to correct him.

Within minutes of the debate starting Green MP Caroline Lucas pointed out:

“Similar bans in Ireland led to an increase in the use of these kinds of drugs. Given that that is the case, will he be properly reviewing the implementation of this bill?”

Penning’s answer includes a very revealing logical twist. He disagrees with Lucas not by citing contrary evidence, but insisting that he has not seen it with his own eyes.

“I did not expect to be in confrontation with the hon. lady so early on, but I think, yet again, that she is wrong. I have been to the Republic of Ireland, as well as to Northern Ireland, and not only seen the damage that these psychoactive substances have done, but met ministers and their chemists.”

This is an increasingly common refrain from politicians. They do not pretend to have evidence to the contrary, they simply ignore it because it does not correspond to their personal experience. In truth, the evidence from Ireland is damning. Yes, it shut down the head shops, which is what MPs really want, but the trade instantly spread onto the black market – both the street corners and the dark web.

Tldr? The people sponsoring this bill don't have a fucking clue what they are on about and neither do they care.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...-charge-of-the-legal-highs-bill-doesn-t-under
 
The Global Commission on Drug Policy, of which Richard Branson is perhaps the most well known member and spokesperson, at least in the UK, was interviewed a couple of days ago, stating that the Commission has recently produced a comprehensive report based on the consensus of all the hard evidence obtained in the latest scientific research, and in the current conservative climate is seen as highly 'progressive' or 'way too radical and extreme' in its' conclusions and recommendations. Unsurprisingly the UK government has decided to completely ignore, or not even bother to read any single section of the report, if their policy making is anything to go by, if the report could be summarised in one sentence the general gist is that criminalising and locking up drug users is the worst possible outcome both for the drug users and wider society. A criminal record usually makes it extremely difficult to gain paid employment, so that even very talented people with a lot to contribute would become a 'burden on the state' for the rest of their lives. Such a shocking and willful waste of skills and talent, it's tragic for the individuals concerned and for the workplaces where those affected could be putting their skills and talents to productive use.

http://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/finally-a-change-in-course-on-drug-policy

"drugs should be treated as a health issue. My great hope is that today’s actions bring that day a little bit closer to reality, so that the millions who continue to be harmed by current policies can be helped instead."

There are 1.5 million people in prison in the USA on possession related drug charges. Despite a handful of USA states and other countries like Canada and Holland being far more enlightened and progressive it seems that the UK is not alone in being completely at odds with all common sense and scientific research in in policy making. Is there any other arena where governments willfully ignore all evidence, rationality, and basic common sense to the extent that they do with 'psycho-active substances.' :? It's comparable to maintaining that the world is flat despite hundreds of years of incontestable scientific hard evidence to the contrary, or decades worth in the case of drugs. We might as well still be living in the dark ages as far as drugs policy goes.

Even the top brass of the police force like Peter Fahey, Manchester's now retired Chief Constable of GMP has stated that government policy on drugs has failed and continues failing, unenforcable in many cases, counter-productive and futile in others. When even a huge number of household names / respected public figures, role models to some people, are known to have a history of drug use and openly speak out against current policies, or even just by going 'on record' stating they have used illegal frugs, further undermining the credibility and legitimacy of the Law itself, I cannot imagine what it will take for the government to take any notice. It's a bit like the climate change caused by human activity issue no one listened to all the growing and increasingly compelling evidence for year after year until it was too late, and irreversible damage has already been done. Regarding drugs policy it's too late already for those whose lives have been ruined by being criminalised for actions that in the vast majority of cases are crimes without any victim. In that case how can drug use even be called a crime, when there is no victim, except for certain cases where it could be argues that the drug user themselves is the only victim. Putting drug distribution in the hand of organised crime syndicates rather than being state controlled does in some cases directly lead to acquisitive crime, where an addict needs to steal to fund his or her addiction.

I wonder at what point in the future things will change, and what it will take to cause that change; 10 years, 50 years, 100 years? Maybe it will be when the wealth and power of organised crime has become so pernicious, pervasive and obvious that no government anywhere in the world could be free of some level of corruption (if that isn't already the case in many a case of 'bent politicians' from local councilors right up to the highest levels of government and power - a donation here, a donation there, in return for a blind eye) that even the likes of people who are so gullible and poorly informed about everything that they believe every word of what they read in the likes of the Daily Mail will have to sit up and take notice, and actually engage their brains for one minute and wonder if there isn't a better, more sane way, of dealing with the issue after all.
 
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Anyone expecting common sense and harm reduction from the Tory government is sadly mistaken. Many experts in the field of drug research and addictions have lambasted the MOD Act 1971 as causing more harm than the drugs themselves and as has been mentioned the ACMD has been sidelined. In alcohol legislation Cameron said people need to be able to use their own judgement/responsibility yet in drug legislation he claims people need to be sheltered, (despite the fact that alcohol is one of the most harmful drugs used - Proff. Nutt et al 2010)

This legislation, I believe, is to have a two fold effect - 1 it allows for arbitrary criminalisation of the ordinary people, cops will be able to use it to remove civil liberties allowing them unfettered access to people, (just like the US has done with its Patriot Act and the UK has already done with various 'anti-terror' legislation) and 2 it also props up the governments buddies in the pharmaceutical industry/drinks industry.

If we look at Kava Kava you can buy it legally from the EU but not the US - this sort of nonsense is already in play!

Drug legislation acts in the interests of politicians - big bad drug bogeyman vote for us and we will protect you, LEA - they get more money, legal services more money for barristers and judges as they criminalise the people using, alcohol and tobacco industry as it minimises peoples access to mind altering substances, (Cameron has allowed the drinks industry to regulate itself under the guise of the Portman group). IF this legislation were to go through it would mean having to have built in exemptions for some of the most harmful substances - alcohol and tobacco. It would if implemented as they propose it would end tea/coffee drinking, (having a coffee morning would mean going to remote farms like the ravers did!!).

The explosion in RC use is down to the MOD act and attempts to wipe out MDMA production and as each chemical is banned others are taking their place. People, generally speaking will use substances regardless of their legal status, how many here have stopped and said "Well I would love a joint/pill/etc but its illegal so I wont touch it"?

The government must know this and know that they'll cause untold harm as they allow criminals to keep this market to themselves.

Fucking assholes!
 
I'm not expecting common sense and harm reduction from the Tory government or any other maintsream party, i'm just banging on about the lack of it.

I've yet to hear Corbyn's views on the subject, I imagine they would be anti-the current status, but due to the nature of the "commentariat" he's probably going to be extremely wary about voicing his opinions due to the all too predictable and highly damaging lampooning he would get from the conservative press. He probably doesnt want to commit political suicide just yet. That leaves just the Green party, with their one MP, the only party to adopt a common sense approach to the issue, but there's more chance of Elvis Presley winning the lottery than the UK Green Party ever being in a position to implement their policies.
 
Oh yeah, all this new legislation is so fucking sad and ridiculously stupid also in regards to general neuroscience research.

Of course I do not support the RC business and handing out untested chemicals to anyone paying for. But I think the benefits of being able to legally obtain psychoactives as well as the uncounted worthy anecdotal reports about the activity of novel compounds from fellow psychonauts, as well as the purely amazing benefits some certain compounds - mostly pronounced with methoxetamine - are for some seriously suffering but yet therapy-resistant individuals.

There is a general lack of common sense in the society & politicians particularly these days. That makes me so fucking angry and sad. There are so amazing endless possibilities in out 21st century from new technologies and all that & mankind are just about hindering others in personal freedom, destroying lives and all that. I don't understand these people.
 
dopamimetic are you aware of http://www.drugscience.org.uk/ (ISCD) chaired by david nutt and a great team of toxicologists, pharmacologists, neurobiology experts and legal experts. Their primary concern is the way the law is hampering researching and they are fully aware of the therapeutic potential of compounds they simply cannot research because of the pointless law.
 
I would almost say with the clinical research that's been done on ketamine to treat depression is sure to be tried with MXE in the future. There's so much potential there, but the governments do not want to acknowledge it as big pharma would loose so much money on things like SSRI's.
 
big pharma is already doing human trials with a number of lead compounds based on NMDA antagonists, obviously they are trying to find chemnicals that don't have the 'recreational' effect of ketamine. Expect to see some of these on the market in the coming years.

Wether they will be as effective as MXE, who knows.

lACDJUy.jpg


source book is a couple of years old now. Some of these chemicals, i blieve the astrazenica NMDA antagonist drug has produced very positive results in the human trials.
 
Don't get me started on mental health services in this country. That is a whole bag of worms that deserves it's own thread. There is probably one but it's late and I'm not looking. You'll never get me to shut up! I get angry at the service or lack there of provided.

When i asked my GP about what mental health services might be available to me on the NHS i was advised to 'search the internet and find my own therapists'. I did just that and could not find any NHS / free services, and many of them charged rates way beyond the means of those on average - low wages. It took several more months of quickly unravelling mental health and acquiring addictions to benzodiazepenes and opiates in the meantime which spiralled out of control PDQ before i next presented to my GP, in a complete psycholigical mess, with new addictions on top to deal with, asking the same questions as before, before any form of mental health services were presented to me.

In a city as big as Manchester there was a choice of 2 charitable organizations to choose from. Thank fuck for charities and the people that set them up and donate to them because there was absolutely nothing state funded available. It turned out that one of the 2 drugs support / mental health support organisations would not accept 'clients' who were currently using drugs (that is so helpful for people presenting with acute drugs problems :|) so it was Hobson's choice which service i did make use of.

I think it was extremely fortunate that the other organisation was able to help me in some meaningful and practical ways, but after a while it became clear that they only had limited resources on hand, so that after 3 or 4 months i had sat through all of their presentations and group exercises etc and it was back to square one, endlessly repeating and recycling the limited number of 'educational exercises' (essentially exercises in anti-drugs brainwashing) that they had. They had some great people on staff there, and some not so great. I guess i was lucky that their best counsellor seemed to want to work with me as some manouvering was done so that i was swapped from an inexperienced fresh out of college counsellor to another one with more warmth, understanding, insight and empathy than i could ever have imagined in my wildest dreams.

Like yourself i could talk forever about this, but it is the wrong thread, like you say. There is a 'mental health support thread' lurking somewhere and it can be esasily located using Knocks 'where is the xxxxxxxxx thread?' sticky that he created. But this thread is the one that is currently a 'hot topic.' I dunno if there's a bit of stigma attached to the other thread, probably not, as many EADD members are amongst the most understanding and non-judgemental people you could ever hope to chat to. Many have probably been in the same boat themselves, or a very similar one, which helps enormously.
 
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There is a huge contrast between mental health provision in england, and mental health provision in scotland. Being in scotland, I got the care I needed when I was at my lowest and they saved my life on several occassions.

I have felt helpless to see friends in england have a completely different experience, left to fend for themselves, and in one case they died because they werent getting the help they needed. It is disgraceful.
 
dopamimetic are you aware of http://www.drugscience.org.uk/ (ISCD) chaired by david nutt and a great team of toxicologists, pharmacologists, neurobiology experts and legal experts. Their primary concern is the way the law is hampering researching and they are fully aware of the therapeutic potential of compounds they simply cannot research because of the pointless law.

Aren't people with Home Office Licences (a term which some vendors seem to like using) allowed to posses these chemicals whether banned or not? Couldn't they just stockpile the chemicals that might be promising or useful for their research whilst they are still available from online vendors? I don't quite understand Nutt's problem whith this particlar line of argument as it seems it could be easily surmounted, presumably he and his team have sufficient resources and all the necessary home office licences to do this.
 
It costs a lot of money to aquire the license, and then the compounds themselves, there is a huge amount of red tape surrounding it too, and also many institutions do not want to be associated with drug research.

This and the law combine to make research into psychoactive drugs almost impossible in the UK. Dr Nutt does not have unlimited resources, the ISCD is a charity.
 
Just an update... it seems the Novel Psychoactive Substance Bill is being rushed through Parliament & not everyone is happy with that:

Legal highs: Psychoactive drugs policy 'rushed', say MPs (You can see the current progress of the bill here)
.

It certainly does seem to be being rushed through. They are at stage 7 out of 12 already. It could cause considerably more problems if it is rushed through months ahead of schedule, for example not giving people time to finish their own personally planned benzo tapers scheduled to complete on or before April 1st 2016.

The Holy Grail of Benzo quitting; The Ashton Manual, is all about the need for long - medium term benzo dependancies to be tapered off a little at a time and very gradually or at a pace that the individual is comfortable with. If tapers are going to have to be rushed or even worse not tapered atall (there must be some people whose lives are so chaotic that they arent planning for this atall) the consequences could be severe. I doubt anyone involved in drafting this legislation has a single fucking clue about any of this.:!

If the bill is rushed through way before April '16 there could be a whole load more admissions to ERs with potentially life threatening seizures together with people presenting with psychological difficulties due to not having enough time for the brain to adjust successfully to dose reductions and eventual complete cessation. This will be when the true extent of the problem becomes clear. RC Benzo dependancies are going to be the biggest public health challenge to come out of all this. None of the other NPS substances are as physically addictive, and liable to cause severe psycholgical damage if not tapered suitably, let alone the risk of seizures atc. If there's any one aspect of all this that requires careful consideration of the potential impact on users health then this is it.:sus::X
 
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You are absolutely right, many people I'm sure are taking these legal benzos regularly in large amounts, unaware of the dangers of rapid cessation, and with their supply suddenly cut off, they will be left to fend for themselves, have seizures, potentially die.
And of course, they will turn to the black market to obtain benzos, potentially criminalising them, exposing them to dealers of other dangerous drugs, and so on.

Hospitals are already under massive pressure trying to cope with legal high problems, and this sudden ban is bound to cause a huge influx of new patients presenting with severe withdrawal symptoms.

The government has no fucking interest in evidence based policy, not just when it comes to drug prohibition but almost every aspect of their activity. Complete disregard for the general public and only interested in doing their financial backers dirty work and feathering their own nests.
 
I'm not expecting common sense and harm reduction from the Tory government or any other maintsream party, i'm just banging on about the lack of it.

I've yet to hear Corbyn's views on the subject, I imagine they would be anti-the current status, but due to the nature of the "commentariat" he's probably going to be extremely wary about voicing his opinions due to the all too predictable and highly damaging lampooning he would get from the conservative press. He probably doesnt want to commit political suicide just yet. That leaves just the Green party, with their one MP, the only party to adopt a common sense approach to the issue, but there's more chance of Elvis Presley winning the lottery than the UK Green Party ever being in a position to implement their policies.

Not suggesting that for one moment anyone on here would be that naive, unfortunately the bleating masses are :(

There is a huge contrast between mental health provision in england, and mental health provision in scotland. Being in scotland, I got the care I needed when I was at my lowest and they saved my life on several occassions.

I have felt helpless to see friends in england have a completely different experience, left to fend for themselves, and in one case they died because they werent getting the help they needed. It is disgraceful.

And in norn Ireland, we have a reasonably good system that the Tories and the fuckwits in Stormont are slowly eroding while they pocket the loot.

You are absolutely right, many people I'm sure are taking these legal benzos regularly in large amounts, unaware of the dangers of rapid cessation, and with their supply suddenly cut off, they will be left to fend for themselves, have seizures, potentially die.
And of course, they will turn to the black market to obtain benzos, potentially criminalising them, exposing them to dealers of other dangerous drugs, and so on.

Hospitals are already under massive pressure trying to cope with legal high problems, and this sudden ban is bound to cause a huge influx of new patients presenting with severe withdrawal symptoms.

The government has no fucking interest in evidence based policy, not just when it comes to drug prohibition but almost every aspect of their activity. Complete disregard for the general public and only interested in doing their financial backers dirty work and feathering their own nests.

A simple culling of the herd to the psychopaths in charge! :(





People will always seek out drugs, it is in us from childhood, anyone ever watch a kid spinning to alter their conciousness? The powers that be know this and they will have a ready made group of slaves to keep the prisons full.

The Govt. has been warned for years that by criminalising they make it more dangerous and give criminals power, more recently they have ample evidence that the Portuguese way works yet they choose to ignore this. They would be charged with criminal neglect/manslaughter if the judicial system wasn't keeping them safe.
 
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