Nootropics & 5-HTP

[Dondante]

Sorry to be getting off topic a bit, but I found this interesting article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16834757&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_DocSum

DM232 (unifiram) and DM235 (sunifiram) are potent cognition-enhancers, which are four order of magnitude more potent than piracetam. These compounds, although not showing affinity in binding studies for the most important central receptors or channels, are able to prevent amnesia induced by modulation of several neurotransmission systems. These compounds are able to increase the release of acetylcholine from rat cerebral cortex, and, as far as unifiram is concerned, to increase the amplitude of fEPSP in rat hippocampal slices. In vitro experiments, performed on hippocampal slices, also supported the hypothesis of a role of the AMPA receptors for the cognition-enhancing properties of unifiram and sunifiram.

A rehash of what already has been said about Piracetam:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16007238&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Piracetam, a derivative of the neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), has a variety of physiological effects that may result, at least in part, from the restoration of cell membrane fluidity. At a neuronal level, piracetam modulates neurotransmission in a range of transmitter systems (including cholinergic and glutamatergic), has neuroprotective and anticonvulsant properties, and improves neuroplasticity. At a vascular level, it appears to reduce erythrocyte adhesion to vascular endothelium, hinder vasospasm, and facilitate microcirculation. This diverse range of physiological effects is consistent with its use in a range of clinical indications. Its efficacy is documented in cognitive disorders and dementia, vertigo, cortical myoclonus, dyslexia, and sickle cell anemia. While high doses are sometimes necessary, piracetam is well tolerated.

Article about idebenone (useful, but not double-blind placebo):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=9706371&query_hl=4&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Within a general cerebral deficit model--inspiratory hypoxia-the dose--effect relationship of idebenone (CAS 58186-27-9), an antioxidant, was studied with regard to selected electrophysiological and psychometric parameters. Seventeen healthy male volunteers (mean age = 32 years, mean BW = 75 kg) received three different oral medications: placebo, idebenone and piracetam (CAS 7491-74-9) as reference. The test drug idebenone was administered in five different dosages, ranging--in 60 mg steps--from 60 to 300 mg t.id. Piracetam was given at a dose level of 800 mg t.i.d. A strict dose-regimen was used in idebenone for safety reasons. Each dosage/medication--except idebenone 300 mg t.i.d.--was given for one week without washouts in between. ... In this pilot study, the target variable, the amplitude of the ERG b-wave indicated a definite antihypoxidotic effect after the highest dosage of idebenone. With 300 mg idebenone t.i.d., ERG b-wave amplitudes increased linearily with increasing duration of treatment. The 'central' AEP P2-amplitude demonstrated a different dose-effect relationship. AEP P2-amplitudes increased with increasing dosages of idebenone. The prolongation of treatment with 300 mg t.i.d. resulted in no further improvement of this parameter (ceiling effect). Subjective ratings (VAS) by the volunteers confirmed the results seen in electrophysiological variables. The findings, however, remain to be confirmed within an adequate double-blind, crossover study design.

 

[Xorkoth]

Xork,

I do wonder whether nootropics are really as fabulously good for you as you are suggesting. I remember a post by someone on BL somewhere who used to take them and then after stopping found that they needed a tropical beach holiday for a year to overcome their accumulated exhaustion. Yeah, they can bring about a great sense of clarity and well-being and can help old codgers think sharply again... but I do wonder what the long long-term effects might be, you know, on someone in their 20s, 30s or 40s who has another 30 or even 60 years to go... time will tell, I guess, but I want to say I do have some doubts whether using nootropics daily like that isn't going to mask how one really feels on some level - especially should all the (perceived) benefits go straight out the window once one has stopped them for a few weeks/months or so.

Especially this 'research' by James South and this Morgenthaler guy - tempting as it sounds, I haven't found any studies that back their claims up and wonder to what extent these guys' bias may be sponsored. Don't get me wrong, I know how good nootropics feel - that's not my point. My point is that I somehow doubt their long-term benefit. Risks such as mental exhaustion when not on these substances may outweigh any benefits that using them may have.

That's odd... the studies I have examined definitely led me to believe that the benefits touted are most likely real. As for safety, piracetam especially, but also hydergine (and maybe centrophenoxine and lecithin) have been studied for over 50 years, primarily in Europe, so in my opinion, negative long-term effects would have been discovered if they existed.

Was that person you know doing other things that could have led to exhaustion? Such as using a lot of drugs? Also, were they using phenibut, because it causes dorwsiness for sure at higher amounts. Personally, I recently became exhausted which caused me some temporary medical problems, but I'm quite sure it was a result of using a lot of psychedelics over the past year coupled with not sleeping for 48 hours once a week or more, on top of getting an average of 5 or 6 hours of sleep a night for over 5 years, and in college getting probably an average of 4 hours a night at most, all 4 years.

 

[psychedelicious]

as xorkoth said, nootropics [piracetam and hydergine in particular] are very beneficial. we are definitely on the same page concerning these drugs. i strongly advocate pregnenolone as a memory aid/synergistic stack:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11744095

note that pregnenolone is the only "neurosteroid" supported by the study. take heed.



as to the original question, i find that piracetam helps to alleviate the occasional mental fog which accompanies a morning dosage of 5-htp, if you insist on taking it in the morning. it helps some fall asleep. let us know how it goes!

 

[Ximot]

are there any long-term studies at all? by long-term I mean of people who started using in their 20s or 30s and kept using until their 70s or so. That's the kind of study where I will accept when it says it's beneficial.

 

[Xorkoth]

^^ I will look around when I have time. I'm pretty sure there are, as it's been studied for over 50 years now and I'm quite sure I remember seeing some. There has certainly been plenty of time for such long-term studies.

 

[Ximot]

Have you gone off them since you've started becoming so enthralled by them? Like, say, a 4-week complete break, just to see what happens to your emotional and mental well-being in that case? Does mood remain stable and does brain fog remain minimal? Those are my concerns.... cos if one needs to continue taking them to assure the benefits remain, or if one might actually feel the worse for wear after using for years and then stopping, then they're not what I'd call beneficial.

Bring on the studies, and I'll certainly give the hydergine/xxracetam combo a go. never been on hydergine cos when I tried it it gave me such a blocked nose I couldn't sleep all night. But when i recently took on eI didn't get that side-effect, so I might be ready for a course... but as I said I have doubts

 

[psychedelicious]

I gone off nootropics for months at a time with no ill effects. The lasting effect I felt was like that of psychedelics, a knowledge of the potential of the mind and an urge to reach that potential without drugs.

 

[Xorkoth]

There are no ill effects for me when stopping nootropics, which I do when I'm not in the normal swing of things, and on the weekends. It takes a while for the benefits to taper off, but they start reducing within a day or two of stopping. However, when I start again it's much easier to get back into the "nootropic groove" than it was the first time I tried them, when my brain had to get to understand what they were doing.

 

[Hewhomustnotbenamed]

Just how altered do nootropics make you feel. I realize its not a whole other state of consiousness as with most drugs, but how does it differ from taking say, a daily multivitamin, where the benefits are extremely subtle to the point of being almost unnoticable. I assume nootropics have more of a presence?

Sorry if this is rudimentry, but I couldn't find a satisfying answer anywhere in this thread.

 

[fizzacyst]

Its kind of hard to describe, but I just feel more awake and focused, and my memory seems improved to an extent.

 

[Hewhomustnotbenamed]

Is it at all like an amphetamine high?

 

[Xorkoth]

^^ Not at all, no. Nootropics make me feel more focused, more balanced emotionally, more "sharp", more mentally active, and they give me greater mental stamina (that is, I never, ever get tired from thinking too hard).

 

[psychedelicious]

I stopped taking piracetam a few months ago because I started taking zopiclone and wanted to keep possible interactions down to a minimum. Stopped the zopiclone a month or so ago and started topiramate and mirtazapine. I'm starting the piracetam again today. Anybody have any experience with tetracyclics or topiramate in conjunction w/ piracetam?

 

[solistus]

What's an appropriate dose of lecithin to start out with? I plan on taking 50mg 5-HTP and somewhere around 800-1000mg piracetam twice daily, along with some amount of lecithin. The lecithin I have is soya based and has 1.69g phosphatidyl choline per 8g (which is their recommended dose).

 

[Xorkoth]

The recommended dose for my lecithin is 2 tbsp, but I only take one because I also take centrophenoxine.

 

[swilow]

^^^What about ginko biloba, is that considered nootropic? Any relevant info?

I've used ginko and lecithin, and got better effect from the ginko biloba.

 

[Dondante]

I started back up a nootropic regimen three days ago. 2.25 mg hydergine once daily + 1600 mg piracetam three times + 800 mg soy lecithin once. So far it has definitely had an effect, but also left me with a constant mild headache. I'm dropping the piracetam down to 1600 mg twice daily now to see if that helps at all.

Xor, did you ever get headaches?

 

[fizzacyst]

I did when taking doses that large. Aniracetam very reliably gave me a headache.

When taking alpha-GPC I did not seem to get them, though. I still did w/ lecithin, but damn, alpha-GPC is so expensive compared to the rest of this stuff.

I am on 1.2g twice daily now, and don't seem to get them.

 

[solistus]

Whoa, that was a random move. Kinda late to be moving an active discussion but I guess a new forum audience is always good.

 

[General alcazar]

5htp has never done anything to me, and the correlation to high levels of serotonin outside of the CNS causing myocardial damage (esp when mixed with b6) makes it seem even less interesting. Can't say I've combined it with nootropics, but on that account I can say that the piracetam, centro, choline and aniracetam stack has made my high stress, quick thinking and multitasking job MUCH easier. There are no obvious effects for me until i am confronted with a situation in which I have to do lots of things fast, make quick educated decisions and become creative with the way i solve problems. I was doing the same thing for a living before starting piracetam and friends, and the difference is not only noticable but obvious. I couldn't dream of working without them (well I could, but it would be waaay harder to get things done fast....).
i have also learned to stop all nootropics a day before using psychedelics. I once took 5 mg of 4acodipt fb and ended up having tremors, chills, and nausea the whole time. This was after working and having recently taken the usual nootropic stack.
Note that low doses of kratom also help with work performance and combine well with nootropics (in the 1g range). However, it is easy to overshoot the stimulant dose and push into the more mind fogging narcotic range, which is obviously counterproductive.
Phenibut is a great way to treat anxiety but does not have the euphoric effects of GHB, and actually reacts oddly with kratom, causing it to be much more stimulating and inhibit sleep. In fact, phenibut really does not help with sleep at all for me, but is a great way to control anxiety and depression in low doses (usually 500 - 1500 mg every 12-24 hours). It also helps a great deal with the dopamine rebound symptoms of quitting GBL. It does not seem to have any nootropic effect, though some claim it has...