in no way does that mean you did "what aa claims can't happen". you're still an alcoholic, you're just working your way back up
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OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Alcohol No drunk after detox?
- Thread starter butcher22
- Start date
in no way does that mean you did "what aa claims can't happen". you're still an alcoholic, you're just working your way back up
AgonyAndEcstasy781
Bluelighter
@Kid Amine
You make good points. There are certainly flaws, and although I've seen the process work countless times in junkies that were essentially hopeless, it's of course possible that using a similar process of finding the strength from the inside they could have recovered in a different manner anyways.
Regarding Bill Willson, he's never been somebody that I've looked up to, from what I've read he was a philandering egomaniac and not much of a role model except in the sense that he was able to recover from crippling alcoholism. I think the strength of the program lies in it's demanding from the addict that they find some spiritual grounding and meaning in life rather than relying on medications and avoiding "triggers". It recognizes the potential and strength of the human spirit to recover, while modern medicine relies on models of classical/operant conditioning and psychopharmacology.
I've seen plenty of people who just get wrapped up completely in the AA scene and seem to blindly follow along without actually understanding what they were doing. Most of them relapsed, it's very difficult to make the complete change in your life that is required, it often does mean starting a new life. I've also seen some disgusting 13-steppers and some ridiculous sober house drama, but addicts are often fairly sick people, especially early in recovery, and that is to be expected. I relapsed with someone I met in rehab and lived with in a halfway house, he ended up ripping me off for a significant sum of cash also.
As to why I was hanging out in bars, at that point I had already full-blown relapsed, and was surprised to see people that I had lived with in sober houses in that environment, enjoying themselves in a social setting without alcohol or drugs. My point was that people don't judge to cloister themselves within the AA culture in sobriety.
As to mainstream therapy, I was referring to countless psychiatrists, medications, therapy, etc. As I mentioned, AA shouldn't be court-ordered, iy makes no sense as its a choice you need yo make yourself and I realization that you need to come to on your own. A judge cannot take your first step for you.
The strength of AA lies in the demand to find a spiritual ground and a meaning to your life, taking responsibility for your behavior rather than blaming the addiction or circumstances, and making reparations to those that you've hurt. The process will allow you to come to terms with aspects of your personality that too often people avoid, and will make you a better person. I'm sure there are ways to do this outside of AA, they simply arent accessible.
I relapsed as I was making my amends, I was totally dissatisfied with my social life and was dealing with a lot of stress at the time. I wish I had hung in there, the reparations I did make were meaningful, I had gone back to university, I really made a lot of progress, but everything fell apart once I got back into a pattern of use. I'm hesitant to return to the whole thing but I have come to accept that the change I need to make needs to come from finding a deeper meaning in life. How I will do that remains to be seen.
You make good points. There are certainly flaws, and although I've seen the process work countless times in junkies that were essentially hopeless, it's of course possible that using a similar process of finding the strength from the inside they could have recovered in a different manner anyways.
Regarding Bill Willson, he's never been somebody that I've looked up to, from what I've read he was a philandering egomaniac and not much of a role model except in the sense that he was able to recover from crippling alcoholism. I think the strength of the program lies in it's demanding from the addict that they find some spiritual grounding and meaning in life rather than relying on medications and avoiding "triggers". It recognizes the potential and strength of the human spirit to recover, while modern medicine relies on models of classical/operant conditioning and psychopharmacology.
I've seen plenty of people who just get wrapped up completely in the AA scene and seem to blindly follow along without actually understanding what they were doing. Most of them relapsed, it's very difficult to make the complete change in your life that is required, it often does mean starting a new life. I've also seen some disgusting 13-steppers and some ridiculous sober house drama, but addicts are often fairly sick people, especially early in recovery, and that is to be expected. I relapsed with someone I met in rehab and lived with in a halfway house, he ended up ripping me off for a significant sum of cash also.
As to why I was hanging out in bars, at that point I had already full-blown relapsed, and was surprised to see people that I had lived with in sober houses in that environment, enjoying themselves in a social setting without alcohol or drugs. My point was that people don't judge to cloister themselves within the AA culture in sobriety.
As to mainstream therapy, I was referring to countless psychiatrists, medications, therapy, etc. As I mentioned, AA shouldn't be court-ordered, iy makes no sense as its a choice you need yo make yourself and I realization that you need to come to on your own. A judge cannot take your first step for you.
The strength of AA lies in the demand to find a spiritual ground and a meaning to your life, taking responsibility for your behavior rather than blaming the addiction or circumstances, and making reparations to those that you've hurt. The process will allow you to come to terms with aspects of your personality that too often people avoid, and will make you a better person. I'm sure there are ways to do this outside of AA, they simply arent accessible.
I relapsed as I was making my amends, I was totally dissatisfied with my social life and was dealing with a lot of stress at the time. I wish I had hung in there, the reparations I did make were meaningful, I had gone back to university, I really made a lot of progress, but everything fell apart once I got back into a pattern of use. I'm hesitant to return to the whole thing but I have come to accept that the change I need to make needs to come from finding a deeper meaning in life. How I will do that remains to be seen.
butcher22
Bluelighter
I honestly don't subscribe to that "you're always an alcoholic" stuff. Yeah, you fuck up your gaba receptors and permanently rewire your brain but once you fully detox and your brain and body levels itself out you are no longer physically addicted. After you get through PAWS I think telling yourself that you will always be an alcoholic is setting yourself up to defeat. I am not saying to deny that you are prone to weakness when it comes to drinking or drugs, but you are not helpless either. I was an alcoholic and a drug addict, now I am not. Simple as that.
Edit: I am addicted to phenibut but I am no longer addicted to alcohol or hard drugs.
Edit: I am addicted to phenibut but I am no longer addicted to alcohol or hard drugs.
AgonyAndEcstasy781 quit drinking the koolaid, you sound like a completely brainwashed cult member.
While I do believe AA/NA has positives, as any group of support can be beneficial, it is based on faulty opinions and the concept of spirituality, which has no fucking place within the treatment of addiction. The basis of NA/AA being primarily white and black, all or nothing, fuels a self fulfilling prophecy that often falls out of favor with many, quite frankly, it often is proven wrong more often then they'll ever be openly willing to admit. When it comes to mental health, no other field relies on the reliance of a spiritual higher power, a scientific invalidity to the tenth degree. It is bat shit crazy that the root of addictive medicine is grounded in this. As to how science has been completely overlooked and the general consensus has sided with this, but also promoted, is fucking despicable. It is all a bullshit placebo, you can rewrite the 12 steps anyway you want with the idea of benefit spoon fed to the gullible, with a little bit a faith and sheer desperation, trust me, a minority will find benefit. I see this with religion/cults where people faithfully insist that these groups saved their life, even from the grasp of addiction, AA/NA is one in the same.
While I do believe AA/NA has positives, as any group of support can be beneficial, it is based on faulty opinions and the concept of spirituality, which has no fucking place within the treatment of addiction. The basis of NA/AA being primarily white and black, all or nothing, fuels a self fulfilling prophecy that often falls out of favor with many, quite frankly, it often is proven wrong more often then they'll ever be openly willing to admit. When it comes to mental health, no other field relies on the reliance of a spiritual higher power, a scientific invalidity to the tenth degree. It is bat shit crazy that the root of addictive medicine is grounded in this. As to how science has been completely overlooked and the general consensus has sided with this, but also promoted, is fucking despicable. It is all a bullshit placebo, you can rewrite the 12 steps anyway you want with the idea of benefit spoon fed to the gullible, with a little bit a faith and sheer desperation, trust me, a minority will find benefit. I see this with religion/cults where people faithfully insist that these groups saved their life, even from the grasp of addiction, AA/NA is one in the same.
Phenibut isn't heroin, but, surely nothing to make light of.
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mostly-human
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 1,055
I'm interested to know, how old you are now, how long you abused alcohol and benzos for, how old you were when you started abusing them.
I ask this, because I've always thought of the AA abstinence thing is bullshit, completely abstaining form substance has never been my goal and probably never will be. That said, I'm in my thirties now and have struggled with addiction since my teens. The older I get and the more times I relapse, the more I begin to wonder if maybe abstinence *IS* the only real solution. that said, I value quality of life far too much to ever make that my goal.
butcher22
Bluelighter
yteek, you hit the nail on the head. i couldnt agree more. and yeah, i know phenibut isn't heroin but i felt like a hypocrite saying im not an addict when i am shoveling phenny in my mouth and up my nose every day so i edited it