NEWS: News.com.au - 8/11/2005 'Ecstasy may cause social withdrawal'

[hoptis]

Ecstasy may cause social withdrawal
By Janelle Miles
November 08, 2005

ECSTASY is known as the love drug but research on rats suggests in the long term the drug may cause social withdrawal, an Australian scientist has found.

Psychopharmacologist Iain McGregor, of the University of Sydney, said a short-term study on rats confirmed the widely reported immediate effects in humans of a strong feeling of love and closeness towards others.

"The rats became very sociable on the drug," Associate Professor McGregor said.

Their sociability increased the warmer the environment - mimicking a hot and sweaty rave party or nightclub where ecstasy is often consumed.

But Dr McGregor said long-term studies of rats given ecstasy found they eventually became anti-social, depressed, anxious and stressed.

"They didn't interact with new rats that they met in the way that a normal rat that's never had ecstasy would," he said.

The anti-social effects occurred even after relatively brief exposure to ecstasy.

Dr McGregor presented the results to the Australasian Professional Society on Alcohol and Other Drugs' conference in Melbourne which ends tomorrow.

He said the research suggested ecstasy tapped into brain systems regulating social behaviour.

"One way of thinking of this is that when you take ecstasy, you get this incredible boost through the brain circuits that are involved in social behaviour," he said.

"But we think there's a long-term cost. The drug may cause a lasting change in the brain circuitry so over time, you're not as sociable as you would have been had you never taken ecstasy.

"Obviously, research on rats doesn't absolutely prove that the same thing is happening with humans, but it gives us some cause for concern."

Studies on humans have suggested a link between ecstasy and depression, anxiety disorders and social withdrawal.

Dr McGregor said giving the rats anti-depressants failed to improve their abnormal social behaviour.

The researchers plan to continue the research by studying ecstasy's effect on a hormone called oxytocin, known as being important for bonding between mother and child.

"Ecstasy causes a release of oxytocin," Dr McGregor said.

"It's one of the reasons people tend to fall in love on the drug because of that oxytocin effect.

"Ecstasy may be having a huge effect on oxytocin in the short term but in the longer term, there could be some depletion or some abnormal effect."

From News.com.au / AAP

 

[johnboy]

I saw this presentation at the Club Health conference. I wasn't overly convinced or impressed by it. I seldom am by anything to do with lab rats.

At the end his last slide thanked his sponsors. Second on the list? The Brewer's Association...

 

[Cowboy Mac]

I also saw it, and was impressed by it. However as he has stated the results are certainly not conclusive as they only indicative of what occurs in rat models. It raises some interesting areas for further research to be done.

 

[Yossarian_is_sane]

Is anyone awareof the timeframe/dosage levels he means by 'enventually'? (I know they're rats so that may not help me any but i'm curious)

 

[drug_wench]

im sure thats the case if theyre force-feeding E 2 rats by the day - we all know uve got 2 recover from ur last pill before the next
most E poppers only pop in the weekends
poor lil ratties

 

[nuzza]

In a way I sort of agree with this..

I mean if you take alot of sleeping pills you depend on them for sleep.. So if you take something that helps you socialize you might have issues socializing without it.. Seems to have some clarity??

 

[Urbie]

Yeah Nuzza know what you mean.

Knew this couple were shy and anti-social, just happy stay home watch movies/tv, and I kinda introduced them to e's and they became so socialable, and friendly and loved it, and they changed so much and they suddenly dropped every weekend, because it somewhat helped them to "step out of the shy closet" and loved going out on weekends.

But that when they only get their hands on e's and they "couldn't" be bothered to go out and be socialable if they didn't have e's, they just kinda went back to old ways and rather stay home and watch tv/movies with a bottle of wine or two along with it.

For some people.... I mean.

 

[Cowboy Mac]

From memory, and I could be wrong here, even after a single dose three months later they still exhibited less sociable tendencies. Have a look and see if a paper has been published yet.

 

[Urbie]

Mac.... you mean they claim become more anti-social than they orginally were before they first took MD**?

 

[Ewok]

I would say that E has had some similar affects on me. I find myself constantly in the 'can't be bothered' mindframe when meeting people. There has actually been times when people talk to me and I will just stare at them because I can't be bothered opening my mouth. Maybe I'm just lazy...

 

[endlesseulogy]

Haha...

They are using rats to study the human psyche?

What a joke..

I dont even agree with people using humans to study the human psyche!

Drug reactions are dependant on set and setting.. when will these "scientists" learn?

Reality is 100% relative and everyone experiences it differently. There is no way possible to come up with conclusions like this.

 

[Cowboy Mac]

Mac.... you mean they claim become more anti-social than they orginally were before they first took MD**?

Yep. That was the finding.

 

[xcidium]

"They didn't interact with new rats that they met in the way that a normal rat that's never had ecstasy would," he said.

It's quite clear, these rats were Jaded.

 

[static_mind]

There has actually been times when people talk to me and I will just stare at them because I can't be bothered opening my mouth. Maybe I'm just lazy...

That is sooo lazy...

 

[Doppelganger]

I'd say this is 100% true for me.

Everytime I've taken ecstacy [which is a lot] I've been extremely withdrawn after the effects wear off. Like, really, really, really withdrawn... as in, I don't say a word. I have had no ill effects whilst on the drug.

The immediate social withdrawal never bothered me - I was completely comfortable in it. I think it got to my friends more... They thought something 'must be wrong' or 'I was pissed with them'... I guess they weren't used to finding me so speechless. Mind you, these are people who know me well and I'm comfortable around them, with or without drugs.

It's definately had long-term impacts as well. I'm much more prone to isolate for longer periods of time these days [although I'm normally not depressed].

Doesn't bother me in the least. It's just the way it is. Besides, I think I needed to be that little less social.. Being as social as I naturally am doesn't really suit all my other responsibilities.

 

[Cowboy Mac]

I'd say this is 100% true for me.

Everytime I've taken ecstacy [which is a lot] I've been extremely withdrawn after the effects wear off. Like, really, really, really withdrawn... as in, I don't say a word. I have had no ill effects whilst on the drug.

The short term post effects are normal as you deplete your serotonin stores, however this article was referring to a permanent change for a long time after you have recovered.

 

[gher]

It certainly makes sense, considering loss of magic is often associated with boredom of a particularly social scene or whatever. I've been cutting down on my pill intake this year and I can easily say I'm not as sociable now as I was a year ago, though the other drugs may have had an effect on this as well.

Before I completely believe this article, I'd like to know the size and frequency of MDMA doses given to the rats.

 

[chugs]

Mod's did you guys get any hand outs on this presentation? Are you able to get the article? Has it gone through peer review? Do you think it's likely someone will ever try and repeat this experiment? It would seem to this experiment has many possible problems. What if the rats utilised had genetics abnormalities which made them more susceptible to certain consequences after taking MDMA?

When the rats were dissected did they measure low amounts of serotonin or any other change in the brains of the rats compared to the control group? Were the rats given courses of anti-oxidants before and after being dosed with MDMA?

Are we sure it was actually MDMA utilised? Is the person who conducted the study reputable? Why would a scientist who receives funding from the brewers association be conducting research on MDMA and anti-social behaviour? Was this the only study that gave concern for MDMA? Is there a pattern that scientists with backers/sponsors, who have a vested interest against MDMA, tend to release research that casts negative outlooks onto MDMA users?

I would love it if someone did a empirical study on MDMA users and the amount of anti-social/criminal behavior said group engages in, and then compare that against the general population and say people who only use alcohol. Repeat this study but in the context of depression. I would be willing to make a large wager that MDMA will come out on top, even for the general population, in practically any context that you research.

On a personal note MDMA has improved my sociability (I hated raves and people before I took MDMA). I'm far more socialable, even though I only pop a few times a year. I talk to people on trains, buses, elevators, footpaths, shopping centres, pubs, and hell I hate people and despise most of the population. All the people I know are more sociable, open and empathetic now (even though some of them have ceased taking MDMA), then prior to consuming it.

If anything I would say that the MDMA the rats were given them enlightened them, made them evolve slightly and realise the depressing single minded nature of their fellow rats (who are only concerned in food/fucking/food, in that order). If I was a rat, given MDMA I would be extremely depressed being in the boring, sterile environment lab rats live their uneventful and terrible lives in.

It is commonly known that lab rats are quite aggressive, hence the term polar bears. At a laboratory I used to go all the time I heard of many tales of unit going on xmas holidays only to return to find a very well feed, and very aggressive, mouse who had eaten his fellow companions. Many a time rats were put down after biting staff and scientists alike.

I would say however this study was limited, flawed, and difficult to transpose onto the complex and very different brain chemistry which governs the human mind.

 

[Splatt]

It's like I can see this rather than explain it. But I don't think this proves "permanent" or "brain adamage" at all.. More a habit/dependance type thing. By memory to get that extreme socialableless, we need to have that thing that makes us socialise better... Humans are the same but a tad bit more smarter.. Maybe these results would decrease while the rat slowly comes out of "psychosis"

 

[endlesseulogy]

^^ I find it hard that people are actually taking these findings seriously

But Dr McGregor said long-term studies of rats given ecstasy found they eventually became anti-social, depressed, anxious and stressed.

What a joke?

Since when have they gained the ability to peer inside the psyche of a rat?

Talk about an assumption... Unless Dr Scotty McGregor has found a new technique of communicating with rats.. and the rats trust him enough to divulge their every emotion!

Even if we could, how then could we judge what effect the highly erractic and unpredictable effects of psychedelic drugs have on rats, when we still dont understand their effects on humans?!

This study has absolutly no credibility.


SO what if MDMA makes one more anti-social in the long term.. what is wrong with that? Or does that sorta go against our programmed existance?

Its only a problem if you make it one. People have to learn to love and take advantage of every change and implement that into their lives, instead of resisting and trying to force re-order on their psyche.

This article seems like a bit of propaganda to me.. ANTI SOCIAL is rather a buzz word in our society.. its viewed as a BAD thing.. it makes people go OH NO!! DRUGS ARE BAD!!