Jordan`
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That's a great attitude but remember you only finish school once
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NEWS : 17.11.09 - Schoolies urged to say no to drugs by grieving mother
- Thread starter kingpin007
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PsiloSubNaut
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This line is A+
Among the them?
Someones high...
Among the them?
Someones high...
Sameria
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PsiloSubNaut
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They like to pump it out
The more you read the more you notice it
"There are number of dogs"
There's an A missing in there somewhere
The more you read the more you notice it
"There are number of dogs"
There's an A missing in there somewhere
shtonkalot
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I think this attitude is a bit harsh and not particularly helpful.
I cannot fault a parent for wanting others to not do the thing they believe killed their child. I find it quite a reasonable position for a parent to have given the circumstances.
However, I'm a parent. I take drugs and I expect my children will too, I'm quite aware of the dangers of different drugs though and think that because of that fact alone my children will be safer in the same circumstances.
I have more concern about my children using alcohol than "Ecstasy" but that is largely because I can (within reason) ensure that my kids know the difference between a 'pill', 'ecstasy' and MDMA and the safest practical ways to take such a drug.
Most children in this country (IMHO) are brought up by parents without a good knowledge of drugs, this includes legal drugs (tobacco and alcohol) and prescription medications. Yet the usual view of people I meet either parents or not is that if it's legal it's not that bad. Most parents don't mind the idea of a 16 year old getting a bit tipsy as much as the thought of their little boy/girl taking a brain melting blotter of ACID!
All the evidence I've found shows that the alcohol has a higher risk of making permanent detrimental changes but everyone drinks alcohol.. can't be that bad.. I'm ok when I don't drink so much so I'm sure little jimmy can have a few sips...
What I'm getting at is that I believe it is not fair to expect a grieving parent to understand this. When people get facts about things they don't have experience with that shows reality doesn't match their ideas they fight it. I think that's the same for us all.
I believe the shift needs to be larger. Society will have to accept that the majority take drugs and that is normal before individuals can be expected to have a realistic view of the dangers of drugs.
I'd really like to know why the mother doesn't have an answer as to whether the drug taken by her daughter was PMA or MDMA. Shouldn't this be something investigated and found post mortem? I assume that the parents would have the right to deny such forensic investigation and maybe that is the case here. I'd want to know, though it's hard to say when faced with such a situation what view you would have in regards to drug information.
I'd like to think that given the same circumstances I would be reporting to the media that a "pill" killed my child and the reason why is because of the drug laws we have making it next to impossible for people especially risk taking teenagers to know what it is they are taking. There are plenty more points to be made in regards to drug prohibition and the relation to deaths from users but that would be what I hope I would get across.
I can't say if that day ever occurred I wouldn't change my opinion though.
shtonkalot
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I think this exchange highlights drug taking issues though. Whilst it may be understood that you are differentiating between illegal drugs and alcohol I don't understand why.
I think this is the sort of change that needs to happen to get drug education out to the public. My opinion is we (the informed drug users) need to stop treating alcohol differently to illegal drugs to make the change we are looking for. I don't realistically expect it will happen, sorta hard to treat a baggie of powder the same as a bottle of beer in the drug sense when everything you've learned is one is bad and the other is acceptable. More than acceptable even, there is a accepted drinking culture that makes it cool to the public to relax with a drink.
So I sigh a little when I hear people differentiate but that is not because they are not different, just because the differences people care about with alcohol compared to other drugs (and even pot to other drugs) are things that don't make sense to me. The only time I think it's relevant to mention "alcohol" and "drugs" together is when talking about the legality. Apart from that just "drugs" is the right term. Alcohol isn't a bigger problem than drugs, drugs aren't a problem. Peoples understanding of drugs is the issue in my mind.
blau1005
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I agree with most of the points in this post.
drug_mentor, you have to agree that (especially at the moment, and especially at schoolies) the chances of someone uneducated getting a dodgy pill are pretty reasonable, so if they aren't getting any HR education then 'just say no' is better than nothing at all. I absolutely agree that HR education is a better strategy again but these kids aren't likely to get that so I'd want my kid to at least hear about something like this happening and appreciate the risk involved in taking pills; even it's not going to stop them from taking pills at least they would be aware there is some danger involved.
The worst strategy from a harm reduction perspective is nothing being said at all about the dangers of taking X drug, something which you seem to agree with in relation to alcohol.
It's not helpful to condemn people like this mother; remember that she has roughly the same goals as us on the HR side of the fence - to reduce drug related harm. She just has a different approach. I think it's far more useful to educate these people and direct their obvious emotion and passion into a more effective method of achieving that goal - namely HR education and policy.
Jakeperson
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Lets just change that original post then shall we and insert some sobriety.
Alcohol is a far larger problem anyways, fix that first.
The way I talk isn't very well reflected in text and I was not at all trying to differentiate between legal and illegal drugs just show that alcohol causes more problems than "illegal" drugs at events like these. I also don't enjoy people from other parts of the world coming to AUSDD to treat me like an idiot.
And you're very right with the understanding thing, the problem is some people just don't/won't ever understand in their lifetime(s). Both legal and illegal drugs are ALWAYS going to cause problems no matter what their legal status is because it all comes down to the user. Some people are just idiots.
shtonkalot
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It's nothing to take offence at, I find it impossible to convey my thoughts through language properly.
The language you've used does differentiate though and that was the point I was making. The use of such language reinforces the idea that they are different, people talk about drugs and alcohol all the time and it gives a view that they are different, why else would they be mentioned separately? Again this is not an attack on your ability to convey meaning through text, just me pointing out that the attitude of them being different (in regards to being or not being a "drug") is so persuasive that people completely aware that alcohol is 'just another drug' treat it differently to other drugs when communicating about it.
Even this is not sitting right in my head though. I think the idea of "drugs" is the bigger problem. A drug can be discussed for it's merits and dangers but "drugs" cannot. I've never met a drug free person, to me everyone that's had a soda or a coffee is a drug user in the real sense. So maybe instead of including alcohol in a discussion about drugs we should be discussing a particular drug or all drugs as separate things?
I don't have a good solution but I recognise some things that I think are hindering harm reduction, language about the drugs used is one of them.
In the news story "drugs" are mentioned several times, it is easy to read the story and see "drugs" as a bad thing. I doubt anyone will read it and refuse a cup of coffee because of it though. If the title of the story was to be taken literally then this grieving mother wants all the diabetic schoolies to stop taking their insulin. To me this is where language fails and we make our own ideas about such things as "drugs".
chugs
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how sad. No one deserves to die simply because they wanted to change their state of consciousness. Worse still manipulating a mothers guilt and pain to believe that a simplistic banal message in a newspaper would assuage her feelings of failing her daughter.
the problem is that the possibility of death just ain't, and the heartache it causes those left behind, enough to deter humans from risky behaviour.
the real question is how to make it safer as opposed to banal "don't do it".
the world just ain't that simplistic that 3 words could stop a drugs industry that worth over $500 billion a year.
What's despicable are those who are happy to play politics with real pain.
Jakeperson
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I wish they would mention how much and of what was consumed.
drug_mentor
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I gotta disagree schtonkalot and blau1005, if my kid died I would want to learn as much as possible about what killed them and understand how and why it happened. "Just say no" never worked on anybody and while obviously there are dangers to taking pills this attitude does nothing to prevent them. If she had bothered to learn anything about the real risks of ecstasy then she could have used her time in the spotlight to give some advice that had a chance of making a difference.
Its just a stupid attitude, I understand she is a grieving parent but that doesn't really make ignorance any more acceptable imho. People die doing all sorts of shit, it doesn't mean that doing these activities are inherently unsafe and even if it did it clearly makes more sense to help people minimise the dangers than to just lecture them not to do it. I reckon if every single pill that gets munched at schoolies was pipes or any other dodgy crap you want to name that alcohol would still have overall caused more harm via fights, sexual assaults, car accidents and alcohol poisoning.
Its just a stupid attitude, I understand she is a grieving parent but that doesn't really make ignorance any more acceptable imho. People die doing all sorts of shit, it doesn't mean that doing these activities are inherently unsafe and even if it did it clearly makes more sense to help people minimise the dangers than to just lecture them not to do it. I reckon if every single pill that gets munched at schoolies was pipes or any other dodgy crap you want to name that alcohol would still have overall caused more harm via fights, sexual assaults, car accidents and alcohol poisoning.
Miguel Sanchez
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I dunno DM, imho, her reaction is very understandabe. Unfortunately (although like most of us here on BL I believe its due to a lack of responsbile information and fearmongering) our views on drugs are currently in the minority in this country. And that is especially the case when compared to people who are of the generation that have kids in their mid to late teens. I can't imagine what it would be like to lose a kid, but wanting to be angry and blame something seems pretty understandable to me, especially if you were a 40 something with typically conservative views on drugs. Its frustrating as hell but I understand it
I hesitate to say this but it reminds me of Anna Wood's dad who is now a virulent ant-drugs campainger. I remember once reading that he said anybody caught with any drugs should face mandatory jail time. I thought 'so if your daugheter was still around she should go to jail?' But would I have the guts to say it to his face? Probably not.
shtonkalot
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I get what you are saying, I'd like to believe that the same would be true for me. However I fail to see how you can assure people how you would react to the death of your child, this is the big variable. If I lost either of my children it would change my life so drastically I cannot begin to tell you how I would react. Unless you can see the future I don't buy your story on your not had yet reaction.. sorry
"just say no" works for plenty of people plenty of the time. It may not work for the 'right reasons' by using fear to keep people from doing something potentially dangerous but it does work for many. "just say no" doesn't work on the large scale but I fail to see the point of it not working for anybody. Maybe you could explain that to me?
OK, now I don't want you to feel I'm just trying to argue with you or attack you but it may come across that way. disclaimer over
I have a real problem with the attitude being put forth by you on this though. Claiming people have a stupid attitude when they sit on the other side of the argument is less than helpful IMO. I get the feeling that many BLers have an attitude of us or them, either for or against drugs. Someone can have a different view point without it needing to be "stupid" and there are many reasons for people to believe the things they do, it's not based on the cold hard facts or else religion wouldn't be so popular.
I think it's important to try and understand the point of view of "the other side" if you are trying to get them to understand yours. How are we supposed to get harm minimisation messages across to a grieving parent if we are just attacking their actions and attitudes in the face of disaster?
The other problem is that I see you using "I reckon" arguments and then say things like "If she had bothered to learn anything about the real risks of ecstasy". This is to me like saying "drugs are bad", we can have an informed opinion over what we reckon is likely to happen based on our experience. Just like the grieving Mum. Should that be the basis of an argument for harm minimisation though? I think not. I believe the facts are what should come in to play here. Otherwise it can just end up with a pair of stupid attitudes being argued and people ignoring the reality of the situation.
I'm just trying to look at what can be gained from such a media story rather than just saying 'it sucks!'.
drug_mentor
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My main point of "just say no" not working for anybody is that less people smoke cannabis in Holland than do in America or Australia and that drug use didn't increase in Portugal after decriminalisation. People who want to do drugs will do them, people who don't wont do them, all "just say no" is achieving is making a higher percentage of those who choose not to do drugs think they have a right to look down on people who make the choice to use.
You are right that I can't say I would know exactly how I would react if my kid died but I generally over analyse things so I think saying I would do as much investigation into the cause as possible is a fair assumption, I could be wrong.
The 2 reasons this bothers me so much are the fact that alcohol gets NO mention even though its easily going to cause the most damage but because its legal its fine. Also if someone whos kid died actually educated themselves as to why and understood that if their child had tested their pills and practised HR then they probably would not have died. If the parent of someone who died from drugs actually used their 15 minutes to voice HR I think a lot more people opposed to the idea would hear what they had to say and theres alot more chance of them taking it on board. Someone in this position could potentially stop it happening to other people, all they have done by spouting this crap is wasted their own time and everyone who reads the articles time. The only people benefitting are the ones seeling this shite and prohibitionists.
You are right that I can't say I would know exactly how I would react if my kid died but I generally over analyse things so I think saying I would do as much investigation into the cause as possible is a fair assumption, I could be wrong.
The 2 reasons this bothers me so much are the fact that alcohol gets NO mention even though its easily going to cause the most damage but because its legal its fine. Also if someone whos kid died actually educated themselves as to why and understood that if their child had tested their pills and practised HR then they probably would not have died. If the parent of someone who died from drugs actually used their 15 minutes to voice HR I think a lot more people opposed to the idea would hear what they had to say and theres alot more chance of them taking it on board. Someone in this position could potentially stop it happening to other people, all they have done by spouting this crap is wasted their own time and everyone who reads the articles time. The only people benefitting are the ones seeling this shite and prohibitionists.
i couldnt agree more, im sick of hearing stories like this, especially the fact that she thinks it was PMA that made her daughter overdose when she has little to no knowledge of ecstasy and has heard it "can" be in pills and is very dangerous, and if it was so bad there would have been a lot more od's not just the one off bad pill containing PMA.
I finished last year and have to admit that schoolies was a great week, filled with most of the excesses that make parents shiver. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m all for harm minimisation, legalisation and all that jazz but I still think if there were less drugs up at schoolies it wouldn’t of been a bad thing. The problem with illegal drugs in these situations in particular is the fact that the ‘stuff it’ attitude prevails- I mean its not that big a problem to have a Piperzine comedown when you can spend all the next day getting blazed.
I really do love ecstasy (and many would probably say am infatuated with it), but I’ll admit when it came to schoolies the fact that we didn’t know the people we were buying pills of meant that I ate some real shit but wasn’t too fussed beyond the fact that they didn’t give the high we wanted. I can’t speak for everyone, but I can say that in my group- those who did drop (myself included) were being far dumber at schoolies than we generally are. So if a article like this scares a few people out of dropping at schoolies its not a bad thing
Yeah, you only finish school once and schoolies is fun, but from my experience drugs were a fair pain in the arse. There are plenty of parties at clubs for results, end of exams, and just about every other excuse where you can buy off people you know, dance in circles and hug strangers
I really do love ecstasy (and many would probably say am infatuated with it), but I’ll admit when it came to schoolies the fact that we didn’t know the people we were buying pills of meant that I ate some real shit but wasn’t too fussed beyond the fact that they didn’t give the high we wanted. I can’t speak for everyone, but I can say that in my group- those who did drop (myself included) were being far dumber at schoolies than we generally are. So if a article like this scares a few people out of dropping at schoolies its not a bad thing
Yeah, you only finish school once and schoolies is fun, but from my experience drugs were a fair pain in the arse. There are plenty of parties at clubs for results, end of exams, and just about every other excuse where you can buy off people you know, dance in circles and hug strangers
Jakeperson
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I found weed on a piperazine come down to amplify all the negative effects besides nausea.