Misc need insight on Cobra

[Swimmingdancer]

I don't think the price policy has anything against posting the price of a snake... Unless you're going to get high off the snake...

Bahahahaha That totally cracked me up!


This is a fascinating thread. I have heard of people letting snakes bite them in order to have a recreational or spiritual experience.

 

[RattleSnake]

I think this snake venom thing has a lot of potential, I mean we only know of drugs that are (relatively) simple molecules, proteins are way more complex, I mean we are just tapping the surface of drugs... who knows what people will use in the future...

 

[kokaino]

Rattlesnake, it depends on who you get it from and how rare the species is. You have to have some snake handling experience before you decide to get into getting "hots". They are no joke, the mortality rate for Naja naja might be low - but that doesn't mean under the right conditions a bite from one can't kill you. Naja naja is not the best starter cobra. Its a little on the nervous side, at least the ones I've worked with. One minute they can be angelic and the next they turn into a demon. I'd start off with a Naja kaouthia (Monocled cobra). They tend to be calmer and they don't grow as big. Both Naja naja and Naja kaouthia are about equally venomous based on LD50 studies, maybe the Monocled cobra is slightly more toxic but the difference is negligible.

Don't get a spitter as a starter, they can be hell. Don't even think of getting any mambas, especially not the black mamba. I've been doing this for years now and I still will not touch a black mamba with a ten foot pole.

My advice to you is get some snake handling training, order antivenom online for the species you are planning to get and learn and read as much as you can first. Since this isn't a drug discussion, prices for cobras range from $50 to over $1000 for rare and special species.

DO NOT START with any of the following cobras:

Naja melanoleuca (forest cobra) - these guys can be evil and they grow large. Never seen a forest cobra that wasn't aggressive.
Naja samarensis (Samar cobra) - these guys are medium, fast and they are super aggressive. Unfortunately, they are one of the cobras that just never settle down in captivity. Very, very dangerous.
Naja oxiana (Central Asian cobra) - this one is the second most venomous cobra species, so a bite can be lethal very very fast. They are also aggressive and even the most trained and experienced of herpers respect this species.
Naja nivea (Cape cobra) - small, fast and very very venomous. Not too too aggressive, but the venom is deadly.
Naja philippensis (Philippine cobra) - the most venomous species of cobra, highly aggressive and a bite will kill u quickly.
Naja sputatrix (Javan spitting cobra) - this spits A LOT and is highly aggressive. Venom is very toxic.

 

[BruceLeeSwag]

By not only doing something that is medically questionable, using snake venom recreationally also contributes to the cruelty towards animals, as the snakes (some of which are a protected species) are killed to harvest the venom.

Don't do it.

snakes are not killed directly by harvesting venom, all snakes venom is being harvested for anti-venom also.

 

[sekio]

There may be some truth to this, I remember that there are some peptides in snake venom that have painkilling activity. I remember there was an analog of one of them that was clinically trialed but it turned out to have rather poor pharmacokinetics or toxicity.

That said, compounds were administered IV and were not neccesarily euphoric or fun.

 

[DooMMooD]

That's how its done whether you think it's "retarded" or not.

Thats actually not how its done at all...

Snake venom is EXPENSIVE. Antivenins even more so. They keep that bitch alive and "milk em" every day. You think they just get 1 limited harvest out of a crazy venomous snake they've finally managed to get in a cage? They want that thing alive. All about profit.

As for the rest of this alls I have to say is good fucking luck lol. Some antivenins are no longer produced for lack of profit (again, $$$) so heres hoping the antivenin you need is still profitable for the company!

 

[RattleSnake]

isn't the monocled cobra a spitter? and I read somewhere they are the number one killers in Thailand... I know a lot about snakes and I had some training in handling them, but never actually handled a venomous snake... just the natrix natrix which looks cool and I actually trained it, well not like a dog to roll over or stuff like that, but it would wrap around my hand and i carried it to a lot of places like that... scares the shit out of most women xD I am interested in naja naja just because it grows big, yet I don't want the king because it is too dangerous... I wouldn't carry a cobra around my hand, it would just be in the terrarium and the only contact would be when I feed it... so the "personality" of the snake isn't that big of an issue, I am also interested in Xenodermus javanicus but I already know I will never even see one in person since they're so rare... what is the best place to start looking for a naja naja? could I go to the zoo and ask them, because in my country there are no snake farms and the only place that has a naja is the zoo or could I contact some snake farms online to ship it to me or something?

 

[kokaino]

Thats actually not how its done at all...

Snake venom is EXPENSIVE. Antivenins even more so. They keep that bitch alive and "milk em" every day. You think they just get 1 limited harvest out of a crazy venomous snake they've finally managed to get in a cage? They want that thing alive. All about profit.

As for the rest of this alls I have to say is good fucking luck lol. Some antivenins are no longer produced for lack of profit (again, $$$) so heres hoping the antivenin you need is still profitable for the company!

Snakes of the same species are collected from different localities to produce effective antivenom. Venom toxicity and venom composition can vary from specimen to specimen depending on the locality. In Africa for example, the South African Institute for Medical Research (SAIMR) produces a polyvalent antivenom that is effective against a number of African snake species (elapids, not vipers) including black mambas, Cape cobras, Egyptian cobras, and a number of other snake species. They collect venom from specimens from all different localities and milk them in special laboratories by trained professionals.

Antivenom is expensive (even by Western standards), snake venom is not (not by Western standards, at least). Most snake species are abundant and snake populations are generally on the rise in both Africa and Asia. They are highly prolific and they have very few predators.

The black mamba carries a mortality rate of 100% if a bite is left untreated and in many parts of Africa, this is still the case despite advances in technology and antivenom production. Swaziland, for example, is in the grips of a black mamba nightmare. "AntiVenom Swazi" is a charitable foundation that was founded in Swaziland to combat black mamba bites. Mortality rate from a bite is still close to 100% in that nation from this particular species of snake and that is due to lack of proper medical care, lack of drugs, lack of antivenom and unequipped hospitals. Most cobra victims live through bites, mortality rate for most cobra species is generally low (5-15% ). Puff adder bite victims are even more likely to live through a bite (mortality can be as low as 5% ) - however, amputations of limbs are common. Antivenom doesn't just treat the bite of one species - that's why they are called "poly-valent" serums. So I don't get where you get the idea that "some antivenoms aren't even produced anymore". In both Africa and Asia, all species of snakes that cause human fatalities have a specific antivenom, usually polyvalent serums that are capable of treating bites from up to 10 different species of snake bites.

The only snakes that antivenom generally doesn't work for are krait bites. Bungarus multicinctus or also known as the "many-banded krait" carries a mortality rate of 85% and even with antivenom, the mortality rate is as high as 50% or more.

 

[kokaino]

isn't the monocled cobra a spitter? and I read somewhere they are the number one killers in Thailand... I know a lot about snakes and I had some training in handling them, but never actually handled a venomous snake... just the natrix natrix which looks cool and I actually trained it, well not like a dog to roll over or stuff like that, but it would wrap around my hand and i carried it to a lot of places like that... scares the shit out of most women xD I am interested in naja naja just because it grows big, yet I don't want the king because it is too dangerous... I wouldn't carry a cobra around my hand, it would just be in the terrarium and the only contact would be when I feed it... so the "personality" of the snake isn't that big of an issue, I am also interested in Xenodermus javanicus but I already know I will never even see one in person since they're so rare... what is the best place to start looking for a naja naja? could I go to the zoo and ask them, because in my country there are no snake farms and the only place that has a naja is the zoo or could I contact some snake farms online to ship it to me or something?

Here is a list of venomous snakes for sale! This place is legit!

Well, Naja naja (Indian cobra) typically grows about 6 ft, but the Monocled cobra (Naja kaouthia) grows up to about 4 (sometimes a little less), and no the monocled cobra does NOT spit. It is the number 1 cause of snakebite in Thailand but Naja naja causes far more snakebites in India than the monocled cobra does in Thailand. The King cobra is actually not too bad (btw, the king is not a true cobra and is not part of the genus Naja). Almost all of the smaller cobras in the genus Naja are more venomous and many are far more aggressive and dangerous than the King. I'd take a bite from a King before I'd take one from a Forest cobra or a Philippine cobra.

In the end it is all up to you. Monocled cobras are IMO the best starter cobras, followed by a Naja annulata or Naja christyi. Naja naja could be an okay starter, but IMO I think it could be a bit too much for a beginner to handle. They aren't too aggressive, but they are wiry and they are always on alert. They can be unpredictable.

 

[RattleSnake]

thanks kokaino you helped a lot... I'll try to get my hands on a monocled cobra, hope they can ship it to Europe without having to pay 10 times more than what I pay for the snake

 

[DooMMooD]

I'm not talking about them not working. I'm talking about not producing them due to high costs. Heres just one example of anti venins not being produced anymore due to associated high costs:

The bite of a coral snake may soon become increasingly more dangerous, ironically because of the relatively few bites each year. Production of coral snake antivenom in the United States has ceased because it is not profitable. According to Pfizer, the owner of the company that used to make Coralmyn, it would take over $5–$10 million to put toward researching a new synthetic antivenom. The cost was just too large for the small number of cases presented each year. The current antivenom stock expired in 2010, after two consecutive expiration date extensions approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Foreign pharmaceutical manufacturers have produced other coral snake antivenoms, but the costs associated with licensing them in the United States have stalled availability (see above).[7]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/snakebites-about-to-get-more-deadly


I'm sure in 3rd world countries they cant even afford half of these anti venins. And not every antivenin is used for more than one snake. Some are more specific, others are more general. It honestly depends on the company making them. Some are starting to make synthetic ones that don't even require the snake.

A wiki list of some snake antivenins and their associated bites. Its by no means exhaustive, but will show that some are used for 1 snake, others for many: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antivenom#Snakes

Another from the WHO , which says:

If venom from the wrong species is selected, the antivenom produced may not be effective against the effects of bites by snakes in the countries or regions where the product is marketed.

http://www.who.int/bloodproducts/snake_antivenoms/en/

Whether or not this is cheaper is outside of my knowledge, as I am not employed for any of these companies and do not know their cost/profit margins. But I'll tell you this much: anywhere where the costs exceed the profits, things are nixed. Simple capitalism: if the product isn't making $, why keep making it?

And yes its expensive. Perhaps not the extraction in some places, but the entire process is expensive. Plus how much would you charge to handle and extract venom from a black mamba?

FROM THE WHO:

Challenges producing antivenoms
A significant challenge in manufacturing of antivenoms is the preparation of the correct immunogens (snake venoms). At present very few countries produce snake venoms of adequate quality for antivenom manufacture. In addition, lack of regulatory capacity for the control of antivenoms in countries with significant snake bite problems results in an inability to assess the quality and appropriateness of the antivenoms....
Low production of antivenoms
Given low demand, several manufacturers have ceased production, and the price of some antivenoms has dramatically increased in the last 20 years, making treatment unaffordable for the majority of those who need it. Rising prices have further suppressed demand, to the extent that treatment has declined significantly or even disappeared in some areas. The entry into some markets of inappropriate, untested or even fake antivenom products has also undermined confidence in antivenom therapy generally. Antivenom supply failure is imminent in Africa and in some countries in Asia.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs337/en/index.html

 

[kokaino]

Good luck! In Europe you should be able to get cobras easily. There are a number of breeders in Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands. Just search around.

Personally, before getting any cobra I suggest you get a small elapid first. Something like Aspidelaps scutatus (these guys hood just like cobras) or even a mildly venomous colubrid like Boiga dendrophila. Both are available at the site I gave you. Start small and then go big.

 

[kokaino]

I'm not talking about them not working. I'm talking about not producing them due to high costs. Heres just one example of anti venins not being produced anymore due to associated high costs:



http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/snakebites-about-to-get-more-deadly

So yes its expensive. I'm sorry, how much would you charge to handle and extract venom from a black mamba?

Snakes that don't account for a serious number of bites or human fatalities don't need antivenom production to begin with. It's expensive to make antivenom, but acquiring venom is not difficult nor is it expensive. Do you know how many people a coral snake bites a year? Some years not a single person. So yes, making a monovalent antivenom specifically for a coral snake is pointless. More focus and money could be put on making more antivenom for snakes that account for a large number of bites annually - eastern diamondback rattler, western diamondback, mojave, southern pacific, etc. This is in the United States.

In Africa and Asia it's a totally different ball game. Many of the snakes are far, far deadlier than any snake found on the North or South American continents. Antivenom produced in Asia and Africa is always polyvalent. It's expensive, yes. Very expensive. But the snakes themselves are not. Depending on how rare or common the venom is, prices vary.

 

[DooMMooD]

Reread my above post buddy, I had a lot to add and wasn't finished writing it. Coral snake was a single example. The WHO says the exact opposite of what you said. I would love to see what source you read from that says "All african snake antivenins are always polyvalent"

 

[kokaino]

Reread my above post buddy, I had a lot to add and wasn't finished writing it. Coral snake was a single example. The WHO says the exact opposite of what you said. I would love to see what source you read from that says "All african snake antivenins are always polyvalent"

Dude, I collect "hots" and I also order antivenom. I've been dealing with venomous snakes for a long ass time. Check out Latoxan - this is where I get my antivenom from.

For more information about African polyvalent antivenom go here!

CSL polyvalent treats all Australian venomous snakebites (Go here for more info.

In Asia they have this: Antivenom which treats the bites of the "Big Four" snakes responsible for over 90% of snakebites in South Asia, plus it treats similar species and subspecies.

They don't just make monovalent antivenoms. Do you know how expensive and time consuming that would be?

 

[DooMMooD]

Wow I didnt say AT ALL that they ONLY make monovalent ones. I asked to see where "All african antivenins are polyvalent".

I posted a lot of good, well researched, info. Take from it what you will. And I've read your stuff and agree that they can make polyvalent ones.

I'm sure you know TONS about this, I am not debating any of your knowledge personally. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a cost/profit problem with producing this shit. The WHO says in Africa and Asia its becoming harder and harder to afford and treat these things. And the WHO is a pretty reputable organization... I'm not making up any of these claims myself...

Alls I asked was that you reread my post and links to giant pages the WHO posts on the topic. Whether or not you disagree with them is on you. I am not making any arguments aside from those the WHO is making.

But from a totally logical point of view: no one in the poor parts of Africa/Asia can pay for this shit, be it monovalent/polyvalent. They're 3rd world countries for a reason. So why would someone keep producing it?

EDIT: This is kind of all off topic anyway, so its irrelevant. It just seemed, to me, like youre going after me for information others have researched and written/

Going back to the topic of snake venoms being drugs, what is your stance kokaino? Believe it or not I definitely value you your opinion on this topic (and all regarding snakes) considering you have TONS of first hand knowledge. Do you find any of the topic of conversation feasible?

 

[RattleSnake]

well a lot of poisons are psychoactive if dosed properly, so why not venoms? neurotoxins affect the brain by blocking certain chemicals so other chemicals can flow through freely, I can write which chemicals and how but I don't wanna waste my time, the point is drugs do the exact same thing only on other kinds of receptors with other kinds of chemicals, plus there are a lot of reports on the internet about it most of them about the naja naja but there are even some about the rattle snakes, so it's not a myth, people actually take venoms as drugs, all I wanted to know is are they any good... but since no one here has tried it, if anyone stumbles upon a bottle of naja venom send it to me I'll do it and make a trip report xD

 

[DooMMooD]

Firstly, what other "poisons are drugs"? And if you name shrooms I will seriously disregard everything else you say. I guess alcohol could qualify, although considering all the damage alcohol does it kinda proves that thats way worse for you than it is beneficial. I know you dont want to waste your time naming them, but I'd like to see which overlap

A poison acting on certain receptors is very different than a drug acting on them. A poison "causes and leads to injury and death", by definition, whereas a drug is "A substance that has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body, in particular." I guess some can overlap, and this is why opiates could qualify as poisons, huh? Although most drugs I have done aren't inherently poisonous.

Secondly anecdotal reports on the internet aren't exactly fact. A lot of people wrote online about how high jenkem got them, or how rubbing toothpaste on their nipples got them high. And i'm not exactly about to run to the store for a bottle of crest cavity protection.

I guess if you test it out let us know. I for sure wont be the BL guinea pig lol. Just seriously weigh the risks/rewards of the scenario.

 

[RattleSnake]

ok I was not talking about shrooms, mostly plants of Datura family... don't do those trust me on that... well not actually as there is a chem in your brain that stops the other chem from flowing through the synapse, and neurotoxic venom stops the first chem and allows the second to flow, I didn't use the names of the chem so you could see the resemblance to meth and how it affects the brain... there is also the Belladona plants, if you ever heard of psychoactive honey, bees make it off of the Belladona... I know abut that bull on the net there is a post about smoking black pepper dipped in glue to get high, also smoking melons... I have no idea how one could smoke a melon xD but the hare krishnas used naja venom to hallucinate, and there is a lot on this subject, so it's not the "anarchist cookbook humor"

 

[kokaino]

Wow I didnt say AT ALL that they ONLY make monovalent ones. I asked to see where "All african antivenins are polyvalent".

I posted a lot of good, well researched, info. Take from it what you will. And I've read your stuff and agree that they can make polyvalent ones.

I'm sure you know TONS about this, I am not debating any of your knowledge personally. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a cost/profit problem with producing this shit. The WHO says in Africa and Asia its becoming harder and harder to afford and treat these things. And the WHO is a pretty reputable organization... I'm not making up any of these claims myself...

Alls I asked was that you reread my post and links to giant pages the WHO posts on the topic. Whether or not you disagree with them is on you. I am not making any arguments aside from those the WHO is making.

But from a totally logical point of view: no one in the poor parts of Africa/Asia can pay for this shit, be it monovalent/polyvalent. They're 3rd world countries for a reason. So why would someone keep producing it?

EDIT: This is kind of all off topic anyway, so its irrelevant. It just seemed, to me, like youre going after me for information others have researched and written/

Going back to the topic of snake venoms being drugs, what is your stance kokaino? Believe it or not I definitely value you your opinion on this topic (and all regarding snakes) considering you have TONS of first hand knowledge. Do you find any of the topic of conversation feasible?

Monovalent antivenoms are very rare because antivenom is just too costly to make species specific serums. There are monovalent antivenoms, but that is the exception. Most antivenoms are polyvalent and treat many different type of snakebites. There are many charitable organizations that depend on public funding and donations to make antivenom in both Africa and Asia. Antivenom is essential and polyvalent serums will never ever stop being produced no matter how expensive because they save lives.

Venomous snakes are the deadliest animals on earth - they cause more human fatalities worldwide than any other animal on earth. The truth is that most snake species come with a low mortality rate, even most cobras average less than 15% mortality rate. So most untreated cases of snakebite are usually nonfatal.

The real deadly venomous snakes of the world are the black mamba, the coastal taipan, many-banded krait, eastern brown snake, and and the green mambas. An untreated black mamba bite carries a mortality rate of 100%, the coastal taipan carries a rate upwards of 95%. Another deadly snake is the many-banded krait, which also carries a mortality rate of 85% (and antivenom doesn't always work for this species). Another one is the eastern brown snake. These are the snakes that you really wouldn't want to be bit by.

As far as snake venoms being drugs - well in India teenagers use juvenile cobra venom to achieve feelings of sedation and euphoria. This was reported by Katshu, Mohammad Zia Ul Haq , Dubey, Indu , Khess, C. R. J. and Sarkhel, Sujit in 'Snake Bite as a Novel Form of Substance Abuse: Personality Profiles and Cultural Perspectives'.

However, snake venom components are always being researched for the production of novel painkillers, muscle relaxants, anti-cancer drugs, and all sorts of other drugs. There is a lot of potential in the research of snake venom.