NDEs (Near Death Experiences)

[Jabberwocky]

I've been fascinated with NDEs for awhile now. While I don't think it's unusual for people to hallucinate after suffering extreme trauma in the death process, I think it's very peculiar that nearly all of the people who report NDEs all of their experiences are nearly the same and follow the same general process.

They generally follow this order:

- A realization of death
- Out of body experience, floating above yourself looking down at the scene
- A tunnel of light, a feeling of ascending
- Arrival at another place, "the source" / "god's realm"
- Extreme euphoria and acceptance of death, excitement, love, meeting family members
- A voice/entity then tells you "It's not your time"
- Traveling back down the tunnel
- A feeling of rejoining your body, being pulled back down, then waking up

Really fascinating stuff.

What do you guys think NDEs are? I'm not part of the camp that suggests endogenous DMT is released which can account for such hallucinations. Are they even hallucinations at all? Zeitgeist? These experiences do vaguely resemble what a DMT trip is, yet nobody ever reports seeing fractals or anything psychedelic.

NDEs are relatively common, not some fluke.

Also I am specifically referring to people who were technically dead for a period of time, aka heart stopped no pulse, and then were revived. Those are the people reporting these experiences.

A lot of religious types like to grab on to NDEs as an explanation of judgement or heaven, yet there is nothing specifically religious about NDEs.

 

[ControlDaddy]

I have had some NDEs, but of the not medically supervised, withdrawing from alcohol, with OOB experiences lasting more than 36 hours at a time, with arrival at another place, and being pulled back, kind. My heart may not have stopped at all, then again it may well have. That may not be what you are interested in hearing about here. Those were ascents into darkness and null and void, not in any way inhabited by light or voices.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I have had some NDEs, but of the not medically supervised, withdrawing from alcohol, with OOB experiences lasting more than 36 hours at a time, with arrival at another place, and being pulled back, kind. My heart may not have stopped at all, then again it may well have. That may not be what you are interested in hearing about here. Those were ascents into darkness and null and void, not in any way inhabited by light or voices.

Well maybe, did you experience all the stuff I listed? tunnel of light, etc?

Usually it's sudden traumatic stuff like gunshots, hit by a bus, etc, and their heart stops for a few minutes or something. At least in most of the stuff I've read about.

 

[ControlDaddy]

Well maybe, did you experience all the stuff I listed? tunnel of light, etc?

Usually it's sudden traumatic stuff like gunshots, hit by a bus, etc, and their heart stops for a few minutes or something. At least in most of the stuff I've read about.

As I said, everything but the light and voices. Both of those were disturbingly, entirely absent in my experience. The sense I get from all of them, is they are some kind of Limbo planes, or some kind of Eternal Hells. The infiniteness and repetitiveness are overwhelmingly the most frightening thing about them. So much so, that after researching Purgatory, I am sure it is not that mythical place of of suffering, as it gives the opposite sense from temporary.

 

[MsDiz]

There’s a series on Netflix you might like. They have an episode dedicated to NDEs. It’s called “Surviving Death”.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

acutally it was proven by the latest study in 2019 that is caused by DMT. Massive amounts of DMT are released under extreme stress of near death episodes in rats.

 

[Jabberwocky]

There’s a series on Netflix you might like. They have an episode dedicated to NDEs. It’s called “Surviving Death”.

I'm definitely going to watch this, very interesting, although it starts to dive into areas of paranormal I'm not trying to look at yet.

I want to know on the most basic scientific sense what these people are experiencing from a scientific, not speculative, viewpoint.

Afterlife, ghosts, God, reincarnation etc be damned... what is physically happening in the brain at the moment of traumatic/sudden death? That's what I want to know, or at least the starting point.

 

[Jabberwocky]

acutally it was proven by the latest study in 2019 that is caused by DMT. Massive amounts of DMT are released under extreme stress of near death episodes in rats.

...link?

I do not necessarily believe this, although it is in the realm of possibility. It's too convenient and does not explain why people report these amazing experience yet NEVER describe them as "psychedelic", of which DMT is overwhelmingly.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Personally I think it's likely related to biology.

Cell death is a cascading reaction. When one part of the body starts to die it sends chemical signals to all the other cells that it's time to die. Our DNA knows what death is.

I believe NDE's are a natural biological reaction to death. A cascading chemical signal.

Are they MORE than that? It's fun to speculate.

 

[MsDiz]

I'm definitely going to watch this, very interesting, although it starts to dive into areas of paranormal I'm not trying to look at yet.

I want to know on the most basic scientific sense what these people are experiencing from a scientific, not speculative, viewpoint.

Afterlife, ghosts, God, reincarnation etc be damned... what is physically happening in the brain at the moment of traumatic/sudden death? That's what I want to know, or at least the starting point.

It does go into what might be happening in the brain. The episode about NDEs is good.

 

[Foreigner]

The NDE state is one of the final sheaths of mind-body consciousness that is released as the body dies. It seems remarkable because consciousness is separated from the body, but it's really only material reductionism that finds this remarkable. In most wisdom traditions that deal with death teachings, the NDE state is an opportunity to do further work to prepare the consciousness for dissolution, or "crossing over" as some might put it. We don't get hooked on the NDE or OBE experience, it's simply another phenomenon that arises as layers of object-oriented consciousness are reconfiguring. Unfortunately, because western culture has been sterilized of this knowledge, people obsessively write books and make mystical documentaries exploring what it means. We are so divorced from the ethnosphere of this planet that we can't see the trees for the woods.

Tibetan Buddhism refers to this as the pre-Bardo state. The consciousness has left the body but it is still identifying with the mind-body experience, just not as tightly. Then as distance grows, more ethereal states set in that do not appear as ordinary objects (like being in the room you died in). However, even the non-ordinary states are still objects, and they eventually dissolve until only the subtle mind, or pure awareness is left. And the pure awareness is all that was ever there in the first place. Then Buddhism goes off the rails and starts talking about how the subtle mind enters various visionary bardo states and gets sucked into reincarnation -- yeah OK.

I agree that the experience cannot be summed up as DMT driven. I've read those studies and none are peer reviewed. They're also driven by very selective thinkers who are pro-psychedelic. Like most regular users they proselytize psychelics as the miraculous explanation for all of the universe's secrets. Plant spirits are indeed wise but they are not omnipotent. Consciousness organizes the activities of the body, which may include biochemical processes like DMT, but DMT is not the root of what's happening. DMT trip reports are not consistent with most NDEs. NDEs are usually very personalized whereas DMT trips are de-personalized, so much so that "hyperspace" visions involve aliens, exotic vistas, and all kinds of unusual content that are driven by the plant spirit's natural reality. A human NDE is personal to humans and does not reflect the same content or format.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Then Buddhism goes off the rails and starts talking about how the subtle mind enters various visionary bardo states and gets sucked into reincarnation -- yeah OK.

I also really love Buddhism, it's my favorite "religion", but even Buddhism has stuff I don't agree with like that.

 

[Foreigner]

I also really love Buddhism, it's my favorite "religion", but even Buddhism has stuff I don't agree with like that.

It's why Buddhism is still a religion and people should not let themselves be convinced otherwise by Buddhists. I lived in a Buddhist monastery for about 18 months and they always preached to newcomers from the public that Buddhism is just an ancient form of psychology. Yeah, to a point. Then you get into karma, reincarnation, and venerating Bodhisattvas on altars in complex ceremonies.

Buddhism is great but ultimately limited, including Zen and whatever else.

 

[Skorpio]

acutally it was proven by the latest study in 2019 that is caused by DMT. Massive amounts of DMT are released under extreme stress of near death episodes in rats.

Please cite... Would be very interesting if true. Always thought the consensus was that dmt is not present in the brain at concentrations high enough to really activate 5ht2a, and that it is likely a trace amine agonist.

I wonder if antipsychotics make ndes less likely then. It would be not impossible (and certainly more ethical than conducting an experiment) to design a survey of NDE sufferers which tabultes which drugs were in their system at the time. If 5ht2a antagonists are under represented, then that would be decent evidence that dmt plays a significant role in the experience.

I personally feel that an NDE is a rather complex phenomenon that is like 50 percent psychological (the knowledge that one is about to die, which provides content for the "trip") and 50 percent physiological, where the brain shutting down drastically alters activity + effects from going into shock depress the level of consciousness. I would be surprised if it could be reduced to a single neurotransmitter, the effects are probably the result of neural circuits being stimulated (from non-specific neurotransmitter release due to calcium influx), and inhibited due to cells ceasing metabolic processes.
Of course I am quite a reductionist, so dont really buy into the spiritual view except for it being an artefact of the human brain/social learnings.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

the brain can also make 5 meo dmt. NDE are quite similar in some ways to 5 meo dmt. infact 5 meo dmt is legit dying for a short time and coming back

Biosynthesis and Extracellular Concentrations of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in Mammalian Brain - Scientific Reports

N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), a psychedelic compound identified endogenously in mammals, is biosynthesized by aromatic-L-amino acid decarboxylase (AADC) and indolethylamine-N-methyltransferase (INMT). Whether DMT is biosynthesized in the mammalian brain is unknown. We investigated brain...

www.nature.com

 

[usual-suspect]

Once I did an stupid thing by chewing a piece of a phentanyl patch, after roughly calculating the dose, with no previous opiate experience

Sweating, itchy, euphoric, tired and fucked up went to bed and tried to rest.

Relaxed and started to kind of sleep and feel good, in the dark bedroom until the blackness started to turn into void, nothing, just darker and darker and started to feel cold and incredibly alone. A thought came to to be either dreaming or about to OD or die and I woke up and felt very sick. Stayed in bed, meditating about how much death sucks, until slept again. Next morning I had the worst headache in my life, and puked from empty stomach like 10 times. Since then I have feared any opioid and never tried again. And also kept the idea that there is absolutely nothing after one dies, and all the NDEs related are BS, but it might be just that I was just drugged and wasted, idk. I didn't have the feeling I couldn't breath, neither my heart was stopping or anything

 

[Pickledlemons]

I've died before, all nine yards, not breathing no heart rate for at least 10 minutes maybe longer ( yeah I know it doesnt make sense tell me about it). Anyway you want to know what I remember? fuck all, nothing but black.

 

[Skorpio]

the brain can also make 5 meo dmt. NDE are quite similar in some ways to 5 meo dmt. infact 5 meo dmt is legit dying for a short time and coming back

Biosynthesis and Extracellular Concentrations of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in Mammalian Brain - Scientific Reports

N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), a psychedelic compound identified endogenously in mammals, is biosynthesized by aromatic-L-amino acid decarboxylase (AADC) and indolethylamine-N-methyltransferase (INMT). Whether DMT is biosynthesized in the mammalian brain is unknown. We investigated brain...

www.nature.com

Yeah, that's cool and all but the data really doesn't support that dmt is an agonist for serotonin receptors associated with psychadelia. Baseline dmt was at 1 nm concentration and rose to 2 after cardiac arrest. The ki for dmt at 5ht2a is in the hundreds of nm (see paper below). Psychedelic doses usually end up causing brain levels of ~200-1000 nm of dmt. This is hundreds of times less than produced during cardiac arrest.

It is quite possible that it as acting on trace amine associated receptors or sigma 1.

Ki of dmt

The Serotonin Receptors: Comparing the Binding Affinity of 5 Psychedelics

Looking at the data side by side reveals there is much work to do, and why understanding the entourage effect is essential.

psychedelicreview.com

Blood levels after administration

Dose-Response Study of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine in Humans

Background: To begin applying basic neuropharmacological hypotheses of hallucinogenic drug actions to humans, we generated dose-response data for intravenously administered dimethyltryptamine fumarate's (DMT) neuroendocrine, cardiovascular, autonomic, and subjective effects in a group of...

jamanetwork.com

 

[Foreigner]

I thought buddhism was completly corrupted by the 10th century that some monks said it will never be recovered to its pure form. which i believe in it became another dogma form of control.

Thats why i love Hinduism and its various schools of thought.

I agree. Buddhism got fucked up once it started mixing with local folk religions, like the ones in Tibet.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

I agree. Buddhism got fucked up once it started mixing with local folk religions, like the ones in Tibet.

i found it crazy that some buddhists now practice black magic through south east asia. How far could it fall. I guess thats the problem with all religions though. The first person had a wonderful teaching and message and within decades of them been dead there followers corrupted it all for greed and power