NC bill threatens to criminalize naturopaths, homeopaths, herbalists, midwives.....

[CheapHighMan]

I think we can agree Homeopathy is not real. But some of these "alternative medicines" have some benefit to them. I once went to a doctor and he put me on amino acid supplements instead of prescribing me meds. They worked amazing with almost no side effects which is an example of when alternative medicine works. Want another example? How about all the medicinal uses of marijuana that were never "proven" to work. Alzheimer's disease Lung cancer and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, Breast cancer, HIV/AIDS, Brain cancer, Opioid dependence, Spasticity in multiple sclerosis, insomnia and more.

 

[DJ 303]

must I spell it out?

Is we really entirely incapable of rational thought?

firstly make sure you understand what the meaning of basic vocab and concepts are before you try to refute them.

Medicine
-The science of diagnosing, treating, or preventing disease and other damage to the body or mind.
The branch of this science encompassing treatment by drugs, diet, exercise, and other nonsurgical means.

"alternative medicine"
alternative medicine is any healing practice that does not fall within the realm of conventional accepted scientific medicine or that which has not been shown consistently to be effective. In some instances, it is based on historical or cultural traditions, rather than a scientific (e.g. EVIDENCE-based) basis.

“alternative medicine” is an Alternative to "medicine".

for example, I often take a natural chemical derived from the root of a willow tree. It helps with headaches.
Its called Aspirin!!!!
This is medicine!! we have evidence for it's beneficial properties.

and to draw on your examples cheaphighman
Not only do amino acids help make neurotransmitters -- the chemicals that convey messages in the brain-- they also help produce hormones such as insulin; enzymes that activate bodily functions; and certain types of body fluids. In addition, amino acids are essential for the repair and maintenance of organs, glands, muscles, tendons, ligaments, keratin, skin, hair, and nails.

AND "medical" uses of Marijuana as you so put it, is an oxymoron.
The medical uses of weed are accepted among profesionals who have observed EVIDENCE based on scientific study.
That is why it is possible to get "medical" marihuana!!


Basically Bluelighters, there is no such thing as "alternative" medicine.
If it is observed to work with any evidence whatsoever, then by definition it is medicine.
And PLACEBO doesn't count!


and incidentally, on a more positive and fun note.
I have been working on a track recently over in Non electronic music forum.
It is bang on topic here, and the lyrics are spot on.

I urge anyone with an open mind to give it a listen, i'd be really grateful to know what you think.
Even criticism is welcome as long as it is polite, well-informed, and articulately and rationally thought out.

http://soundcloud.com/bigman-productions/the-storm

go on! give it a listen!

 

[DJ 303]

Anyways, I can only say L-O-Fucking-L to the people who think that criminalizing some of this shit is "supar great!!! yayy!"

But one posters description of "alternative medicine" as "things that havent been proven to work or have been proved not to work" is just laughable.

Acupuncture, for example, has many, many research studies done that prove its effectiveness, over and over. Thats one example. "alternative medicine" is NOT all just bullshit.

your post directly opposes me in a scornful, arrogant, and entirely condescending manner their mate.

But for all your smug jingoistic nonsense, it is only you who looks the fool.

Clearly your mod status was not awarded with regards to your manners or your wisdom.

If you had understood the basic concept here mate you would realise that you entirely contradict yourself, and thus doing, prove me correct.

laugh all you want.
l o fucking l genius.

The very fact that acupuncture has been proved in it's effectiveness, therefore makes it a viable "medical" practise.

Did we not learn science at school or manners from our family?

 

[DJ 303]

it astounds me how many people here find the concept of effective MEDICINE,
that is to say medicine that WORKS,
By works i mean there is some observational based scientific evidence for it,
such a terrible goal to try and strive for!

Are you nuts?

if you contract a disease that could be fatal if not correctly treated, would you rather have medicine that works (that is therefore medicine by definition),
or would you rather go for "alternative medicine" (ie not proven to work) like powdered essence of toenail?

It astounds me that you consider professional medical practise a bad thing!
Many of you American folk seem to argue that your system is occasionallly flawed and therefore "alternative medicine" should be allowed as a result!

if your certified doctors and hospitals don't get it right, despite all their training and the availability of scientifically proven methods and meds, then you would be even keener to get rid of the non-scientific and untrained muppets who further add to the shiteness?

logical surely, no?

 

[Tardvark]

it astounds me how many people here find the concept of effective MEDICINE,
that is to say medicine that WORKS,
By works i mean there is some observational based scientific evidence for it,
such a terrible goal to try and strive for!

Are you nuts?

if you contract a disease that could be fatal if not correctly treated, would you rather have medicine that works (that is therefore medicine by definition),
or would you rather go for "alternative medicine" (ie not proven to work) like powdered essence of toenail?

It astounds me that you consider professional medical practise a bad thing!
Many of you American folk seem to argue that your system is occasionallly flawed and therefore "alternative medicine" should be allowed as a result!

if your certified doctors and hospitals don't get it right, despite all their training and the availability of scientifically proven methods and meds, then you would be even keener to get rid of the non-scientific and untrained muppets who further add to the shiteness?

logical surely, no?

I agree that I would want modern scientifically proven medical care, but I dont think that should be the only choice, what right does the government have to tell people what they can and cannot do to their bodies? This may sound a little harsh and Im sorry if it offends anyone but I think if someone declines modern medical care to seek homeopathic or herbal or any other kind of healing not proven and it fails, its their fault, not the caregiver. But the caregiver/healer/whatever should have to tell them to their face or have a big ass poster in their office saying that their treatment has not been scientifically proven or evaluated by the fda, which is required of any shelf product that is not. "THESE STATEMENTS HAVE NOT BEEN EVALUATED OR APPROVED BY THE FDA" and if you still go for it its on you.

 

[DJ 303]

yes mate, you do have a point there.

But however, do you not think that the terms "alternative medicine" or "complementary remedies" constitute a misleading and falsifying image, by their use of scientific psuedonym?

You note the need for a disclaimer, but in practise, how realistic is that?
Do you really think these business owners will fully and comprehensively tell their customers that, in essence, their product or service is entirely in the realm of fantasy?? i think not!

I agree that if an individual who is a foreword thinking and mature adult, suffering from some kind of ailment, has tried other things and found them ineffective, wishes to then try these other forms of untested and non-evidential forms of "treatment" then they are free to do so.

On the other hand though, the very nature of the terminology, the false use of scientific euphamism, the unfounded claims of their value, and the way that the individuals who practise them, more often than not, adorn some sort of false imitation of medical professionalism seems to me to constitute a misleading misrepresentation of their true nature. This is false claim and therefore surely misleading, and thus mitigates "unfair and deceptive acts or practices in commerce." - Directly flouting the law for accurate business practise.

AN individual who is perhaps not so fortunate to be born wise, or perhaps are not in full control of their cognitive rationality, or perhaps suffering from some kind of mental dysnfunction, would therefore be taken advantage of in these cases.

If through deceptively claiming validity, and failing to state the truth behind their entirely non evidential forms of conspicuous treatment, they fool people (as many do) who need genuine medical attention, then surely they could in some circumstances fail to treat or to recognise a problematic condition, then this may cause harm or even death.

Often people who seek these "alternative treatments" may be suffering from symptoms of which the cause is unknown. Surely in these circumstances they need a genuinely qualified professional to form a diagnosis and suggest a valid course of treatment.

If theres anything worse than a lack of information, its false information, and many of these psuedo-medics make entirely incorrect conclusions about a persons affliction. Surely this just isn't on??? it's not always a question of freedom! And those that may suffer, are those who are already suffering, and thus desperate for a cure, wanting to belief the false claims and willing to pay their money for a cure that isn't delivered.

The nature of many of these unscientific practises, mean that actually they don't want to cure the sick! they want regular customers vulnerable enough to keep coming back for more, as they rely on repeat visits in order to maintain their business!
I'm sorry but thats just fucked.
And if anything it is more detrimental to the values of human rights than the freedom of choice.

when it comes to the elderly, the infirm, the physically or mentally sick, surely people, surely, it is just fucking sick not to offer them the best treatment and care that we have evidence to support?

it makes me mad, even if this doesn't really go on in England at all.

 

[qwe]

No-one should be practising "alternative medicine"

bluelight is about allowing people to safely practice "alternative medicines".

 

[...]

Where can I find the DRUGS IN THE MEDIA forum?

 

[Khadijah]

your post directly opposes me in a scornful, arrogant, and entirely condescending manner their mate.

But for all your smug jingoistic nonsense, it is only you who looks the fool.

Clearly your mod status was not awarded with regards to your manners or your wisdom.

If you had understood the basic concept here mate you would realise that you entirely contradict yourself, and thus doing, prove me correct.

laugh all you want.
l o fucking l genius.

The very fact that acupuncture has been proved in it's effectiveness, therefore makes it a viable "medical" practise.

Did we not learn science at school or manners from our family?

You made a blanket, generalized statement about "alternative medicine."

Whether or not YOU believe that things like acupuncture BELONG in that category or not, the fact is that acupuncture is considered to be alternative medicine by just about anybody you ask in america, which is the country we are talking about in this thread.

Using that definition of alternative medicine, which is the standard, generally understood definition, acupuncture falls under the category of "alternative medicine."

Now, if you apply the statement that "alternative medicine is only things that either are not proved to work, or are proved to not work" to acupuncture, it would be wrong. Thats wat I THOUGHT you were saying when you said that alternative medicine is garbage, because here, acupuncture is considered alternative medicine.

basicaly, This is a simple misunderstanding. You are assuming that everybody uses YOUR personally created definition of alternative medicine, meaning 'anything that has no evidence of effectiveness, or is proved to be totally ineffective" which would mean that things like midwifery, acupuncture, chiropractors, and so on, are NOT alternative. But here, alternative simply means "not done by an MD", basically, so all those things ARE 'alternative'. We got 2 very different meanings of alternative medicine here, which caused the confusion.

Like I said, your definition aint the definition Im using. I am using the standard, generally recognized definition of alternative medicine, which is "any medicine not practiced by MD's, not licensed by a federally recognized group, that one does not need to attend medical school to practice."

YOU believe that anything that "works" should not be considered "alternative" because it works.

In america, that aint how it goes. Here, things that DO work, but are not licensed by the FDA or any type of standardized board of approval, and are not directly in line with the standard, traditional MD-style medicine, are considered "alternative medicine."

Your entire problem with my post comes from your uncommon defition of wat alternative medicine really is. It has nothing to do with me bein "smug" or any of the other shit youre saying, and everything to do with a misunderstanding of the term alternative medicine. You made up your own definition of it, based on wat you believe is fair. And I agree--I DONT think that things that do work, that have evidence of them working, should be considered "alternative". But , unfortunately, they are.

You are gettin all worked up over nothing. Like i said, its a misunderstanding of the term alternative medicine. To sum it up for you: Under your definition, acupuncture and other proven methods, are not included as alternative. Under the definition everybody else uses, they are. Your negative statement about alternative medicine includes acupuncture if we assume you are using the standard definition of it. It does not include acupuncture if we use the "DJ 303's personal definition" of alternative medicine.

The misunderstanding comes from your assumption that everyboy else uses your personal definition of alternative medicine. You assume that I just KNEW that you dont consider acupuncture to fall into that category, but theres no way I would know that, since in America, to the majority of people, it does.

I agree with your thoughts that things that do work, sholdnt be considered alternative, but becuz of the way things work here with the FDA and all that, tons of shit that works is considered alternative and dismissed as crap. So, while you might feel like alternative should ONLY be a word for "shit that dont work", that aint the case here, and thats the reason for this entire discussion between you and me.

 

[qwe]

if you contract a disease that could be fatal if not correctly treated, would you rather have medicine that works (that is therefore medicine by definition),
or would you rather go for "alternative medicine" (ie not proven to work) like powdered essence of toenail?

here's why: there are often economic motives for accepting or denying particular drugs. like the drug that blew up the news when, after accepted by the DEA, went from 10 to 1500$ per dose.

there are also philosophical, cultural, moral, ethical, spiritual, religious, and other boundaries... different groups of people practice medicine differently. personally, i'd love to have all of my medicine proven empirically. but that's not possible given the DEA and its bullshit.

note: i'm not supporting, in any way, homeopathy etc. sometimes certain things do appear outside the bounds of reason, sure. but we should have the right to make that mistake with our bodies, right? these are our bodies, and we should be able to think/choose for ourselves.

 

[phr]

---> hl

 

[DJ 303]

You made a blanket, generalized statement about "alternative medicine."

Whether or not YOU believe that things like acupuncture BELONG in that category or not, the fact is that acupuncture is considered to be alternative medicine by just about anybody you ask in america, which is the country we are talking about in this thread.

Using that definition of alternative medicine, which is the standard, generally understood definition, acupuncture falls under the category of "alternative medicine."

Now, if you apply the statement that "alternative medicine is only things that either are not proved to work, or are proved to not work" to acupuncture, it would be wrong. Thats wat I THOUGHT you were saying when you said that alternative medicine is garbage, because here, acupuncture is considered alternative medicine.

basicaly, This is a simple misunderstanding. You are assuming that everybody uses YOUR personally created definition of alternative medicine, meaning 'anything that has no evidence of effectiveness, or is proved to be totally ineffective" which would mean that things like midwifery, acupuncture, chiropractors, and so on, are NOT alternative. But here, alternative simply means "not done by an MD", basically, so all those things ARE 'alternative'. We got 2 very different meanings of alternative medicine here, which caused the confusion.

Like I said, your definition aint the definition Im using. I am using the standard, generally recognized definition of alternative medicine, which is "any medicine not practiced by MD's, not licensed by a federally recognized group, that one does not need to attend medical school to practice."

YOU believe that anything that "works" should not be considered "alternative" because it works.

In america, that aint how it goes. Here, things that DO work, but are not licensed by the FDA or any type of standardized board of approval, and are not directly in line with the standard, traditional MD-style medicine, are considered "alternative medicine."

Your entire problem with my post comes from your uncommon defition of wat alternative medicine really is. It has nothing to do with me bein "smug" or any of the other shit youre saying, and everything to do with a misunderstanding of the term alternative medicine. You made up your own definition of it, based on wat you believe is fair. And I agree--I DONT think that things that do work, that have evidence of them working, should be considered "alternative". But , unfortunately, they are.

You are gettin all worked up over nothing. Like i said, its a misunderstanding of the term alternative medicine. To sum it up for you: Under your definition, acupuncture and other proven methods, are not included as alternative. Under the definition everybody else uses, they are. Your negative statement about alternative medicine includes acupuncture if we assume you are using the standard definition of it. It does not include acupuncture if we use the "DJ 303's personal definition" of alternative medicine.

The misunderstanding comes from your assumption that everyboy else uses your personal definition of alternative medicine. You assume that I just KNEW that you dont consider acupuncture to fall into that category, but theres no way I would know that, since in America, to the majority of people, it does.

I agree with your thoughts that things that do work, sholdnt be considered alternative, but becuz of the way things work here with the FDA and all that, tons of shit that works is considered alternative and dismissed as crap. So, while you might feel like alternative should ONLY be a word for "shit that dont work", that aint the case here, and thats the reason for this entire discussion between you and me.

morning mate.
apologies for unecessary rudeness and aggression yesterday.
i'd been out supporting Sasha and DJing here in Osaka Japan,
I was online, coming down from the mountains of Ching flying around the V.I.P room, and I was a bit tetchy.
not an acceptable excuse you may say, but nonetheless
Im sorry i took it out on you,
It is an old dogma of BL that we should attack ideas not people, and I should've stuck to that.

Ultimately this is a misunderstanding yes.
It is a difference of opinion, reference, and culture.

And I was bang out of order.

However I will say this if I may sir,

the tone of your posting is occasionally rather confrontational, unecessarily personal, and a little condescending. though I was entirely guilty of this yesterday and I offer you a virtual pint as a peace offering.

We ought to strive for respect, accuracy, wisdom and fair-mindedness with regards to the individual if we want BL to be an informative and pleasant place to be. Though of course the nature of the concept is open to freedom of expression in all it's colourful diversity.

Do please accept my apology, thought at the same time understand that I am not an illogical and ignorant man, who has launched an attack made-up of his own selfish and subjective definition of this topic.

You fail to give me credit and doubt my integrity here.
I am in fact well read and versed upon this topic, and am an officially published writer and journalist, with articles and essays that appear in one particular academically accredited university Journal.

i think it's clear here that there are obviously some rather glaring differences, between America and the U.K. Not only with regards to public opinion, but also with regards to education, politics, law, welfare and medical services.

You are entirely right when you said the OP is actually about America, and therefore I should have been sensitive to that, found out more about the system and been careful to explain exactly where my opinion lies, and to specify my sources and reasons. I understand how due to the nature of your system, there are different factors to take into account, as actually you are paying for either the service of one business or another, few of which will have the patients best interest at heart. that sucks! i pity you guys!

Accepted definitions and terminology appear to be quite different in some key areas, and thus i see the nature of our misunderstanding. My uncle for example is a very well-reputed General Practioner, public speaker, and acupuncturist working for our National Health Service and practises in London's top hospital and research department. He is not considered a practitioner of alternative medicine, but trained in effective supplementary medicine.

actually there are disputes and discepancies all over the place here. It seems that the American system accepts non-evidential, or repeatedly disproved techniques as alternative medicines, AS WELLl as those that are merely unconventional, like acupuncture.

the British medical Association doesn't though. They say that as soon as technique is tried tested and accepted it becomes medicine. the definition of alternative medicine being "all treatments that have not been proven effective using scientific methods."

ANyway fuck it mate, i can't be bothered with this topic anymore, because ironically enough, we are actually entirely in agreement with each other when it comes to what we believe to be valid, valuable and acceptable in medical practise.

I wholeheartedly believe that new and fresh, or unconventional forms of treatment should be perfectly avaialble and widely used, just so long as their is evidence to substantiate their worth.

SHall we just agree that we misunderstood one another's viewpoint and background here, couldve been politer and more accommodating/respectful and just be excellent to each other instead?

Once again.
sorry for being a bugger.

have a lovely day, and lets hope we don't need any medical attention in the near future.

peace

 

[Apostacious]

Herbalists can be quite knowledgeable in their field, maybe not to the extent of a pharmacist, but it is possible that they can offer better and potentially safer treatments than an MD that at times, is being paid bonuses to push certain new, and under-researched pharmaceuticals. Meanwhile, herbalists work with plants that have been consumed by humans for years, so there is more understanding of long-term effects.

I think it is disrespectful and ignorant to claim that alternative medicine doesn't work. It certainly should not be a first line of defense choice, yet, it should never be discounted, because generally, treating oneself with herbs tends to create far less side-effects and physical dependencies than pharmaceuticals. Additionally, the workload that a physician must bear is quite overwhelming, so there is a greater propensity for error, neglect and obfuscation to occur during a patient's treatment. However, Western medicine is still very efficient in precision treatment, and it commands an almost complete understanding of the processes existing in the human body. Yet, it's great expense, and relatively high probability for fatal errors to occur (due to the invasiveness of some treatments), gives "alternative medicine" a valid right to exist as an alternative treatment.

 

[poopie]

I see no problem with criminalizing an unlicensed mid-wife, etc. when these professionals *should* be licensed. An MD cannot let their license lapse and the alternative practices need regulation.

Like Kenickie clarified, this bill seems more like a tightening up of "quacks". A licensed acupuncturist can (and should) still practice, but someone who took an 8 hour online course?! Hell no!

Licensing exists for many different alternative medicines, and if people are placing their well-being/health/lives in the hands of these people, I believe regulation should be enforced.

Also, I believe in an earlier post, the poster was only saying that due to this, the incidence of home birth will be affected, but it was not being vilified (that's how I interpreted it).

Also, I don't think BL is about practicing alternative medicines. I came here to learn about getting fucked up, then stayed around to figure out how to do it in a less damaging way. This, for me, was all about recreation.

 

[TheAppleCore]

...

I can't believe my eyeballs. Bluelighters are actually supporting this shit? Do you not see that this is just another instance of the government being bribed to pass a law that funnels money into the pockets of its beneficiaries? That this is just a result of pressure from those in the business of qualified medicine lobbying for reduced competition?

Even if we entertain, for just a moment, that the government is actually looking out for us, and acting in what they believe to be our best interest -- we have absolutely fuck all reason to trust THEIR judgment on what IS and IS NOT "real" medicine.

Bluelighters should be the first to get this. Recreational drugs ARE alternative medicine. There is no science to support your decision to go to a rave and drop molly. Does that mean it's a waste of time, period, end of story? Does that give the government the right to persecute whomever sold you the drugs? qwe said it best:

bluelight is about allowing people to safely practice "alternative medicines".

How about, let the free market decide who practices medicine? Wherein, medicine is practiced because the patient freely chooses to fund it? And the patient decides on services based on his or her own beliefs?

 

[slimvictor]

Homeopathy should be banned. It's absolute fucking nonscientific nonsense. Aromatherapy seems less problematic, but I'm really not sure what's entailed in naturopathy and herbalism. Herbalism could probably be a really great practice, but I fear it's rooted in nonsense symbolism.

Is this really to ban these things or to ban retarded religious treatments? I know something like this has been proposed in many states after someone in my state decided to cure their diabetic child with prayer...

(I like to argue with Hammilton, because s/he is clearly well educated and intelligent, so here goes...)

Hard for me to agree with you on several points.

First, what is "less problematic" about aromatherapy?
Neither it nor homeopathy has been proven to work in carefully controlled, double-blind trials, to my knowledge.
Assuming I am correct, what is the difference?

As far as banning homeopathy, I also don't agree (despite my previous statement that it has never been proven to be effective).
Scientific evidence supporting a form of therapy is good. We can all agree on that, I think.
But if there is no evidence, does that mean we should ban it?
I would argue that it doesn't.
There is another form of evidence, based on personal experience, that you do not respect (here, or elsewhere, as far as I have seen your posts).
If I try some homeopathic medicine and feel that it works for me, I honestly don't give two shits about whether "the experts" say that it should be working or not.
It is entirely possible - certain, actually - that some medicines may work wonders for a small portion of the population, and be less effective or totally ineffective on other people.
Biochemical individuality is the way of things.
In thinking about medicine from a Western perspective, this is ignored, purposely.
Researchers understand that they are sweeping the dust under the rug, but their job, as they see it, is to find out what works for the majority of humans (especially the majority of white males, up until today, though this is slowly changing).
By ignoring diversity and focusing on what is common, they can do their job as quickly and effectively as possible.
But diversity is the way we are.
Homogeneity is a convenient simplification that is adopted for a purpose, but if we forget that it is a myth, it can become extremely harmful.
Every medical school student sees that it is a myth when the actually open up a cadaver and realize that this person's heart is not on the left side of their chest at all, but smack in the middle, for example. But the convenience of the myth, and the fact that essentially all modern medicine is based on it, encourages them to quickly ignore this crack in the myth's armor.

What if a treatment is shown, through solid evidence, to work less often than placebo? Should it be banned?
What if that treatment works wonders for me, with my particular individual biochemical makeup? Should I be prevented from using it? Seems like a really lame idea.

Sounds like you want a dictatorial medicine that is focused on saving the maximum number of lives at the expense of the people at the ends of the bell curve, and does not trust people or permit them to have any real say in their own health.

I, on the other hand, want freedom.

The cost of your way is deep. My friend, an Asian-American, was anesthetized with a medicine commonly used in the U.S. when he had a collapsed lung. The doctor had no idea that people of Asian descent often have problems with said medicine, and my friend nearly died.

The cost of my way is deep. Ignorant people will pray to God to save their child instead of giving medicine that might save his/her life.

But my way is the way of freedom, and yours is not.

 

[thujone]

SB 31 states that anyone who practices medicine or surgery without having been first "licensed and registered to do so" will be guilty of a Class I felony. Class I felonies in NC are the least severe kinds of felonies, but they do include things like burning crosses on private or public property, and sexually exploiting children. So if passed, SB 31 will essentially make those who practice alternative medicine without an official, state-sanctioned license and permit, criminals of the likes of sexual predators and cross burners.

Oh look, an easy money grab. Why don't they just charge the dope dealer a tax and let him carry on his "practice"? All the hard work demonizing that has already been done by the federal government.

 

[Hammilton]

Why should people be allowed to provide services which are scientifically proven not to work? Why should the patient be blamed because they fell for that nonsense?

Too much is allowed in the name of freedom. An idiot wants to take watered down poison as medicine so they should have a pseudoprofessional to see? Fuck no. If they want to do stupid shit they should be doing it in their own homes without anyone supporting that fucking nonsense. People who support (and worse, believe) nonsense because their friends or family buy into it are morons who fail to think for themselves and only assist idiots in idiocy.

idiot codependents..

 

[slimvictor]

^ My understanding is this: They are not scientifically proven not to work.
It is not possible to disprove a hypothesis in science. One can only fail to find support for a hypothesis.
In all studies of homeopathy that I have seen, the hypothesis that the treatment was effective failed to find support. But that is quite different from saying that it was proven not to work.

People should have to do stupid things in their own homes, without seeing someone who is an expert in that modality? I can't understand why. If they want to pay for it, it is perfectly fine with me.
You argue that certain people are idiots. I don't necessarily disagree. But should the law forbid them from pursuing what they believe in? The law forbids us from pursuing happiness, enlightenment, or escape through (most) drugs. Is that fair? Seems like the same type of thing to me.
You also didn't respond to my point that certain medicines (or treatments) might only work for a small percentage of people - maybe only 1%, which is far, far less than placebo - but that 1% still deserve the get access to that treatment.

 

[Wizzle]

lol

doulas are pretty much non-existent anyways, in the US at least, where what less than 1% are home births and over 25% ends with a C-section.

now if you want a home birth in NC you better help yourself or else, who ever helps you will be a felon. Hospital or in the woods alone.

alternative medicine I don't care much about

just wonder how much home birthing will be affected

but I really don't know enough about it...just watched the movie about home vs hospital births

In the Netherlands there is a debate going on about the merits of home birth.. We used to be all righteous about having a lot of home births and a low incidence of neonate death to go along with it. According to new research we are sub-par compared to other western nations and shit has hit the fan..


Regardless.. We shouldn't underestimate placebo. Maybe homeopathy does work because of it.. I just did a little research on treatment of neuropathic pain and the effectiveness of placebo is staggering.