Narcotics Anonymous

[Fight Club]

Could I do a bag of dope and not do it tomorrow? Yes.

Would I? NO. It would be a silly decision. That shit caused me enough pain...

I guess this is basically how I feel at this point as well. I do consider myself an addict; I still deal with working to control obsessive / compulsive behavior on a daily basis.

I have had a few slips over the past 21 months, and have always gone back to the "program" the next day, realizing how quickly IV cocaine "recharges" my addiction.

At this point in recovery, however, I realize it is less painful to ride out cravings and "itchiness" than to scratch that itch with a big fat shot of coke and start all over again . . .

FC

 

[Pander Bear]

Let me remind you that I was a drug counselor for the most successful rehab in the world.

It teaches that addiction is not a disease, but a choice.

I have a degree in psychology, with cognitive behavioral psych as my specialty.

There is no evidence to suggest that addiction is truly a disease. It has the overall symptoms of a disease, but it is still just a life choice.

Chaos, I like your posts, and I respect your opinions about your recovery, but if you reduce addiction to "a choice", then you must be equally willing to eliminate any illness that responds to CBT. You might be inclined to do that. Personally, I'm more inclined to call maladaptive behaviors diseases because they delineate a person from a bahavior...

You know, like how we say that a person is "afflicted with schizophrenia" or "suffers from bipolar disorder" rather than "is bipolar/schizophrenic."

The label "disease" doesn't correspond to anything objective. Its a social label we use to categorize mental and physical states of being. Therefore, "disease" does suit addiction, because: firstly, we should be treating addicts rather than passing judgement on them, and putting them in prison, and secondly, because having a disease (curable, or otherwise) is a whole lot better for one's psyche than being told that one is "broken" or a bad person.


For what its worth, I've said I'm an addict thousands of times in meetings. It doesn't mean that when I stopped going to meetings (or, more accurately, frequently when I was in meetings) from thinking that I was getting better, and believing that I'm no longer addicted. That's where I'm at now: its been years since my last meeting, and while I don't identify as an addict, I'm mindful enough to recognise that its easy for me to become an addict again, and that I still display addictive tendencies (the same ones I displayed before I had a drug problem.)

and lastly, I'll add that NA, in my experience anyway, was not this monolithic program that made everybody the same. It certainly did give newcomers a framework-- some breathing room, and helped them make good choices in their lives. But after the first few months, I was expected to start thinking critically about recovery. I even have a good friend who's got like...jeez, 28 years clean now who openly scoffs at the idea than anybody is an addict after 18 months of abstinence and personal growth. That's the kind of thing that gets hashed out in world service conferences, and in meetings everywhere, every night.

Rational recovery has always struck me as something I could never do properly. I needed the social network, because I'm a social person. More importantly, I really did need somebody to call me on my bullshit, and to tell me that I was fooling myself when I said "I think I can hang out with this my dealer again" or "I don't think I really need to go to meetings or work a program any more" at the three month mark. RR may work for some people-- even some people who were way worse off than I ever was-- but I seriously doubt it will work for everyone.

 

[edarrin]

I was totally sober for several years, and now I easily moderate alcohol and psychedelics. I don't use heroin anymore, and have only done a few bumps of coke since I picked up drinking again. I don't have any desire to do it.

Well as addict who was sober 100% for 12 years I'd like to hear what you have to say 5 years from now. I hope it's good things but I'd sincerely be interested.

As mentioned, I was sober for 12 years. Got my life back together. Went back to school, graduated and got a good job. Got married, started a family. Seems like everything was going great. I attended AA for 5 years and then stopped when i moved and didn't know anyone and I was working and had completely changed my life. All my friends, local ,vocation the whole thing. Figured I didn't need it anymore. My thing was aclcohol and cocaine then.

I also got into working out big time after a couple of years sobriety because I liked the 'stress reduction' effect it had (endorphin release). that worked great for a while until I realized no matter how hard I trained I would never look like Arnie. So I started juicing because 'it wasn't a recreational drug' which made it 'OK'. Also made me manic so I started using benzos to sleep. Then I got injured and started onto opiates. Now I was getting it all from medical sources so it took me quite a while to admit to myself I was addicted again. Now I'm back addicted again but now have a family and need to go to work regardless of how shitty I feel for the most part. I have never touched alcohol since Dec10,1991. Have done coke here and there after I strarted using again.

My point in that long winded thing was that I believe that once an addict always an addict. It sneeks up on you. I think it is partly a natural endogenous (born with) gene (s) or something that just doesn't produce properly. Also needs to be activated. Some research know shows that alcohol acts on some of the opiate recepters in the brain which may partially explain why I took right to them. But I really thought I had it together for a long time after even after I didn't.

I've meet far too many addicts to think otherwise. Not to say that there isn't some people who experience things differently, I suppose. just my experience.

And I got sober in AA.

That's probably where I'll end up again in time.

 

[Fight Club]

Just a thanks to everyone posting in this thread. I have been in (true) recovery for 21 months, and I recognize and identify with bits and pieces of the contours of my own behavior in nearly everyone's posts.

It is very empowering to both validate and critique my own views on this topic.

FC

 

[Chaos23]

I support anything people do to try and better themselves. I may be very passionate about my beliefs, and that certainly comes through in many of my posts on this subject...

If you have tried alternate type rehabilitation and find it doesn't work for you, but for some reason the AA or NA methodology does, then GO FOR IT!

I have a lot of experience with NA / AA, and with choice theory. For me, and statistically for most people, 12 step methodology actually decreases the chances a person has of being successful in overcoming a difficult addiction in their lives.

There is really so much more involved in making the decision than just flipping a switch and being 100% different. I hope people are not misunderstanding what I have been saying.

I am making the assertion that through HARD work and perseverance one can completely overcome addiction. I am aware this differs greatly from the view of many on this forum. I am not here to argue and play some semantics game. I know what has worked for me, and for the majority of my former students. I have done countless hours of research, as well as spent many years of my life at the 'bottom of the barrel'... I am simply sharing what I discovered, not only for myself, but for the majority of 'addicts'.

People are always susceptible to becoming an addict. Certainly those who have a history with such things tend to have a higher rate of repeating them. This is not due to the fallacy that 'once and addict always an addict', or due to some imaginary disease. This is because the human mind becomes accustomed to thinking in specific patterns. Once a person has trained their mind to think like that, they will certainly be more likely to repeat the process than a person who has not ever been addicted.

I am not arguing this point. I am stating that people can change. People can shatter their current paradigm and move forward in life without living like an addict. People must remain vigilant and not forget why they quit abusing substances. (hence, why I don't use heroin anymore)

Whatever works for individuals, I support. I do wish everyone the best, and I sincerely hope that those who feel they need help will get it. Sorry if I ruffled some feathers in here. I just feel so strongly about this that I couldn't sit back and not mention it.

I wish you all the best of luck.

 

[MzAnthroP]

my experience with 12 steps

Truth be told, my experience with 12-step programs is that everyone has a different opinion on every facet of the program. Some are very self-righteous and seem eager to forget who they were before they cleaned up.

My own opinion is that my life on heroin was miserable. To relieve myself of the misery I was completely open to suggestion, which is how I think everyone has to be in order to achieve any kind of lasting sobriety.

Before kicking I had achieved a certain kind of spirituality, drawing on Tibetan Buddhist ideaology mostly and an ego that crumbled a bit more every time I tried unsuccessfully to kick. For this reason it wasn't so difficult for me to find what they refer to as a higher power.

I have and will continue to favor AA, mostly because I think it is a lot more simplified than NA is, and I find the people more likable in general.

I knew very well I was powerless over heroin. I could not turn it down if you put it in front of me. Perhaps this was a matter of choice, but to me at the end the choice was not really there. I could NEVER turn it down. I am still not completely certain that I could turn it down if you offered it to me. I have turned down drinks, pills, and cocaine, but for me heroin is a completely different ballgame.

It made my life unmanageable, I saw a steady decline in the quality of my life and knew that if I were to continue to use things would never get better, only worse.

So far as the higher power thing, my logic is that if heroin has power over me, than I would need something even more powerful to help me to fight it. And to me the things I did while using heroin were nothing short of insane.

Turning my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand him?

The analogy that is used in the 'big book' is that an alcoholic is an actor in a play. He does not want to believe he is merely an actor, however, but the director. He wants to control all the characters, not just his own. He wants the play to be enacted exactly as he sees fit, and when things don't work out the way he wants, he lives in distress.

That was easier for me to understand. It began to make sense to me, as well. Truth is, I'm not certain that there is a 'God' and I don't want to get into that really. Suffice to say, I'm definitely NOT directing this play, much as I would like that. All I can do is be the best character I can be.

The next few steps pretty much force you to come to terms with all the negativity your addiction has created in your life and everyone else's, and gives you a way to deal with it, to relieve your conscience of the weight of your wrongs.

Finally the last of the steps provide you with a way to stop any more baggage from cropping up, how to deal with it if it does, and lastly a way to increase your sense of self-worth by spreading the message and helping others.

These programs definitely don't work for everybody but I don't think I would have lasted this long if it weren't for AA.

 

[MDPVagrant]

Although I am also one to believe that things in the world happen the way they do for some 'reason'.... I still think it is totally irresponsible to consider your fate sealed because of determinism.

Of course -- any strong believer in "free will" would think so. But if determinism was factual, responsibility or irresponsibility never enters the picture. One does what one must.

One can accept their fate, or one can do whatever they can to change the current status of their life.

Sure, they can do the latter -- if that is their fate . I'm not strictly a determinist myself, as I believe that ultimately everything is random and there are no true causes (neither free will nor 'external' conditions). Sure, people can act to change things -- if it happens that they do so. Things just happen, including the desire to exercise free will.

P.S. thanks for sharing your POV... I for one do not object. It's as valid as anyone else's. IMO the weakest point of your argument is the assertion that what works for you should work for everyone, or at least most people. You would get alot further in my opinion if you stuck religiously to "this works for me, YMMV." You've said it, just not nearly often enough.

The analogy that is used in the 'big book' is that an alcoholic is an actor in a play. He does not want to believe he is merely an actor, however, but the director. He wants to control all the characters, not just his own. He wants the play to be enacted exactly as he sees fit, and when things don't work out the way he wants, he lives in distress.

That was easier for me to understand. It began to make sense to me, as well. Truth is, I'm not certain that there is a 'God' and I don't want to get into that really. Suffice to say, I'm definitely NOT directing this play, much as I would like that. All I can do is be the best character I can be.

IMO that is a very (psychologically) healthy and workable way to look at it, abstract philosophical "truths" be damned. NA/AA are very good at offering these sorts of 'working tools' IMO... that is their strong point.

 

[tiger-bunny]

that whole actor in a play thing hit home for me too, i remember reading it with my sponsor before doing my 5th step, things began to make a bunch more sense, especially after going through all the shit i was pissed off about because it didnt go my way. Its funny how I went through life upset because things wernt the way i thought they should be without realizing that i had no real controll over anything except my own actions.

anyways regarless of how people feel about AA/NA i think that actually working the steps with someone who cares and has been through what you have been through can be one of the most positive things to do in ones life, addicted or not. the meetings and shit i can take or leave, to be honest i have gone to 1 meeting in 2 months, but i still am enjoying things and doing my best to stay honest, open minded and willing. I plan on going back when im home for xmas break, but it dosnt really click with me up here like it does back at home. I pray too, to what exactly i have no idea, but it seems to help me get centered and focus on what matters most to me.

I guess the reason AA worked for me when i first got into it is because my life was really fucked up at the time, most of the people in AA seemed to be having a good time, so i wanted what they had.

theres a guy in AA back home that says "every day i wake up is like a fucking present and i cant wait to find out what i got". my first reaction to this kinda talk is hes brainwashed etc, but ive listened to him enough to know its for real, if living a spiritual life/practicing the 12 steps etc gives me even a 1% chance of feeling like that some day, then its worth it to me.

this turned into kinda a ramble, but i just wanted to say that I dont want to do drugs anymore, and i dont think 12 step programs are really the easiest way to stop getting high, but if you are able to cut through all of the bullshit that zealots at meetings say, there is a lot of good stuff to be found in there as well that extends way beyond just "quiting".

 

[beachsidefl321]

The label "disease" doesn't correspond to anything objective. Its a social label we use to categorize mental and physical states of being. Therefore, "disease" does suit addiction, because: firstly, we should be treating addicts rather than passing judgement on them, and putting them in prison, and secondly, because having a disease (curable, or otherwise) is a whole lot better for one's psyche than being told that one is "broken" or a bad person.

"Ultimately, success in remaining clean comes on the neurochemical field, not the spiritual one. It’s easier not to get high when we are as close to getting naturally high as possible. This means becoming engaged in life in a way which stimulates the brain’s reward response as much as possible, which is essentially living a traditionally happy life: having hobbies, friends, success, emotional well being, and health, while avoiding stress, sickness, depression, and other negative factors.

All spiritual theories aside, what we are is essentially an interaction of neurochemistry. What motivates even the most altruistic of actions is ultimately how the chemicals in your brain feel about what you just did, and the introduction of drugs into the equation affects this in a dramatic way. The "healthy" things that most people are disheartened to see removed by an addiction are actually just replaced by a more precise and predictable tool to achieve the end that they provided in the first place: all those little neurotransmitters bouncing happily in your brain. Given that, isn't it logical to say that a smarter person will use a more effective tool?"

Well said people.

that whole actor in a play thing hit home for me too, i remember reading it with my sponsor before doing my 5th step, things began to make a bunch more sense, especially after going through all the shit i was pissed off about because it didnt go my way. Its funny how I went through life upset because things wernt the way i thought they should be without realizing that i had no real controll over anything except my own actions.

anyways regarless of how people feel about AA/NA i think that actually working the steps with someone who cares and has been through what you have been through can be one of the most positive things to do in ones life, addicted or not. the meetings and shit i can take or leave, to be honest i have gone to 1 meeting in 2 months, but i still am enjoying things and doing my best to stay honest, open minded and willing. I plan on going back when im home for xmas break, but it dosnt really click with me up here like it does back at home. I pray too, to what exactly i have no idea, but it seems to help me get centered and focus on what matters most to me.

I guess the reason AA worked for me when i first got into it is because my life was really fucked up at the time, most of the people in AA seemed to be having a good time, so i wanted what they had.

theres a guy in AA back home that says "every day i wake up is like a fucking present and i cant wait to find out what i got". my first reaction to this kinda talk is hes brainwashed etc, but ive listened to him enough to know its for real, if living a spiritual life/practicing the 12 steps etc gives me even a 1% chance of feeling like that some day, then its worth it to me.

this turned into kinda a ramble, but i just wanted to say that I dont want to do drugs anymore, and i dont think 12 step programs are really the easiest way to stop getting high, but if you are able to cut through all of the bullshit that zealots at meetings say, there is a lot of good stuff to be found in there as well that extends way beyond just "quiting".

tiger-bunny i agree with everything you have said here. and this quote, "every day i wake up is like a fucking present and i cant wait to find out what i got" i love. i want to feel like that. and i believe that with hard work, therapy, and completely changing my lifestyle (i already have socially) i can achieve it. im on my way, but as you know it's a slow process which take time and patience.

thanks everyone for contributing to this thread.

 

[devils]

I tried NA and AA. I was in rehab once. I have nothing but bad feelings for any of the twelve step programs. First of all, any program that tells me that I do not have control is not going to work for me. How can anyone get sober if they're told that they have to relinquish control to a nonexistant "higher power"? They tell you that pride is wrong. For me, self-control and personal pride is essential if I want to stop using drugs! These programs say "keep coming back", put pressure on you to keep meticulous attention to how long you've been without substances, (forcing you to constantly think about your addiction, instead of just trying to move on with your life), are VERY quick to judge, discourage people from taking other medications which may be necessary to their sanity and mental health, and if you want to go to meetings sometimes just to talk to other addicts without working "the steps", well, see how long they put up with you then. And don't even get me started on the whole "disease" theory!!! Pure rubbish.

I think a more realistic program would be Rational Recovery. If you're not familiar with it google it. The only problem is that when a court orders you into a treatment program it's always going to involve AA or NA. Personally I think that's a violation of my rights, to force me into a "spiritual" (RELIGIOUS) program when I do not believe in any god. (And I'm not willing to turn my problems over to a doorknob! ha.)

One last thing, an excellent book on the travisty of AA is "The Real AA". It makes for very, very interesting reading.

If AA or NA works for you, great. It didn't work for me and never will. I asked too many questions that they tried to get out of by talking in circles.

 

[TheMerryPrankster]

Help!!!!!

Hi,

Probably the wrong Thread if not forum - newbie - forgive me.
I'm suffering - way too much to write more than a few sentences.
I foolishly got into fentermine - among other Nrcotics.
Sadly it was in this place that i found that you could smoke it - and oh my god - did I do that thig.

It ran out.

I've experineced withdrawal before many times - but *nothing * like this.

Anyone have *any* knowledge of what might help. *Anything*!!!

Thanks

 

[boogaloo]

My 2 cents

Whilst going through a detox program, 7 days inpatient. Being told that I must attend the AA/NA meetings really put me on the defensive. They told me I had no choice, attend the meetings or leave. I acted sick for the next 2 days to avoid having to go. I eventually had to go and was really put off by the amount of cliches and dogmatic acceptance of our (the groups) terrible fate-we would never again get to experience the euphoria and well being our drug of choice gave us. As much as I recognized the negative effects of opiates on my life I am also greatfull for the inner peace and happiness it brought and the only relief to my lifelong depression. I couldn't surrender myself to the miserable outlook of a life with a drug free depression. Not drug free really because apparently prescribed antidepressants are OK yet prescribed opiates are not.
I was not willing to surrender myself to the group and accept the veterans in the group as people who were entirely being honest with themselves. I needed to hear someone who recognized the good and the bad aspects of drug use.I am not willing to go through life waiting on an antidepressant that actually works.I would rather try and find a less harmful way to experience the joy opiates bring without fear of legal issues or a dire consequences in my working/living life. I am prepared to be a contributing member of society as well as an occasional drug user.I wish that I could find a group with similar views that I could learn from and live a more meaningful life without depression.

This may be rambling now but I have been feeling down for a couple of days. No opiates alas, just those fucked up SSRI's.

CarpeDiem

 

[B9]

^I think one aspect of matters is that eventually the drugs don't work anymore. that inner peace you talk about may last several years but eventually that aspect of it becomes gradually less effective, leaving you with a bumper sized habit & right back where you started. I can sympathise with your predicament, but overall, if possible, trying to alleviate/get rid of your depression would be best solved via a different route, if at all possible anyway.

Give it a little more time, things ought to start to look up sooner or later.

Good luck