Narcotics Anonymous

SomeKindaLove said:
As far as NA goes, two junkies will probably have three opinions. I'm of the opinion that it works for some (~10% I believe) but it is cultish and rather rigid in it's definitions of addiction and recovery. Not my bag. I do not buy into the disease concept of addiction. But whatever works for you to help you with your demons is all right in my book. I'd suggest that you check out the work of Stanton Peele and Rational Recovery, but TO EACH THEIR OWN with regards to recover.

Stanton Peele is the man...

Also, if anyone is interested in a book about this, I would recommend "Addiction is a Choice" by Jeffrey A. Schaler. This book lays everything out in such detail...

I agree that there are different ways to stop being an addict, but from my experience, AA and NA type programs really only hurt people and keep them sober temporarily. using AA's own statistics, they have a 3.7% overall success rate. The rate for people not going into those programs and trying to do it on their own is higher. So one could statistically say that AA and NA actually reduces one's chance of overcoming addiction.
 
Chaos23 said:
i am not an addict anymore.
Moderation is possible, but I wouldn't even dream of trying that with heroin. (my former DOC)
Why not? Is moderation possible, or isn't it? Make up your mind!

D@mn, I just can't stand the ridiculous two-faced attitudes toward addiction... most ppl are just plain CONFUSED.
 
MDPVagrant said:
Congratulations...

Sorry. I came off sounding like an asshole. I wasn't trying to... I was just letting you know that I do in fact have professional training in this sort of thing, and i have experienced both facets of the addiction world. (treatment and being a bottomed out addict myself)

Whatever works for you, go for it. All I am saying is that you are not powerless, and you are the master of your own destiny in this life.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. (and me sounding like a pompous asshole...)
=D
 
Thank you for telling me I'm not powerless... gee, I'm cured. LOL...

P.S. no prob on stating your credentials... I just don't hold with credentials much in this area. Particularly drug counselors, no matter what kind they may be (no offense). Everyone seems to have an agenda, except of course those suffering from this err... OK, "issue."

Re: you being a bottomed out addict... that's a self-definition, of course. In other words, your personal opinion.
 
MDPVagrant said:
Why not? Is moderation possible, or isn't it? Make up your mind!

D@mn, I just can't stand the ridiculous two-faced attitudes toward addiction... most ppl are just plain CONFUSED.

Moderation is possible, but heroin is a highly addictive drug. I have made the CHOICE to never use it again. I know the path that it can lead anyone down. Even people who have never been addicts get hooked on heroin all the time.

It seems obvious that if heroin destroyed one's life, they would avoid it in the future.

Could I do a bag of dope and not do it tomorrow? Yes.

Would I? NO. It would be a silly decision. That shit caused me enough pain.

i have done some bumps of coke very sporadically after my serious cocaine addiction. I don't crave coke, and I don't want to do it.

YES. moderation is possible. I moderate alcohol, psychedelics, coke, and weed. I probably use marijuana 1 or 2 times a month. coke like 1 time every 3 months. alcohol I drink multiple times a week....

I moderate. I choose not to do heroin.
 
Chaos23 said:
Could I do a bag of dope and not do it tomorrow? Yes.

Would I? NO. It would be a silly decision. That shit caused me enough pain.
What about doing a single bag of dope would cause you pain? Seems to me it would be very pleasurable.

i have done some bumps of coke very sporadically after my serious cocaine addiction. I don't crave coke, and I don't want to do it.
I can relate... I've smoked rock before, and hate it now (unpleasant as hell high).

I moderate. I choose not to do heroin.
Because it would "cause you pain" to do a single bag, then choose not to do it again for a long time. Something's missing here. Some sort of "freedom of choice" seems limited somehow... more "rah rah pull yourself up by your bootstraps" boosterism needed maybe? 8)

Edit -- sorry, it's just obvious we have some philosophical differences... it's all good, as the saying goes.
 
MDPVagrant said:
Thank you for telling me I'm not powerless... gee, I'm cured. LOL...

P.S. no prob on stating your credentials... I just don't hold with credentials much in this area. Particularly drug counselors, no matter what kind they may be (no offense). Everyone seems to have an agenda, except of course those suffering from this err... OK, "issue."

Re: you being a bottomed out addict... that's a self-definition, of course. In other words, your personal opinion.


I was on drugs for about 12 years. 7 of those years were spent shooting heroin every day, smoking crack every day, shooting coke, every day.

I robbed people, I weighed 129 lbs and looked like shit. (I am 185 lbs now and I am still on the thin side) I have been hospitalized with massive blood infections more than once. I was homeless for a short while, but always managed to find another person to manipulate into letting me stay with them.

After seeing many people come and go out of my life, even when I was working at the rehab, I still am one of the more fucked up people I have met. (there have been some who were definately more fucked up, but they were few and far between)

I don't say this in some dick-sizing way. I say this to illustrate a clear point. I was more fucked up than a screen door on a submarine.

I manipulated everyone, stole from everyone, got arrested a lot, got in fights, used weapons, felt hopeless, had nothing positive going for me, was suicidal, angry, depressed, bi-polar, schizoid, and full of self-deprecating rage.

It was quite 'bottomed out', even tho that doesn't really exist. I use that term as an illustration of how low my life got while under the spell of the drugs.

The bottom is death... there is no other bottom. unfortunately my sister and many of my friends have met the true bottom.

Because it would "cause you pain" to do a single bag, then choose not to do it again for a long time. Something's missing here. Some sort of "freedom of choice" seems limited somehow... more "rah rah pull yourself up by your bootstraps" boosterism needed maybe? 8)

Edit -- sorry, it's just obvious we have some philosophical differences... it's all good, as the saying goes.
I choose not to do heroin because it is a highly addictive drug which I obviously LOVED way too much.

If I WANTED to do H, I would. I don't want to because I relate it with my previously mentioned miserable existence. How could I do something that I have so much pain associated with?

I love this debate. I am not angry with you at all. Most people, especially those in AA and NA get very upset with me. I am just trying to spread what I see as the truth to being happy and successful.

I really do wish you the best in all your endeavors. If it helps you to think these things, then continue thinking them.
Perception is reality, so we can both technically be right.

For me, my addiction is not a disease. I am capable of moderation.

For other people with a different perspective, it is a disease to them, and they can not even have 1 drink without going off the deep end.

perception is reality.
 
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I would never subscribe to a program that has at BEST a 10% and at WORST <1% recovery rate. It works for very few people. Plus I hate the whole "Addiction is a disease" mantra... NO, it is dependency that could be classified as a medical condition but the psychological element of addiction is not a disease "like diabetes" as they claim.

I also don't believe that God sits up there and fixes your addiction... that takes the responsibility out of the hands of the addict and puts into some external supreme being. If you're Christian that'd probably work for you but since I am not well, it's not my thing.

At every meeting I've been to where people HAVE been sober for many years without relapsing they talk about how focused they are on their addiction. Focused on NOT using. I don't think you get over your addiction until it stops running your life, and people at AA/NA meeting are letting their addiction continue to dominate their lives.

But hey, if it works for you that's great!
 
Chaos, I am wondering if you think other programs, such as an inpatient, or intensive outpatient rehabilitation program are more successful, or superior to things like NA or AA. Personally I agree that addiction is a choice, but sometimes it doesnt feel that way because your entire life is enmeshed with the drug, so it feels like there is something "in" you that has gone wrong, and so to call it a disease might serve the purpose of helping the person to know that they themselves are not "bad" but their actions are. However I do not think people should use it as a cop-out and say well nothing i can do i have a disease. It is still something a person can overcome, but I tihnk inpatient setting help more for some because it helps remove them from their entire world, and offers them a new safe place, and a whole new way of dealing with whatever. Because normally people are escaping with drugs for a reason, and once they are able to cope more healthily then the desire to do drugs wans. Just curious what you thought.
 
Chaos23 said:
After seeing many people come and go out of my life, even when I was working at the rehab, I still am one of the more fucked up people I have met. (there have been some who were definately more fucked up, but they were few and far between)

I don't say this in some dick-sizing way. I say this to illustrate a clear point. I was more fucked up than a screen door on a submarine.

I manipulated everyone, stole from everyone, got arrested a lot, got in fights, used weapons, felt hopeless, had nothing positive going for me, was suicidal, angry, depressed, bi-polar, schizoid, and full of self-deprecating rage.
OK... now why would anybody *choose* for that to happen? Or did you just 'magically' gain freedom of choice after someone told you it was available? :|
The bottom is death... there is no other bottom. unfortunately my sister and many of my friends have met the true bottom.
According to you, they purposely chose that fate? I'm confused, or are you hinting that such freedom of choice is actually very limited, e.g very dependent on one's belief system. Sorry about your sister and friends, BTW.
I love this debate. I am not angry with you at all. Most people, especially those in AA and NA get very upset with me. I am just trying to spread what I see as the truth to being happy and successful.
Ditto, I enjoy 'heated' debates that manage to avoid flaming :). Thanks for the well wishes, back at ya...
 
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chicpoena said:
I would never subscribe to a program that has at BEST a 10% and at WORST <1% recovery rate. It works for very few people. Plus I hate the whole "Addiction is a disease" mantra... NO, it is dependency that could be classified as a medical condition but the psychological element of addiction is not a disease "like diabetes" as they claim.
Frankly, in the end stages it walks, talks and quacks exactly like a disease. Up until that point, it looks nothing at all like a disease to most people. The "psychological element" is EXACTLY EQUAL to the brain chemistry, pathways and neurons affected by the drug over many years. In many ways, you cannot just "think yourself out" of the situation.

You've got a drug affecting your brain chemistry and structure in very profound ways for say, 20 or 30 years. Why is alcohol's effects on the liver easy to believe, but its effects on the brain so difficult?
 
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i hate to say it, but this board has got to be one of the worst places to come for a balanced assessment of NA/AA. very few drug enthusiasts are going to be willing to keep an open enough mind to get much out of the program because they are far too wed to their commitment to continue partying.

it's all about barriers, and if you're looking for chinks in the armor of NA/AA they aren't hard to find. i could let the god/higher power element act as a barrier because i'm an atheist. i could allow the 'powerless' mantra to be a barrier because i believe in the strength of my own will. i could be bothered by the criticism that NA/AA is a cult. if you don't want to see any value in the meetings then there are a thousand stones to hurl at the organization.

if, alternatively, you come to learn, without prejudice, without preconceived notions, and without hunting for opportunities to dismiss the whole endeavor as worthless, there is a lot of good information to be absorbed. what one person might see as an obnoxious catchphrase can be a helpful bit of wisdom if you are someone who takes the time to consider it. maybe it's "parroting cliches" (as phrased in another thread here) or maybe it's sharing knowledge; it all depends on how receptive you are to trying a different approach. i think there is some tremendously useful experience being relayed in NA/AA, but i had to be 100% ready to hear it before it meant anything but bullshit to me. i would guess that most people involved in this discussion are not there yet. it's not an easy place to get to. it requires admitting defeat, and very few things are more brutal to the ego.

i have to filter out a lot of the god talk. i don't know that the whole 12-step process appeals to me. oftentimes i have to take the words i hear and reconstruct them to fit my own unique circumstances. even so, i can relate in some small way to almost every single person who speaks at these meetings. you have to want it though, and if i didn't i'd be thinking it was the biggest waste of my time on the planet.

rock bottom isn't death. rock bottom is the absolute shittiest thing you are willing to put up with before you get over yourself and admit that managing the problem alone isn't working. rock bottom might be a moving target as you continue to make excuses, but it is always a place you can climb out from eventually. death offers no such luxury.

some people can learn to moderate, and that's fantastic. not everyone is similarly equipped; all people have various strengths and weaknesses. i am not sure if i am one of the people who can learn lasting lessons and bounce back or not, but for the time being i am at least willing to entertain the idea that perhaps regulating my own abuse is not one of my skills. i think ultimately that's all you have to be to get something valuable out of NA/AA: willing to contemplate another option.
 
Addiction IS a choice. It is not, however, a GENUINE choice. Things change. Attitudes, external circumstances, etc. The factors influencing your choice may change and thus your decision will change.


While it may seem like a moral failure to anyone without the requisite experience that one would place such a high value on drugs enough to choose an addictive lifestyle, this is not the case. If you have all the information, I believe that it actually makes a great deal of sense to place such a high value on drugs. All spiritual theories aside, what we are is essentially an interaction of neurochemistry. What motivates even the most altruistic of actions is ultimately how the chemicals in your brain feel about what you just did, and the introduction of drugs into the equation affects this in a dramatic way. The "healthy" things that most people are disheartened to see removed by an addiction are actually just replaced by a more precise and predictable tool to achieve the end that they provided in the first place: all those little neurotransmitters bouncing happily in your brain. Given that, isn't it logical to say that a smarter person will use a more effective tool?

It seems like a clear choice, but of course it can't be, because drugs do in fact cause a lot of people great problems. The problem is, using the tool analogy, that the effectiveness of the tool experiences diminishing returns, and eventually becomes worthless, or at least less effective than the other non-drug tools available. When this occurs, it does make sense to stop using the less effective tool (i.e. stop getting high). But the relative effectiveness of the tools change as internal chemistry and external circumstances also change following a period of abstinence. Drugs will work again, taking you to that place that is really not achievable without them.

So the question comes down to "do I really want to forgo that thing which every molecule of my biology and every shred of my being recognizes as the state which the human animal was designed to strive for?" And that is the true paradox of drug use and addiction. It is ultimately a question that each individual has to make peace with and find some way to manage. It a thing easier said than done, and many people struggle with it their whole lives, often unconsciously.

Unfortunately, the 12 steps address this question in only the most superficial way. On one hand, they want to tell you that the best "tool" (I like this analogy) is God. But then they want to waffle on that in order to appear all inclusive. They want to say it isn't God (although in practice most people insist that it is) but rather a "higher power" that will help you get what drugs give you, and that that higher power is whatever you choose it to be. This makes absolutely no sense because it doesn't address the central question. God may not exist, and there is no guarantee that whatever you might choose to replace God will work to either do the same thing for you that drugs could, or to remove the fact that you actually need what drugs provide. Rather, it offers a false answer and then piles on as much rhetoric as possible to convince you that the answer is genuine. "Simply believe hard enough that it will happen and it will." It is the ultimate placebo effect. It takes the real fact that drugs "work" and tries to convince you that its not true. But it is.

I don’t mean to imply that drugs are the ultimate solution. As I have already conceded, drugs stop working after a while. But the fact remains that, neurochemically, drugs work better than any method which doesn’t include drugs for a period of time. They are a temporary solution. One can say that, given that the satisfaction and happiness that drugs offer is only temporary, that they should be discounted entirely. But this ignores the fact that natural means of achieving the satisfaction that drugs provide are non existent. The brain simply cannot achieve such feats without external chemical assistance. Since the brain is hard wired to pursue the rewarding experiences that drugs provide to a greater degree than any other means, any non-drug method of achieving that end will ultimately come up short. Thus, drugs are not the solution, but abstinence is not the solution either, because while a high life provides greater satisfaction (in terms of brain chemistry), it is not sustainable, but the satisfaction (in terms of brain chemistry) provided by a clean life can never equal that of one based on getting high.

What the 12 steps do is deny this fact. They tell you that what is achievable without drugs is better than what is achievable with drugs. They attempt to redefine happiness, and then offer a path that allows you to achieve what they have defined. If you accept their definition of the ultimate goal, then it makes sense. I don’t. I believe that, by virtue of the fact that we exist in the physical realm, our happiness is based on our physical chemistry. And my experience supports this conclusion for me. Drugs take me to the peak of the mountain, and without them that summit is beyond reach. And I believe that we are hard wired to strive for that peak. To turn away from it is a constant struggle, a constant denial of the human condition.

What 12 step support groups do is create an arena in which that struggle is played out. They offer a figurehead on which to rely to deny the essential truth, that we want the feeling of being high more than we want anything else. But unless, in actuality, God exists, then the figurehead, the “higher power” which the 12 steps postulate, is a self made creation, empowered only by ourselves. So in the end we are left back where we started, constantly fighting against the tidal pull of the unequivocal solution that drugs provide.

It’s a catch-22. You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t. Take your pick: Fight to get high, or fight not to get high. It’s still a fight. The repetition and lifetime commitment that NA proffers is a testament to that. If one were truly freed by the 12 steps, then the continued participation in the organization and the program of living that NA requires would be unnecessary.

So, if for whatever personal reasons you have, you choose to fight against drugs, you could choose NA. They offer social support and a psychological crutch in the form of "turning over your will." Attending meetings is the most overt alternative because it is patently anti-drugs/drinking. This is not to say, however, that choosing any other lifestyle that does not include drug use is any less anti-using. It is simply another species of the same animal. It is because of this reason, IMO, that 12 step meetings are simply a big loud noise about nothing. Because, as I have argued, I believe the higher power concept to be a falsehood that fails to eliminate the fight that you will have to continue, the uniqueness and usefulness of NA ceases to exist. Their primary method of dispatching with the struggle involved in remaining abstinent is only so much empty rhetoric, and the qualifier that the NA philosophy can be interpreted subjectively is only a means of keeping the organization alive by dancing around the fact that their claims are false.
Taking an attitude of "it means whatever you want it to mean" is a cop-out IMO. If it means whatever you want it to mean, then how can you say it means anything more than anything else? Everything can mean whatever you want it to mean, so then what is the point of adopting the 12 step philosophy over any other way of life that is incompatible or unrelated to drug use?

Ultimately, success in remaining clean comes on the neurochemical field, not the spiritual one. It’s easier not to get high when we are as close to getting naturally high as possible. This means becoming engaged in life in a way which stimulates the brain’s reward response as much as possible, which is essentially living a traditionally happy life: having hobbies, friends, success, emotional well being, and health, while avoiding stress, sickness, depression, and other negative factors. This is something that does not require the philosophy of NA in the least. So, as far as I can see, what’s the point in sitting in a church basement every night rattling on about the fact that it’s hard not to do drugs. Of course it is! I’m not particularly strengthened by hearing it over and over. If the social support given by the meetings helps you, then by all means pursue it, but it may not, and if it doesn’t, don’t go. Moreover, you could also explore other avenues of social support, such as seeing a therapist or simply hanging out with people who don’t do drugs but are not involved in NA

If you do find that meetings help in this singular way, however, try to remember that it is no guarantee of anything. Personally, I get tired of the fight on either side of the coin after a while. When regular life gets too I end up getting high, and when getting high stops working and starts hurting, I go back to regular life. Despite repeated declarations of “I’ll never be able to stop using,” and “I never want to get high again,” I always end up doing both. I’ve never been much of a fighter anyway. Maybe you’ll do better, but in my experience and from what I have seen in others, NA has nothing or very little to do with it in the end. If you are able to be successful in keeping yourself happy without drugs, and you are somehow able to make peace with the fact that you will never feel that high again, then great. But often times life conspires to make the drugs worth it, if only for a brief time.

Good luck? :\
 
Anasrequiem said:
Chaos, I am wondering if you think other programs, such as an inpatient, or intensive outpatient rehabilitation program are more successful, or superior to things like NA or AA. Personally I agree that addiction is a choice, but sometimes it doesnt feel that way because your entire life is enmeshed with the drug, so it feels like there is something "in" you that has gone wrong, and so to call it a disease might serve the purpose of helping the person to know that they themselves are not "bad" but their actions are. However I do not think people should use it as a cop-out and say well nothing i can do i have a disease. It is still something a person can overcome, but I tihnk inpatient setting help more for some because it helps remove them from their entire world, and offers them a new safe place, and a whole new way of dealing with whatever. Because normally people are escaping with drugs for a reason, and once they are able to cope more healthily then the desire to do drugs wans. Just curious what you thought.

I totally agree that an inpatient program can help people. if it wasn't for the alternative treatment I went to, I seriously doubt I would have gotten the wake up call needed to quit.

Addiction certainly does make people feel completely hopeless. I believe that the inpatient setting allows for people to take a complete break from their routine, which is necessary for the worst of the addicts to change their ways.

I would suggest going to alternative treatments such as the one found at passages in malibu, or the st jude retreat house in amsterdam, ny. Those places teach the individuals that they have a choice, and they try to instill the motivation and dedication required to change one's life completely. It gives the person a place to be without all of the same nonsense surrounding them.

I personally think that when possible, moving away from the place you were an addict in is one of the best bets to really change yourself. This way you don't have all of the same people knocking at your door.

It is really about having a complete upheaval of who you are, and totally changing yourself into the person you want to become. This take a drastic amount of effort, and takes a couple of years to accomplish. One must be totally driven to do so, or else they may fall victim to making the same choices that were so harmful to them in the past.
 
Although I am also one to believe that things in the world happen the way they do for some 'reason'.... I still think it is totally irresponsible to consider your fate sealed because of determinism.

One can accept their fate, or one can do whatever they can to change the current status of their life. Then if they end up being quite successful because of the hard work and dedication they had to becoming so, you can still say it was meant to be based on whatever factors you want to plug into the equation.

Determinism, when speaking to many drug addicts is quite unhealthy, and gives people little hope for change. This is due to the psychological nature of the issue, as well as the fact the most addicts feel completely hopeless and that they have been dealt that deck of cards in life rather than taking full responsibility. Subsequently, many addict stay in this mindframe for the rest of their life. Accepting the cruel fate of them not being able to choose a different lot in life. RUBBISH....

When not talking to addicts the discussion of the philosophical aspects of determinism is fine in most cases, as a solid argument can be made in either direction.

To even throw this concept into the face of someone who is wanting to change their life is quite irresponsible. One must not give up. Where there is life there is always hope. Change is possible... it is the only constant.

Everything will always change. People change, the world changes, the seasons change, EVERYTHING changes with the passing of time. So why not take adequate steps to change one's own life? Everything is going to change anyway, so it might as well be to the person's favor.

So to give up on your own ability to choose because you think everything is determined by your past actions and that you may be too late to move forward is only going to allow you to destroy your life. People are capable of accomplishing virtually anything.

People do have free-will, or at least the appearance of free will... meaning that if you make the right decisions and work hard good things tend to happen in your life. But who is to say the positive decision making wasn't predetermined by some other aspect? These are all interesting questions which can not truly be answered definitively.

The link I clicked didn't work. Which person's definition of determinism are you speaking of?
 
All I know is that when I went to the http://stepchat.com/ I was berated for saying that I needed someone to talk to because I felt as though I might self-injure...One named paul, said something like 'we're not here to baby you, this is reality you will not be pampered blah blah blah...' I left in tears, didn't cut myself that night but realized how hypocritical NA and AA are...
 
Chaos23 said:
Although I am also one to believe that things in the world happen the way they do for some 'reason'.... I still think it is totally irresponsible to consider your fate sealed because of determinism.

One can accept their fate, or one can do whatever they can to change the current status of their life. Then if they end up being quite successful because of the hard work and dedication they had to becoming so, you can still say it was meant to be based on whatever factors you want to plug into the equation.

Determinism, when speaking to many drug addicts is quite unhealthy, and gives people little hope for change. This is due to the psychological nature of the issue, as well as the fact the most addicts feel completely hopeless and that they have been dealt that deck of cards in life rather than taking full responsibility. Subsequently, many addict stay in this mindframe for the rest of their life. Accepting the cruel fate of them not being able to choose a different lot in life. RUBBISH....

When not talking to addicts the discussion of the philosophical aspects of determinism is fine in most cases, as a solid argument can be made in either direction.

To even throw this concept into the face of someone who is wanting to change their life is quite irresponsible. One must not give up. Where there is life there is always hope. Change is possible... it is the only constant.

Everything will always change. People change, the world changes, the seasons change, EVERYTHING changes with the passing of time. So why not take adequate steps to change one's own life? Everything is going to change anyway, so it might as well be to the person's favor.

So to give up on your own ability to choose because you think everything is determined by your past actions and that you may be too late to move forward is only going to allow you to destroy your life. People are capable of accomplishing virtually anything.

People do have free-will, or at least the appearance of free will... meaning that if you make the right decisions and work hard good things tend to happen in your life. But who is to say the positive decision making wasn't predetermined by some other aspect? These are all interesting questions which can not truly be answered definitively.

The link I clicked didn't work. Which person's definition of determinism are you speaking of?

The link should work now. I'm not arguing whether or not determinism is the most healthy philosophy to live by for drug-addicts (or non drug-addicts, for that matter) I'm just throwing it out there as one possible theory that is seems to answer--if not make completely render irrelevant--the question: is addiction a disease?
 
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