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Myths about LSD

wazza

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 24, 2001
Messages
4,619
Location
Victoria
Ok, we were talking on IRC about LSD storage and stuff. I did a quick search on erowid and found this in LSD FAQ #2

STORAGE:
First, note that LSD is a fairly stable organic molecule, no more or
less fragile than other molecules with comparable structures.
The main factors to be concerned with are moisture (due to leaching
and facilitated chemical reactions in the presense of moisture),
oxygen, light, and temperature. Reaction rates typically depend upon
temperature exponentially. These factors basically apply to all
organic compounds.
Sealing in AL foil in a cool dark place is fine. Some recommend
refrigeration, but be careful about nosy guests, condensation, and frost.
Multiple, redundant seals are suggested, eg., paper in metal foil in
plastic in a metal candy tin which has been taped shut. Should last
at least a presidential term.
Wallets are contraindicated as storage locations due to sweat.

I've heard plenty of BL'ers mention never to put lsd with foil and that it lasts only a very short time. Well, I guess a presidential term is roughly 4 years so this hopefully dispels the myth that it only lasts a very short time. A friend personally found a trip they had thought lost for 3-4 years and ate it and it seemed to be 100% same strength or very close to it.

Does anyone else have any myths/stories about LSD they know that exists (especially on bluelight) like reactions to foil etc that they care to share here?

Thanks..
 
Heard one years ago that was ment to explain flshbacks. The story goes that LSD is stored in your fat cells and when you eventually burn up that fat through exercise the LSD is released into the blood stream and cases you to trip again. :p

Cheers
JoKeR =D
 
hmmm wazza, i tend to disagree slightly about LSD being as stable as other organic compounds of interest. For example meth can be wet or even disolved in water and remain potent. It can be heated up and remain stable. MDMA also has these properties I beleive wheather to the same extent or not.

LSD will not remain stable if exposed to moisture and heat.
 
Runner said:
LSD will not remain stable if exposed to moisture and heat.

runner, just for interest sake, what sorta heat (temp) and moisture (humidity?) are you talking about before LSD degrades?
 
Runner said:
hmmm wazza, i tend to disagree slightly about LSD being as stable as other organic compounds of interest. For example meth can be wet or even disolved in water and remain potent. It can be heated up and remain stable. MDMA also has these properties I beleive wheather to the same extent or not.

Runner, the quote says :
first, note that LSD is a fairly stable organic molecule, no more or less fragile than other molecules with comparable structures
 
lorrett: any temp over about 30C and variable humidity, but doesn't take much. Basically if you leave it uncovered in your draw, say bye bye to it. Just like the marquise reagent will be no more than a brown mixture of sulphuric acid and methanoic acid after a month or two if left on your desk in summer.

shorza: oops, misread, my apologies.
 
LSD will not remain stable if exposed to moisture and heat.
I'd like to put my input in about this.... I've already told lots of people about this experience with LSD.

We had quite a few trips wrapped up in foil and placed into a plastic container while we were at **** last year. This container fell into our esky without us knowing and when we found it, the container was full of icy water, the acid was completely wet (and no we didnt drink the water....). Thinking we'd just destroyed all our trips we decided to leave it uncovered in the tent to dry out for the rest of the weekend. So it sat in our tent and then we moved it to the glove box of the car where it sat for a good month in nice hot summer temperatures (still in the foil). During the first week of Jan, we were at a friend's place where we got it out and gave our friend a trip to see whether they were any good. I ended up having 2 that night and they were still damn strong! There appeared to be little acid loss if any.

So, I dont know if our experience was a once-off freak of nature or something. Coz we did nothing to try and preserve it after it got wet, thinking it was already destroyed. But its definately made us rethink the whole "acid is extremely fragile" thing.

Just thought I'd relay an intereating experience to spice things up :)

stace.

[Edit: Abbreviated event details removed to comply with posting guidlelines.
phase_dancer :) ]
 
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stacy: well damn, beats me :)

this might have been a pure freak of nature... you trips might have been impregnated with LSD very carefully so the acid is trapped inside the cardboard and didn't get a chance to migrate into the water, but under your toungue, when the tab is properly soaked and squeeze it does?

When they dried out, perhaps the temp never got quite hot to fully destroy them?

And after all, a month is not long. Providing the trips didn't get destroyed on initial dipping into water, if a trip is strong, say half of LSD decomposed during a month (very likelly) - the other half should still have fairly strong effects.

Anyone have any other ideas?
 
^^ I have some ideas. I'm still undecided on the whole issue myself... But here's what's going through my head...

First, note that LSD is a fairly stable organic molecule, no more or less fragile than other molecules with comparable structures.
Now I'm no chemical boffin like phase_dancer or biscuit so I'll stand to correction here, but I think this is a difficult comment to put into context... I always thought LSD stuck out in terms of it's chemical structure and lack of close relatives. Shulgin mentions ALD-52, LSM-775, MLD-41, BOL-148 and MBL-61 in his discussion of LSD analogues. Are analogues given that name due to "comparable structures"?

Shulgin doesn't mention anything about any of them being particularly fragile... Although he makes the comment below about LSD.

To quote Dr. Shulgin:

LSD is an unusually fragile molecule and some comments are in order as to its stability and storage. As a salt, in water, cold, and free from air and light exposure, it is stable indefinitely.

The absence of stability details for the analogue chemicals may be due to the absence of psychadelic potential among them.

I think a lot of people misinterpreted Shulgins words to mean exposure to light/air will cause the LSD to deteriorate beyond any psychoactive potential. Those are ideal storage conditions... Which does not necessarily mean that adverse conditions will destroy it.

Another take on the situation entirely is that the blotter paper which LSD is often dropped onto might be deteriorating. Could chlorine or other dyes on the paper react with the LSD? Perhaps the method or order in which the dye and LSD are combined with the paper leads to easier deterioration. Could it in fact be that moisture, light and heat break down molecules of the paper, taking the LSD with it?

Anyway, these are quite simply thoughts and conclusions I've come up with just now. Please feel free to tear anything I've said apart.
 
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I had a friend who SWORE that you could freebase quarter tabs of acid. he even offered me a try, but i declined on the ground that I would be totally stupid to waste a quater of a black star.

I think that it has to be the most irresponsible use of LSD i have ever seen.

you just cant smoke/freebase LSD. It just wont work! Please please please slap anyone you ever see who tries to do this. Then dont talk to them for 2 weeks because it is the most idiotic thing anyone could do, and personally offends you that anyone could be that stupid.

*shaking head*
Andromeda:)
 
I've always been in the boat that apollo is presenting. (as I understand it)

The fact remains that it is extremely unlikely that someone will attempt to sell close analogues of LSD on the market.

However, over months and under temperature differences and conditions I've always been of the belief that very similar chems may be produced, through time, doing as funky, or even funkier things than the known and (relatively) tested LSD.

It is highly unlikely that we will find out more about it any time soon. But on the other hand, if you are taking a dose of this wacky new compound (unknowingly), it is extremely unlikely to be physically harmful
 
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I'm sorry about the little tangent here but I didn't think it was worth it's own thread and people who could answer it would be reading this anyways...

Has anyone in AUS ever seen acid in gel-tab form?

I'm asking this because although liquid and paper-doped LSD is reactant to heat and light (the reason why liquid is stored in U/V bottles), the gel tabs don't seem to be quite as vulnerable to the elements as regular storage methods.

If this is true, it presents the question as to why it isn't stored like this?

-space restraints?
-time restraints?
-x-men2?
 
experiment for yourself - get a vial of liquid and let it set in your window and see how long it lasts....
 
thatd be a fucken waste! hehe i had some liquid in a vial once, and left it in the car once in the heat and after that it was NO where near as good.
 
apollo an analogue is usually classed as a compound similar in structure, but with different functional groups attached.

MDMA is to MDA the same way 5MeSDMT is to 5MeODMT and ephedrine is to amphetamine. In the former it is a different amine (sec -> primary) the second has a sulphur substituted for an Oxygen and with ephedrine it is simply the addition of an OH group.

Homologues are compounds which have different carbon lengths to the parent compound. A simple example is to compare MBDB to MDMA. MBDB (eden, methyl J etc.) is 1 carbon longer in the alkyl chain - 4 instead of 3 - than MDMA. Otherwise the molecule is chemically identical, as the amine is off the 2nd carbon and the ring is the same etc. Altering the carbon chain length on an amine (methylamine -> ethylamine), or lengthening the chain of a methoxy substitute to an ethoxy are also examples of homologues.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In regards to LSD fragility; maybe a better experiment would be to halve your liquid/trips and store one half in supposedly ideal conditions and the other half as kewl suggests - on the window ledge. That way you have the original "well kept" version to compare strength etc. Of course it's impossible to take subjectivity out of the equation (set and setting), and any degradation would likely change with concentration, but if assayed it should be obvious if there's a significant drop in potency.


LSD is a geometrically unique molecule when comparing it to other familiar tryptamines and phenethylamines. To look at it simply, the structure contains some rather unstable positioning of the attached atoms. An analogy could be a spring loaded electrical switch where if it is pushed past a certain point the switch throws and the contacts move with the releasing spring. With molecules, structural changes can occur because attached groups like to distance themselves from similar charged groups and move closer to oppositely charged groups. Other factors influence positional preference such as the bulkiness of the atoms. Sometimes positioning is an overall compromise, meaning several bonds between atoms are strained (higher energy - less stable)

As referenced below in Shulgins quote, with LSD the carboxamide group and and asociated hydrogen switch positions relative to the rest of molecule, producing iso-LSD. All it takes is for a bit of energy to push the switch. Shulgin states this eperimisation is catalysed by light or alkaline conditions. The double bond adjacent to the carboxamide is also susceptable to addition of an OH group catalysed by UV/visable light or free radical reactions (e.g. chlorine).

Structually then, LSD is somewhat fragile

It is also important to appreciate the potency of LSD. As a very rough comparison, comparing 100ug of LSD to 100mg of MDMA, LSD is effectively 1000 times more potent. Therfore one of the things which shouldn't be forgotten when thinking of a relatively fragile molecule like LSD, is the relative concentration of the form; microdot, blotter gel. Even liquid.

When considering a small amount of concentrated liquid, approx. 1 gram of tartrate salt dissolves in 1mL of H2O (LSD being very water soluble)

1g LSD + 1mL of H2O -> LSD solution concentrate of 1g/ml or 1000g/ L

An arguably large dose for many non-regular users is say = 200ug

If 1 drop of concentrate = approximately 50uL of liquid

1drop as 50uL x 1000g/L = 0.05g = 50mg

50mg / 1 High dose (200ug) therefore = 250 high doses !!

So liquid acid sold or consumed by the drop is usually very diluted, sometimes by as much as 1:1000 or more using the above model. That means for the given physical mass of a std dose, the LSD content is normally a very small %. Levels of destructive chlorine or other reactive species therefore do not have to be present in large amounts to do damage e.g. concentration of chloride ions in a drop of tap water.

Shulgins notes as mentioned by apolloFrom TiHKAL # 26

LSD is an unusually fragile molecule and some comments are in order as to its stability and storage. As a salt, in water, cold, and free from air and light exposure, it is stable indefinitely. There are two sensitive aspects of its structure. The position of the carboxamide attachment, the 8-position, is affected by basic, or high pH, conditions. Through a process called epimerization, this position can scramble, producing isolysergic acid diethylamide, or iso-LSD. This product is biologically inactive, and represents a loss of a proportionate amount of active product. A second and separate point of instability is the double bond that lies between this 8-position and the aromatic ring. Water or alcohol can add to this site, especially in the presence of light (sunlight with its ultraviolet energy is notoriously bad) to form a product that has been called lumi-LSD, which is totally inactive in man. Oh yes, and often overlooked, there may be only an infinitesimal amount of chlorine in treated tap water, but then there is only an infinitesimal amount of LSD in a typical LSD solution. And since chlorine will destroy LSD on contact, the dissolving of LSD in tap water is not appropriate

J Anal Toxicol 1998 Oct;22(6):520-5 (Medline (PMID=9788528))

Stability study of LSD under various storage conditions.

Li Z, McNally AJ, Wang H, Salamone SJ.

A controlled study was undertaken to determine the stability of LSD in pooled urine samples. The concentrations of LSD in urine samples were followed over time at various temperatures, in different types of storage containers, at various exposures to different wavelengths of light, and at varying pH values. LSD concentrations were measured quantitatively by the Abuscreen RIA and by HPLC using a fluorescence detection method. Good correlation was observed between the immunoassay and the fluorescent integrity of the LSD molecule. Thermostability studies were conducted in the dark with various containers. These studies demonstrated no significant loss in LSD concentration at 25 degrees C for up to 4 weeks. After 4 weeks of incubation, a 30% loss in LSD concentration at 37 degrees C and up to a 40% at 45 degrees C were observed. Urine fortified with LSD and stored in amber glass or nontransparent polyethylene containers showed no change in concentration under any light conditions. Stability of LSD in transparent containers under light was dependent on the distance between the light source and the samples, the wavelength of light, exposure time, and the intensity of light. After prolonged exposure to heat in alkaline pH conditions, 10 to 15% of the parent LSD epimerized to iso-LSD. Under acidic conditions, less than 5% of the LSD was converted to iso-LSD. We also demonstrated that trace amounts of metal ions in buffer or urine could catalyze the decomposition of LSD and that this process can be avoided by the addition of EDTA. This study demonstrates the importance of proper storage conditions of LSD in urine in order to insure proper analytical testing results over time.

"Table II illustrates that fluorescent light can cause decommposition of LSD in transparent containers when they are placed in close proximity [15 cm] to the light source. Under these conditions, the half-life of LSD was approximately 4 weeks. As the distance between the source of fluorescent light and the samples increased, the percent of LSD decomposition decreased. The results demonstrate that LSD can withstand normal room light conditions at a constant temperature of 25°C for 1 week without noticeable structural change."

Sorry bout the long post everyone, hope there was something in it worth the read
 
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