Treatment My doc wants to prescribe suboxone for kratom and alcohol, should i do it?

[Mycophile]

So, I've never used serious hard drugs like heroin or meth or any of that, but I'm admmitadly an alcoholic (not as bad as some, I drink about a bottle of wine 4-5 nights a week in the past few months), Kratom addict who was able to stave off Kratom addiction for years, but been dosing about 24-36 grams, 2-3 doses total a day for the past 2-2 1/2 months, and taking Dexadrine 20mgs once a day for about 3 months.

I've always been able to break my Kratom dependencies temporarily before by just sleeping for 3-5 days pretty much, and the same thing with Dexadrine which took about 11 days to get over when I did it over the summer. I've never had alcohol withdrawal, but i now realize that the fact that I take Klonopin is what has made both my Kratom WD and potentially any mild alcohol WD symptoms much easier.

But even though I totally love Kratom and drinking, and to slightly less extent dexadrine, I know it's time for me to get sober for as long as possible cause it's all causing too many problems in my life. I will never decide, or cannot imaging ever deciding to quit any of these drugs permanently, but I'm dead set on starting with a full month without ANYTHING, then hopefully 3 months, then hopefully 6, and we'll see where it goes.

So I started seeing a social worker who is a former addict and pretty cool guy who's a drug counseler and he suggest a psychopharmacologist.

I want her to prescribe me ultra low dose naltrexone because I heard that it gives an endorphine mood boost for my moderate depression, helps with cravings, and because I've HEARD that it can supposedly be taken with kratom safely, potentiating the high BUT simultaneoulsy making you not really want to take Kratom or alcohol, which sounds like the best of both worlds, and lowering tolerance and supposedly eliminating side effects, whereas normal naltrexone blocks opioids completely, and I also want either that or high dose naltrexone for alcohol.

This doctor at first listened to my proposal for ultra low dose naltrexone and considered it, but now says its' ''too experimental and if i am thinking of taking it with kratom then she can't feel safe giving it to me'', which frankly i think is bullshit, since she admitted that she can't see how it could be dangerous, and only doubts ULDN may work as well for cravings as high dose nal.

Truth is, i know I'd want to EVENTUALLY try mixing ULDN w/ kratom, but initially I would just want sobriety and lower cravings.

However, she is willing to give me either suboxone or regular naltrexone.

Id take regular naltrexone to just prevent me from drinking or taking kratom for a while so i can be sure to be sober, but I am frankly pretty baffled that she'll prescribe suboxone but not ultra low dose naltrexone since i have read on here a number of times that people use suboxone to get high.

Thing is...I DON'T WANT ANOTHER ADDICTIVE DRUG THAT CAN GET ME HIGH.

I don't want to replace Kratom and drinking with suboxone if it's just another high, and frankly, my guess is that suboxone is a stronger opiate than kratom and I told her I thought that was the case and she said ''how could suboxone be stronger than kratom when it's only a partial agonist and partial blocker?''

I don't know, but I read suboxone has high abuse potential, I know some of you guys get high off it, and i read it can be lethal to combine with alcohol, and while that would certainly scare me away from drinking, and I want to not drink for a while anyway, i don't know how comfortable I feel taking something lethal with booze either.

Does suboxone actually even block a person from getting drunk like it blocks opioids?

If so I'd feel safer taking it in that way because I'd know there'd be no point in trying to drink on it anyway.

And she says that suboxone will help with my kratom WD, which is appealing, but while I know this round of kratom WD will be worse than any in the past because I had never gone more than like 10 days in a row without kratom and now i've gone like 2 1/2 months in a row...I still bet i could just sleep for a week on christmas break and feel like shit but still get off kratom and be ok without it.

So, basically, my question is, considering I DON'T want something else that can get me high, and I want reduced cravings for kratom, alcohol and other drugs, and that I don't know if it blocks alcohol and is lethal to combine it, would you really recommend it for someone like me who does want a period of sobriety but doesn't have an issue with a more serious drug like Heroin or Oxy??

I mean, I bet a lot of you guys would JUMP at the chance for suboxone cause I read that some of you like it and bupe, which I guess is part of what is in subs, because I've read your threads about liking it, but anything more than a mild antidepressant effect is not what I want.

She does say that suboxone could give a mild mood boost as it is used off label as an antidepressant, and that interests me cause i have depression, but that's also why i was interested in ULDN cause that isn't abusable but also has that function.

When i told her i was concerned i might use it to get high and don't want to she said she wouldn't give me enough, but how could i not have enough to get high if she gives me a script and i just take more than i should?

This is one of those very weird cases where an addict wants a MILDER drug, microdosed ultra low dose naltrexone but NOT high dose, and yet is being offered something stronger instead because ''microdosing naltrexone is aytpical and she could get in trouble cause i might mix it with kratom'' LOL

You'd think i'd want a new drug to get high off of, but i dont, and i only wanted ULDN cause i heard that it helps with cravings and mood boosts but ALSO can supposedly safely be taken with kratom IF i want to, even though i also want to ''NOT WANT to use kratom and just be able to theroetically....but no...i feel this could be getting involved with a drug that is worse than kratom.

So, what do you guys think. Seeing as i want something to help me stay sober for at least a few months, reduce cravings and provide a mood boost, all of which i know suboxone does, but who AT THE SAME TIME DOES NOT WANT TO GET HIGH ON SOMETHING ELSE, should i take it?

Or in my case would you take the high dose naltrexone instead cause it won't have me possibly trying to get high off it?

And if suboxone helps with drug cravings but can possibly also be used to get high, then would it possibly reduce my desire to abuse it?

 

[Mycophile]

Suboxone, buprenorphine to be more precise, is a powerfool opioid agonist. The fact that it is a partial agonist does not matter, because it activates opioid receptors much more than kratom does. By the way, kratom is also partial opioid agonis.

Big difference is that buprenorphine is effectively full agonist in doses below 2mg (sublingual). 1mg of buprenorphine will have effect similar in strenght like 40mg of oral morphine! It is just not as pleasurable as morphine or oxycodone, but if you have low tolerance, buprenorphine would make you high like any other opioid agonist, just in its own way.

If you do not want to get yor tolerance increased to 80-100 mg oral morphine than stay away from buprenorphine. Regarding alcohol usage, buprenorphine will not make you enjoy alcohol less. Even though some people do stop drinking when they start taking buprenorphine, it is not that buprenorphine blocks alcohol effects. It is very dangerous to mix buprenorphine and alcohol, especially without high tolerance. You were mentioning taking clonazepam and that is a terrible trio - buprenorphine +alcohol +clonazepam = serious OD threat.

All in all, I would advise against buprenorphine for substances you mentioned, as it would not help with stimulant or alcohol part of the problem, and would make your opioid tolerance even greater.

Disclaimer: I am not a doctor and this is an opinion not medical advice. Work with your health provider as he is the only one that can really know your issues.

I wish you all the luck!

THANK YOU.

Man, I was almost decided before but now i am 100 percent decided. And i freaking KNEW I WAS RIGHT and that suboxone is worse than kratom!!

So why do you think my doctor doesn't realize this and why won't she prescribe me ultra low dose naltrexone but only suboxone and high dose naltrexone ?

I know she's afraid i'll mix kratom with ULDN as she knows i want to and because ULDN is not commonly prescribed like full dose she says she'd be liable, but here she wants to prescribe something WAY more dangerous than kratom, and even while i'm on klonopin. i asked her if the combo was dangerous and she said ''well its not a good idea to mix klonopin with lots of things, like alcohol for example.''

And i'm like ''yes, i know mixing alchohol with klonopin isn't supposed to be safe, but i've been doing it for 15 years and never had any problems.

Now that's an anecdote, but regardless, here i am WANTING A SAFER DRUG, MICRODOSES OF A DRUG SHE'LL ALREADY PRESCRIBE, AND SHE'LL ONLY PRESCRIBE FULL DOSE OR SUBOXONE.

It makes me very angry.

I mean, I'm no doctor, so how could it be that i am figuring this stuff out and and MD can't seem to ?

Is it just that i am thinking outside the box and know about kratom and she doesn't and read about ultra low dose naltrexone and she hasn't?

Why are doctors who specialize in this still not aware of these things that we are?

They are afraid to experiment with a fringe therapy like microdosing with an already accepted drug, but will prescribe dangerous medications because it is protocal.

I now want more than ever to convince her that kratom is safer than she thinks.

Also, let me ask you this; do you believe that withdrawal from a medical dose of suboxone would be worse than withdrawal from my dosage of about 24 grams of kratom a day for 3 months ?

And do you think i'd actually get high off a medically prescribed dose of suboxone?

Also, if I took even a medically prescribed dose of suboxone do you think that i'd get more addicted in general to opiates, and that it would piggy back off the kratom ?

You seem to be saying it would.

I'm angry that doctors aren't open minded enough and don't understand a drug like kratom.

She said this to me when I asked about suboxone withdrawal and if it would be bad ''well it would be nothing like what you are doing coming off of Kratom, dexadrine and alcohol''

BUT ISNT SHE WRONG?!!

Kratom is NOT that bad and neither is dexadrine, and i'm not actually really addicted to alcohol. I take klonopin which she and i both admitted makes my kratom wd easier to tolerate as well as my alcohol cravings, but i still know that even without the klonopin I'm not HEAVILY addicted to alcohol and would still have nothing worse than some cravings and a little depression and that's all that ever happens to me.

 

[Mycophile]

1.) Withdrawal from 2mg Suboxone would be incomparably worse than withdrawal from 24 grams of kratom taken for 3 months.

2.) If you would take 2mg, even 1mg Suboxone, you would get high.

3.) Suboxone is medication to treat opioid addiction. Like somebody taking 200mg oxycodone/morphine that are not prescribed for pain, or someone who is taking heroin. It can compensate for ~40mg methadone. So yes, given you take only kratom, it would certainly make you more dependent and I would bet more addicted to opioids in general.

Why she is pushing you towards Suboxone is beyond me. Maybe she would like you to stabilize on one substance, and for a doctor giving Suboxone is safest road to travel on. I do not know your situation so I can not say you should absolutely reject Suboxone. Dependence and addiction go hand in hand, but dependence does not equal addiction. If you have a hectic life due to multiple drugs, and are a poly addict then you could benefit from becoming dependent but stable on one substance. Only you and your doctor know all the details and I would advise you not to take this as an advice but opinion based on experience. I would not take Suboxone to go off kratom. But there is a greater picture and you will have to figure it out. I hope you and your doctor get this right!

Thanks.

If you read the rest of my posts i think you guys are right and that i should not take suboxone.

I told this doctor that kratom is also only a partial agonist and that we believe kratom is a lighter substance but she doesn't agree.

She said she'll give me a sublocade suboxone shot of a very low dose that lasts a month so i can't abuse it or take more, but sounds like you think it's stronger than kratom, and the reason i believe you over a doctor is because i think you have probably taken both kratom and suboxone and she hasn't.

She says she has treated many kratom addicts with suboxone and that is has helped them!!

Are we really the ones who are wrong cause we aren't doctors, or is she somehow managing to get these kratom users off kratom by using subs but still doing something really fucked up ?

I can't imagine how she's had success doing this from what i am reading, but she'd probably say we are all wrong and that's why it has worked.

i don't know, i know that most would say a doctor knows more about this than us, but she doesn't know much about kratom. She did not know it was also a partial agonist and didn't even know it was LEGAL till i told her!!

However, i dont' believe she's lying when she says she's used suboxone to treat kratom users and it's worked, but i don't think you guys are lying that you have experienced even a low dose of suboxone to be stronger than kratom.

Overall, because, despite her being a doctor, she doesn't know as much about kratom as you guys, nor as she ever herself had the experience of taking kratom or suboxone like you have, and because i am very distrustful of addiction doctors and basically whatever anyone who isn't a drug user has to say about drugs, i believe you guys over her.\

Yes, you are right than i am messed up do to using 3 substances consntantly and she thinks suboxone will reduce my cravings, but it's not the right path to go on if it's the equivalent of having a much worse opioid addiction than kratom, and i'd be afraid to drink on it cause it's dangerous, but naltrexone and antabuse both block alcohol and naltrexone blocks both, so thats what i think is safest.

She wants to put me on suboxone cause she says it will help my cravings and that natrexone probably won't, but OF COURSE a drug that is probably, in your opinoin, a far stronger opioid, or AT BEST if we humor her, no weaker than kratom, is going to reduce opioid cravings.....at the cost of making your problem worse...

Do you think that, given i have 11-12 days off work, that i am crazy for trying to cold turkey kratom, dexadrine and alcohol all at once ?

Others have advised against it and say i should stop one at a time, but i can't taper usually, and if could i'd be able to moderate, which i can't, and i have quit both kratom and dexadrine before, just not at the same time and not while my kratom dependency was as bad as it is now.

So since i have absoulutely nothing i have to do for 11-12 days and that's always been long enough to get over both kratom and dex acute wds in the past, i figure there's no reason to not give it shot and nothing to lose other than feeling like absolute hell and maybe some days i slip up and take a low dose of kratom or dex or drink a tiny bit to feel better and then go right back to abstaining as long as possible, spreading doses out as much as possible and keeping everything as low as possible till im over all wds from everything.

Basically, not a taper, but not cold turkey, half way between, ATTEMPTING cold turkey with all at once, but if i slip up then no harm no foul, i'll still have reduced my time in withdrawal with every dose skipped, every day without or even every dose of anything that's lower than my usual doses.

That makes sense right?

 

[Mycophile]

1.) Withdrawal from 2mg Suboxone would be incomparably worse than withdrawal from 24 grams of kratom taken for 3 months.

2.) If you would take 2mg, even 1mg Suboxone, you would get high.

3.) Suboxone is medication to treat opioid addiction. Like somebody taking 200mg oxycodone/morphine that are not prescribed for pain, or someone who is taking heroin. It can compensate for ~40mg methadone. So yes, given you take only kratom, it would certainly make you more dependent and I would bet more addicted to opioids in general.

Why she is pushing you towards Suboxone is beyond me. Maybe she would like you to stabilize on one substance, and for a doctor giving Suboxone is safest road to travel on. I do not know your situation so I can not say you should absolutely reject Suboxone. Dependence and addiction go hand in hand, but dependence does not equal addiction. If you have a hectic life due to multiple drugs, and are a poly addict then you could benefit from becoming dependent but stable on one substance. Only you and your doctor know all the details and I would advise you not to take this as an advice but opinion based on experience. I would not take Suboxone to go off kratom. But there is a greater picture and you will have to figure it out. I hope you and your doctor get this right!

Also, how do you know she'd prescribe 2mg or 1mg of suboxone and not lower ?

Are those the usual and lowest doses of suboxone that anyone prescribes?

And have you yourself taken different doses of suboxone and kratom and is that why you are able to say so definitively that suboxone gets you higher?

 

[LucidSDreamr]

suboxone will do nothing do address your alcohol addiction. suboxone is far more addictive than kratom, but at least you know its not full of poison like kratom has tested to be. i would get off of kratom and onto subs if thats the choice. The fda has put out studies showing alarmaing rates of toxic heavy metals in kratom.

 

[Mycophile]

It is possible to substitute anything with anything else, if it is the same class of drugs, but I do not think that putting people on buprenorphine for kratom is the way to go. It is increasing tolerance and asking for trouble. I do not think she would suggest methadone for kratom, but giving somebody 20mg methadone is like giving somebody 2mg Suboxone. It can work, but I would not go that way. She is more hurting than helping her patients if she is giving Suboxone for kratom. If I were to give somebody replacement for kratom it would be tramadol.



I do not think that it is sustainable and I would not stop all 3. Why not leave dexadrine and with clonazepam you could quit kratom and alcohol.



Lowering tolerance is good. Quitting alcohol and kratom would be better, as this substances are not medically prescribed and you are not held accountable during your use. That way it leads quicker to abuse and addiction. By the way you present I think that stabilizing on dexedrine and clonazepam would be best way to go. You gotta find a stable pattern with fewest substances in the mix. Otherwise you will run yourself into deeper and deeper holes.




I don't know, I guess. Reason is that in the USA there is no lower dosage than 2mg Suboxone and doctors will usually see that as the small dose for addiction. You will be, if Suboxone is prescribed, getting 2mg. Now, will she tell you to cut the strip? I don't know, but I believe she will see 2mg as good "low dose" for stabilization, and by giving you 2mg she will not have to go out of protocol. Producer of Suboxone does not advice strip to be cut.



No. Usually Suboxone is prescribed for addiction to stronger opioids. Like high dose (above 100mg daily ) hydrocodone, morphine, oxycodone or heroin. Usual doses of Suboxone are 8-16mg for the first few months, but they are based on each case. Tolerance and cravings are 2 biggest factors - higher the tolerance and cravings, higher the dose. If somebody presents with 300mg daily oxycodone addiction, process would be: first day on 8mg, second on 12mg, third 16mg, then stabilize for a month or so on 16mg and reduce to lowest dose that suppresses withdrawals and cravings. This days people are often maintained on 8mg daily, but 4mg is more than enough for most. It is rare that somebody will be induced by the doctor on dose below 4mg.



Yes. I have had a habit of 20+ grams of kratom daily and stopped it. Then later, I became dependent on morphine so I switched from 200mg morphine daily to buprenorphine. Nowadays I am tapering off of buprenorphine and I am down to 1mg. 1mg of sublingual buprenorphine is equivalent to about 40mg oral morphine. If you were to take 2 mg buprenorphine for 3 monthts, first you would get high for 2 weeks untill your tolerance would go up, and then you would adjust, but when the time for quitting comes you would be much worse off than with kratom.


Having said all that, I must emphasize that each life carries its own gross and subtle differences. I have given you my view based on my experience. Only you can decide which treatment you will accept. It is always wise to base your decision on doctors recommendation and if recommendation sounds odd - search another opinion.

Well, I am pretty sure i want to still TRY to cold turkey all 3, kratom, booze and dexadrine, because i have 11 days off work with nothing to do and if i feel bad it doesn't matter, and if i slip up and take a little kratom i still will end up eventually breaking my dependency if i take low enough doses and space them out more and seems to make more sense to me than going to suboxone based on my own intuition and what everyone says.

As far as ''it's not being sustainable'' to quit all 3 substances at once, there's no need to ''sustain'', seeing as as soon as no longer physically dependent on kratom i'll start naltrexone and be incapable of taking kratom or drinking so long as i swallow the pill nightly, or i take a shot that lasts a month, so all i need to do is get to the point that i am no longer dependent on kratom and immediately get on naltrexone and i'm good. I mean, i think anyone would agree with that logic in the sense that your will power is taken out of the equation if you start a drug blocker as soon as no longer dependent on kratom, you no longer CAN drink or take kratom, which is why i wanted naltrexone in the first place.

Not quitting dexadrine but stopping kratom and alcohol would be the worst of the 3 because dexadrine is not something i should even be on and when i don't take it with kratom, and even sometimes if i do, it gives me bad side effects and exacerbates my anxiety and i never should have started it in the first place.

And i obviously need to break my kratom dependency and drink a lot less.

It will be very very uncomfortalbe to stop all at once, but it won't kill me, and then i can get on naltrexone and no longer be able to take kratom or drink.

Do you still think this is a really bad idea, and if so, why?

And my doctor is now telling me she'd only put me on a quick suboxone detox that would not have be dependent on suboxone, so i guess thats better than maintainence, but do you still think that's better than either a kratom taper or quitting kratom cold turkey, and would the dosage of a quick suboxone detox still probably be 2mg or so and in your opinion, a stronger opioid than 12 grams of kratom that would leave me worse off in the end than just tapering or cold turkying kratom?

She REALLY wants me to take suboxone, but i really want to see if i can do it without suboxone.

You'd think i'd want whatever makes me most comfortable and go for it, and she says she just wants to do it to help me have the last amount of discomfort, but i don't see why then i couldn't just take smaller amounts of kratom.

I mean, i guess the one problem is being on subs takes my ability to choose different kratom doses out of the equation and slip up and take full doses, and there would be a more clear timeline as to when i'd be off the subs than off the kratom, but again, i have 11 days off, and i see no harm in trying to quit kratom first and seeing if i can do it and THEN if i can't going to subs than immediately deciding right now that the wd will be unmanagable and that i need subs.

I mean, do you think there's any huge downside to my trying to wean or even quit all substances cold turkey and only THEN give in to subs IF i can't handle it, other than the very significant amount of discomfort im going to put myself through?

I know you wouldn't personally quit all 3 at once, but wouldn't you at least TRY for a few days to see if you can make progress with the kratom dependency before IMMEDIATELY deciding to go on the suboxone, even if it's just a short detox, before i even know how i'm going to feel?

I mean, it's not like the offer for suboxone won't still be on the table, but because it's the holidays and it takes time to order and for my insurance to approve it, that means if i want subs later but don't decide now that i will have to feel like shit longer, but i can always take small amounts of kratom to deal with that if i have to and still work my way towards being less dependent than before right?

It's hard to decide cause i have everyone in my ear; parents and doctor and a few posters here saying to take the subs, my brother, some posters here, and most likely me, not wanting to take the subs, at least till i can see if i can do it without them and give it a shot for a few days.

 

[Mycophile]

suboxone will do nothing do address your alcohol addiction. suboxone is far more addictive than kratom, but at least you know its not full of poison like kratom has tested to be. i would get off of kratom and onto subs if thats the choice. The fda has put out studies showing alarmaing rates of toxic heavy metals in kratom.

I mean, maybe there are some in kratom, but either way it's not like im going to commit to quitting kratom forever.

That's concerning for sure, but i would guess that even with that shit in there that kratom is still far less harmful than alcohol.

I am still included to either taper or cold turkey kratom or ATTEMPT TO FIRST, before giving in to subs and then only giving in if i feel i have to.

Most people here seem to think that suboxone is stronger than kratom, or at least no weaker.

Plus, do you really believe everything the FDA says about kratom given all the corruption going on?

They also believe it's a very dangerous substance and are trying to ban it and believe that the deaths relating to it where people mixed it with other stuff or took ''krypton kratom'' which isn't even kratom at all, are legit kratom deaths.

I would say that anything the FDA says about kratom should be taken with a grain of salt considering that it is their intention to make it illegal. Though i would unfortunately guess that some of that shit sometimes is in kratom, how much of it and the harms we don't know, but yeah, if i cared as much about my health as i should i'd never take it again, but i also wouldn't drink ever again.

I'm not committing to not doing any of these drugs or drinking ''ever again''....i'm just gonna work towards a lengthy period of sobriety and take it from there.

 

[Mycophile]

It is possible to substitute anything with anything else, if it is the same class of drugs, but I do not think that putting people on buprenorphine for kratom is the way to go. It is increasing tolerance and asking for trouble. I do not think she would suggest methadone for kratom, but giving somebody 20mg methadone is like giving somebody 2mg Suboxone. It can work, but I would not go that way. She is more hurting than helping her patients if she is giving Suboxone for kratom. If I were to give somebody replacement for kratom it would be tramadol.



I do not think that it is sustainable and I would not stop all 3. Why not leave dexadrine and with clonazepam you could quit kratom and alcohol.



Lowering tolerance is good. Quitting alcohol and kratom would be better, as this substances are not medically prescribed and you are not held accountable during your use. That way it leads quicker to abuse and addiction. By the way you present I think that stabilizing on dexedrine and clonazepam would be best way to go. You gotta find a stable pattern with fewest substances in the mix. Otherwise you will run yourself into deeper and deeper holes.




I don't know, I guess. Reason is that in the USA there is no lower dosage than 2mg Suboxone and doctors will usually see that as the small dose for addiction. You will be, if Suboxone is prescribed, getting 2mg. Now, will she tell you to cut the strip? I don't know, but I believe she will see 2mg as good "low dose" for stabilization, and by giving you 2mg she will not have to go out of protocol. Producer of Suboxone does not advice strip to be cut.



No. Usually Suboxone is prescribed for addiction to stronger opioids. Like high dose (above 100mg daily ) hydrocodone, morphine, oxycodone or heroin. Usual doses of Suboxone are 8-16mg for the first few months, but they are based on each case. Tolerance and cravings are 2 biggest factors - higher the tolerance and cravings, higher the dose. If somebody presents with 300mg daily oxycodone addiction, process would be: first day on 8mg, second on 12mg, third 16mg, then stabilize for a month or so on 16mg and reduce to lowest dose that suppresses withdrawals and cravings. This days people are often maintained on 8mg daily, but 4mg is more than enough for most. It is rare that somebody will be induced by the doctor on dose below 4mg.



Yes. I have had a habit of 20+ grams of kratom daily and stopped it. Then later, I became dependent on morphine so I switched from 200mg morphine daily to buprenorphine. Nowadays I am tapering off of buprenorphine and I am down to 1mg. 1mg of sublingual buprenorphine is equivalent to about 40mg oral morphine. If you were to take 2 mg buprenorphine for 3 monthts, first you would get high for 2 weeks untill your tolerance would go up, and then you would adjust, but when the time for quitting comes you would be much worse off than with kratom.


Having said all that, I must emphasize that each life carries its own gross and subtle differences. I have given you my view based on my experience. Only you can decide which treatment you will accept. It is always wise to base your decision on doctors recommendation and if recommendation sounds odd - search another opinion.

But on the other hand, does the fact that she wants to give me a very quick suboxone detox as opposed to maintainence change your opinion on whether or not it is better to go with what she's suggesting than trying to get off kratom on my own?

Would a quick suboxoone detox still get me dependent on a harder drug than kratom?

My doctor says it won't, but my combination of pride and also my brother who knows me well suggest i just try to get off kratom without suboxone and see if i can do it while leaving suboxone on the table as a possible option.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

^ kratom comes from unregulted growing operations in asia and there is no quality control between that and the product you ingest. You can believe that kratom isn't full of toxic shit, just like people that do RC's belive that the chinese chemists put in the extra time and effort to use more difficult synthesis routes that don't employ toxic metals and then they take the time to purify everything and analyze it to make sure its clean.

The people in asia don't give two fucks about providing clean drugs to you. Whether the FDA is lying or not, if you think its worth the risk that there might be something in there, to get that kratom high, then continue. If you don't think the high is good enough to risk exposure to poison, then switch to subs which are more recreational and more addicting than kratom in my opinion.

 

[Mycophile]

^ kratom comes from unregulted growing operations in asia and there is no quality control between that and the product you ingest. You can believe that kratom isn't full of toxic shit, just like people that do RC's belive that the chinese chemists put in the extra time and effort to use more difficult synthesis routes that don't employ toxic metals and then they take the time to purify everything and analyze it to make sure its clean.

The people in asia don't give two fucks about providing clean drugs to you. Whether the FDA is lying or not, if you think its worth the risk that there might be something in there, to get that kratom high, then continue. If you don't think the high is good enough to risk exposure to poison, then switch to subs which are more recreational and more addicting than kratom in my opinion.

I think it is likely that there's shit in Kratom. It scares me and so I wish it weren't true but I realize that it probably is. How dangerous they are is anyone's guess but i'm sure they are very bad for you.

I don't however know that I can resist taking kratom, at least not for the rest of my life. I know i'll use it again AT SOME POINT although I am going to go without it as long as i can.

Let me ask you, do you use Kratom?

Did you used to but then quit?

And I mean, even though i'm sure there's terrible shit in there, we also know that there are people on here who have been taking it for like 15 years and had a clean bill of health, but that still doesn't mean that they won't experience something terrible down the line, but alcohol is also toxic so i don't know that either of us knows what is worse, severe alcohlism or heavy metals in kratom, but i guess that doesn't matter since both are bad.

That's also SUPER fucked up though, that the FDA knows that shit is in there, and instead of doing their job and doing quality control to ensure that we can at least of the availability of SOME kratom that is free of toxic metals, they will just try to make it illegal.

Why couldn't the FDA regulate Kratom and ensure it doesn't have that shit in it and why won't they do that?

I guess it's cause they are being pressured to make it illegal, which is messed up.

I wonder if making tea out of it might reduce the toxins, but maybe it wouldn't do much.


My goal is not to ''switch'' to anything. The only thing being offered to me is a very short term suboxone detox that is probably like a week or 2, and my plan is to see if i can get off kratom and then take naltrexone for a good long time so i can't take kratom, suboxone or drink or get any effect from any of them and stay clean as long as i can.


I don't think it's likely that i'll be able to quit kratom or drinking forever and even despite the risks i'd be lying to myself if i said i think i could, but the goal is to stop everything and be completely sober for as long as possible, and if i ever take kratom again or drink again, which is most likely a certainty, i still will do my best to ingest far less than i do now, but i'm not planning on messing up, i'm focussing on just getting sober and seeing how long i can be.

If someone could prove to me that i was going to seriously risk cancer or some other horrible disease or die early from the toxic metals in kratom then i'd like to believe i could bring myself to stop forever, but for now all i know is i'm gonna find any way possible to stop kratom, dexadrine and drinking and start taking naltrexone and be entirely sober for as long as possible.


I definitely will not switch over to suboxone for any length of time to the point where i'd get heavily dependent on it, and from many people's comments i feel that it would probably still be more dangerous and/or ruin my life more than kratom, even with the toxic metals in it.

I'm just gonna do my best to get off kratom without subs and get on naltrexone and be sober, or as a last resort take a very quick sub taper, but no way am i going to get on subs and take that stuff for any length of time and develop a worse opioid problem.

 

[Mycophile]

Ok, now I will be more direct.

As you are not committed to stop taking kratom than you can do what ever you decide because you will eventually return to this point. That is how addiction unfolds in most cases.

You are already planning your relapse so do what feels right for you. It seems that you have made up your mind and want approval of other people. There is nothing wrong with that, but I think you got plenty of reasons "why you should or should not take Suboxone" .

Do as you think is appropriate but the fact is that 2mg Suboxone is way stronger than regular 12 mg , let's say Red Thai Maeng Da, kratom. You will push your opioid tolerance with buprenorphine much more than kratom is capable. But, I speculate, buprenorphine will not change stimulating part of kratom effects. Those effects seem to be mediated by norepinephrine and maybe serotonin pathways. I do not know I just speculate.

To conclude, do as you think is best. It seems that you are in the begining part of poly substance addiction. I wish I am wrong on this one and that you will prove that I am wrong. But if your plan is to again use kratom in the future than I would say that Suboxone is a dangerous route to travel. It is strong opioid that is now used to stop all other opioids indefinitely. If you go on Suboxone you will brake the boundary between "weak" opioids and "strong" opioids. I fear that down the road you will up the stakes regarding opioids because of that. I will state once more - buprenorphine (Suboxone) is much stronger than kratom. 2 mg is potent as ~80mg oral morphine. Kratom can not compare opioid wise. But, buprenorphine does not have such euphoric effects and is less enjoyable than morphine, oxycodone or heroin. But you see what substances are in the talk when buprenorphine is discussed.
I wish you all the best. I do not judge and would not judge even if I knew all about your life. It is up to you as you will have to live through your actions. I think you got all answers that you could, and it is up to you to decide. Buprenorphine is the double edged sword. Good side of buprenorphine is that will leave you in contact with your doctor and you will be held accountable. Bad sides I already wrote about.

I wish you all the luck OP whatever you decide. I hope that you have insight into your addictive tendencies (I would even say addiction) and that you will not continue cycling - stopping and relapsing - becouse every time around it only gets harder.

Peace.

Well, now I found this response pretty upsetting to tell you the truth...especially cause you are one of the main people who has convinced me NOT to take bupe and it's a few other people like my doctor who are trying to convince me otherwise.

And what exactly do you mean by the bold?

Why should i be accountable if she convinces me to use a stronger drug that's a bad idea and that she put in my head?

Or are you being sarcastic?

But I'm not going to lie because you know this whole game and i know why you see me as planning my relapse and I'm not going to pretend that that isn't kind of the mindset i'm in but it's also kind of NOT.

Let me explain;

Like every addict who knows he needs to get clean, or most at least, part of me doesn't want to at all, but overall i know i need to.

i cannot pretend that i know how long i can do it, and i have a very hard time imagining i can do it forever, but both my social worker and doctor say i don't need to say ''forever'' and just start somewhere, and every time i have succeeded in taking really long breaks from any drug, whether kratom or weed or whatever, i did it by telling myself I WAS GOING TO USE IT AGAIN.

That way, when i'm abstaining and the voice comes into my head saying ''ok, but WHEN can we do this again?'' I'd tell myself ''someday you DEFNITELY can, just not today and not for as long as possible...'' delayed gratification, and it would allow me to go longer without slipping up, and by doing that i once made it a year without kratom and almost 3 years without weed and THAT WAS WITHOUT THE AID OF A DRUG BLOCKER LIKE THE ONE I'LL HAVE NOW.

If i tell myself i'm quitting forever I'M DONE, in the sense that i won't even make it a month sober. No way can i think like that and possibly succeed.

I don't want to quit forever, but i have to stop for as long as possible, and with naltrexone as an aid, i figure it should be easier than anytime before because all i need to do is keep taking the pills and then I CANNOT DRINK OR TAKE OPIATES.

I could even get the shots that block me for a whole month and then i can't use anything for a month, so that's why i want naltrexone, cause it takes the will out of the equation, so i can't see how my chances of success in AT LEAST ABSTAINING LONGER THAN IN THE PAST, cannot be better than before.

You can say all that you are saying, but truth is i am taking more steps to work on this problem than ever before by gooing to see an addictions doctor and social worker and BY MY OWN CHOICE take pills or a shot that will make it IMPOSSIBLE for me to get high so long as i continue.

I won't lie, as i said before, i really wanted ultra low dose naltrexone, as it allows you to take opiates or drink with reduced side effects and SUPPOSEDLY breaks the mental addiction mindset by making your highs less pleasurable so you no longer think like an addict.

It has worked in the sinclair method for people who take it before drinking; eventually they CAN still drink but don't want to.

Truth is i want to no longer have a desire to drink or do drugs, and no longer have the mind of an addict, so that i can choose to use or abstain if i want, but not have intense cravings and not think like an addict, and drugs like naltrexone, though more often ultra low dose naltrexone, which this doctor is dumb and refusing to give me, supposedly can break this addicts mind set.

So why is wanting to no longer think like an addict, but nevertheless, still thinking like one, making you think i am doomed forever to this cycle?

I am sure that SOME addicts and alcoholics quit 100 percent knowing for sure they never ever want to use again, but i would guess they are in the minority.

I think most are torn, knowing they have to quit but kind of don't want to, but they must KIND OF want to quit or they wouldn't even try.

At the very least, i am doing more than i've ever done in the past, and i'll have access to a drug blocker which can stop me from using drugs or drinking for as long as i continue to take it. I can even choose to go get one shot a month and with 12 a year i can't drink or use opiates for a year, and i may well do this.

I think i won't know how it feels to be sober till i have been for a while, and i think once i have been it will get easier.

I want to use drugs like naltrexone or ULDN or others that can break the pathways in the brain that make me think like an addict, and i don't think that people who REALLY want to remain addicts want that to happen.

So, you are calling me on my bullshit, and i get it, but at the same time, i would not be seeking out a drug that can block me from drinking or getting high did i not see a need to get my shit together, and it's taken a long time to get to this point.

I am not as ''serious'' as many would hope an addict to be if you are expecting them to be 100 percent sure they are ready to quit all drugs forever, but i'm a far cry from someone who doesn't know they need help and is unwilling to work on it.

I think time will prove you are underestimating me.

I mean, if you think i'm so screwed then why even tell me?

I have a hard time imagining or wanting a completely drug free life for as long as i live, but I would like to find a way to break my addicts mindset so i no longer have cravings for drugs and end up not taking them because i just don't care anymore.

Sounds impossible, but some of these drug blockers like ultra low dose naltrexone, which again, i can't seem to get prescribed, but i can make it from higher dose pills and give it a shot, which i probably will, can supposedly do this.

Nevertheless, there is no quick fix to sobriety, and no one will succeed in getting and staying clean without hard work as the factor.

Why is it nuts to not be able to commit to PERMANENT sobriety, and like the idea of having chemically induced forced-periods of abstinence based on a drug blocker, knowing that IF I WANT i can temporarily stop taking it and use again, and then go right back to it?

If i could be sure that i could take something that would forever make me NEVER want to take another drug again, then i would, but it's of course not that simple.

But i'll report back in a few months, and i know i'll have gone longer than i have in the past with fewer drugs, and once i have been sober a while hopefully i'll no longer be planning my next relapse.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

^ you asked if i used kratom. Yes i used it for two years daily. I began using it around the time my dissociative addiction was dying down. I some slight bladder issues begining (dissociaties damage the bladder). Kratom was the ONLY drug besides dissociatives that would bring about bladder pain at that time. Cocaine, heroin, amphetamines, alcohol, MDMA....no bladder pain. Kratom = bladder pain. Well it got a whole lot worse and now i can only eat a few different foods and my bladder has permanent damage.

Did kratom cause the bladder damage? probably not. It was the only drug out of dozens that would cause bladder pain for me though in the early stages though. I feel like that says something about its nastiness. It is know to cause liver damage i belive also. Now basically all drugs hurt my bladder because i kept going. now most foods do.

so thats my experience with kratom. The sheer amount of it that you have to ingest ensures that any toxins along for the ride are going into your body in large quantities.

As to the addiction and your concerns about using in the future, I will just describe my own experience. After all the damage drugs have done to my body. I still want to use cannabis. I tell myself that it will be OK. This is addiction. keep using cannabis until i get lung cancer or fuck something up at work and get fired, or get in an accident high and kill someone. The fun never ends with drugs.

You won't want to quite until the consequences become larger and larger for you. We all have to find our own rock bottom, over and over again. There are people that actually do get clean and live for decades without doing drugs anymore. It seems daunting, I don't know how they do it. They were far more addicted and have a shittier lot in life than we do, but they go clean somehow. The thing they tell you in recovery is just take it day by day. You are so focused on "one day i will use kratom again in the future" don't think about the future. Just focus on not using kratom (or whatever drug) today. You'll notice eventually that each day without the drug feels like a victory, then you might notice some improvements in your life or the way you feel, these things have to become more important to you to keep than the high of the drug, because you can't have both.

The other thing you need is a support system of some sort, because doing it alone is impossible...but thats only when you've had enough torture. besides the support system you need a passion in life besides drugs. playing music, a sport, an artistic pursuit, some academic pursuit. shit like that. drugs have to be replaced by something that makes you happy.

I'm only two weeks clean of all drugs, for the millionth time in life. Each time i felt more and more fed up and the rock bottoms just got worse and worse each time. Hopefully this time was enough, i mean after permanent organ damage i don't know what comes next other than death.

 

[Mycophile]

I think that we got lost in translation. English is not my native language so it is a problem when I have to write about something delicate.

Being accountable means that you will not be using drugs that are not prescribed and that you will be in contact with your medical team constantly. If you already are constantly working with medical team and you are really honest with them then you can forget bold part. I am not being sarcastic. There are people who would benefit if they were to go on buprenorphine and stop using all other drugs even though buprenorphine would raise their opioid tolerance. I am not pro buprenorphine for kratom, but in some cases it could help. You could always take 2mg and brake/cut it in 4 pieces and take 0.5 mg Suboxone daily.

But there is a danger lurking in there - will you be able to keep it that low? If you start taking higher doses you will get the taste for the stronger μ-opioid receptors agonists and that could open very big Pandora's box which could lead to disaster. Buprenorphine could lead you to stronger opioids like methadone, morphine, oxycodone...and that would be my biggest concern.

I am not underestimating you. Even if you were to cycle through addiction I am the last person who would look upon you. I was addicted to amphetamines and opioids. I ended up in the psych ward because of stimulant induced psychosis and am on opioid maintenance with buprenorphine because I was addicted to morphine. I am just trying to figure out what is the best way to answer really complicated issue off which environmental factors I am unaware and at the same time it is somebody's life at stake. So forgive me if I try to cover all the bases.

Having said all that what would I recommend? First, it seems that you are eager to try to stop kratom, alcohol and dexedrine for a while. In that case I would suggest:

1.) Stop kratom, alcohol and dexedrine for 2 weeks.
2.) Take naltrexone in normal dose. First take it in pill form and then if you can endure take the shot.
3.) Start some kind of psychotherapy for addiction and other problems. Search the therapy that is intended to solve your core problems that lead you to using.
4.) If it becomes unbearable reevaluate your state and change medications accordingly.
5.) Keep going in the trajectory that you seem to be going - solving your core issues and reducing amount of substances you use.

I am from central Europe, and I guess you are from USA. There is a big difference in mentality of our states. In my country you can not get dexedrine or any other stimulant except Concerta (methylphenidate). Pain medication is reserved only for terminally ill patients, operations and severe acute pain (like broken arm or leg). I am bringing that up because you have to be aware that my day to day experience is very different than your and so are my options compared to yours.

I admire your resolve and commitment to reduce or potentially even quit using some substances. I am trying to help but you present a difficult multi factor problem to the table. It is not one substance and that makes it very difficult. The main thing I would have to advise you is to try to resolve your core problems that are driving you to such painful states. That will make the difference, not some substance. Whatever substance you take for dealing with addiction it is only for stabilization. The real work is working on your issues, and when you are stable physically then you can focus on your emotional state and what is disrupting it.

I hope that I did not cause you too much needles pain or stress as that was not my intention. Honestly I can not answer you should you or should you not take buprenorphine. But, for me it seems that at this stage risks outweighs possible benefits. As I said - would you be fine if your doctor said that she wants you on low dose of methadone? Because if you take 20mg of methadone daily than that is like taking 2mg buprenorphine daily (correct equivalents are unknown but this is about right). Further, if you were to take methadone you would stop drinking, as drinking would lead you to OD and death. Bupernorphine and methadone are obviously different drugs with different modes of action but they are both potent opioids that will deter you from drinking. Are you really in that phase were you need the help of that kind of drugs? I believe you are not and the fact you are trying to stop it before all becomes full blown addiction is something I applaud!

I hope that my message is more clear now. No, I do not underestimate you. I am not being sarcastic. I am not patronizing. I am just trying my best to give you some answers from which you can choose what suits you best. In the end it is all up to you. But when I respond I have to be very cautious because I do not want give some suggestion that could lead you to even worse state than you are in now. I want my suggestions to be productive so you are better off after reading my post.

I see that you are sincere in your struggle. All people have not two, but multiple opposing personalities, each one with its own goals. It is our job to align our inner personalities so they work together for common good. It is not problem just for substance abusing person, it is problem for all people. Be honest, as you are, and that will lead you to the best outcome. I hope that you will find your peace sooner than later.

If you already did not I advise you to listen to this 3 videos. They could be helpful.

Thanks I'll look at the video.

What country are you from exactly?

I actually teach English as a Second Language so dealing with language barriers is my job and a lot gets lost in translation but you can already write FAR better than any of my students who are level 3 out of 4 in our program, so in case you were wondering about the level of your skill of writing, which you didn't actually ask, you are very good and would have graduated out of the program i teach haha.

I can see that the drug laws being different in your country may change your perspective, as i can already tell you that your country sounds like it has stricter laws than the U.S. but the U.S. still has FAR stricter laws than i like. I believe ALL SUBSTANCES should be legal, even Fentanyl, heroin, meth, etc for an adult of sound mind to take if they are not operating a motor vehicle, and that no one should ever have to go to a doctor to get anything and that doctors should actually just serve as ''health advisors'' for us, incapable of stopping us from taking what we want and realizing that if we are going to use a drug that they should just help use their medical knowledge to help us use whatever was want in the safest way possible, since after all, even the most dangerous substances like fentanyl can be used in safer vs more dangerous ways.

You may not agree with me and that's fine, but i have always had HUGE problems with the fact that anyone can control what we put in our bodies, and that would remain true even if i never used any substances again in my life.

But anyway, as for suboxone, i have already told my doctor that i am going to try my best NOT to take it and only give in if i have tried for at least several days to get off kratom and can't deal with it, and even then i do not see myself taking it as i think suboxone is stronger than kratom and it would probably make things worse and at best it would be not better than a kratom taper.

I am going to start attempting to go without all drugs, mainly kratom, alcohol and dexadrine and also to a lesser extent phenibut which i don't use often, starting the day after tomorrow, thursday, which is the day after christmas, so of course today and tomorrow i'm trying to have as much fun as i can before i stop hahaha.

Fitting i guess that despite not being a christian my last day of drug use for a long time is christmas.

I am in agreement with you on most of what i plan to do which is the following;

1--On Thursday stop kratom, dexadrine and drinking cold turkey and since i have 11 days off work just feel like shit and use my PRESCRIBED klonopin to help a bit with withdrawals (Klonopin is NOT fun or recreational for me and i only use it for anxiety so i'm not quitting that )

2--I hope i will not slip up at all with the kratom or dexadrine. It just so happens that i am running out of my dexdrine right now, so i will attempt not to refill it so i can't take it. I am prescribed it, but i don't really need it and truly just use it to get high. So then it's only the kratom that i have around, well also alcohol of course, that i'll be attempting not to take at all.

But if I DO happen to slip up and take any kratom and/or dexadrine i will take the smallest doses possible, as infrequently and spread out as possible, and it is of course only a matter of time before i am no longer PHYSICALLY dependent on either or having acute withdrawal from either. PAWS is a possibility that i'm unfortunately prepared may happen, but there's nothing to do for that other than taking suboxone i don't think and i'm not doing that unless i have to.

3--I am almost positive i will NOT give in to taking suboxone. If i did i think it would be a bad idea, but i'd let my doctor taper me properly, but i think there's virtually no chance i will do that.

4--Once i know i am not dependent on kratom anymore, and i am not sure how i'll no for sure other than feeling like the withdrawal is over, but that might be harder than usual cause i'm also going to be in dexadrine withdrawal which can feel similar, so i'll have to talk to my doctor about that, i will start taking oral naltrexone. i might get the shot but i think i will prefer the control i'll have with oral naltrexone to stop if i want, even though i am dead set on AT LEAST STARING WITH A FULL 31 DAYS/1 MONTH SOBER...and then go for more after that.

5--I already have an addictions counselor/social worker who is cool and not a hypocrite cause he's a former addict, and this doctor. Neither is true psychotherapy, and i have had lots of that before, so i'd like more, but for now i can't afford that AND the social worker and doctor so that will have to wait till the future, but i agree that addressing core issues is essential. Problem is i also have generalized and social anxiety, depression and OCD, and of course some of what i do is self medicating, especially kratom which helps better than almost any other medication including my prescribe klonopin for my problems, but it and the other drugs interfere in various ways that make me non-productive and less healthy and inactive so i need to stop for as long as possible.

6--I have no plan to quit forever, and i doubt that i will, and that has never been my plan, but at the same time i need to go as long as possible and get my health and life circumstances in order and it's not possible while using all this stuff, so my goal is just to go as long as i can and take it day by day, week by week, month by month.

It's always hard cause unhappiness is one of the core issues that causes me and many people to use so many substances, and while i feel we should all be LEGALLY allowed to use whatever we want, very often, but NOT ALWAYS, but in my case, it eventually leads to making a lot of our problems worse.

I am REALLY pissed off that certain substances I DO think can help that i want to take are either illegal or harder to get, like ibogaine, ayahuasca, DMT, ketamine, psilocybin mushroooms, and the NON-mind altering drug i have been looking for and will continue to try to find or even make on my own, which is just ultra low dose naltrexone.

I think that our psychiatric system is not willing enough to experiment not only with these other substances and offer psychedelic therapy, but other less conventional methods that are possible but harder to find, like wildnerness retreats, transcranial magnetic stimualtion which IS around but VERY expensive, and other things like that, but they can be found if one looks harder or has the money, or in the case of some substances, is willing to break laws.

But anyway, i know this will suck but i'll go as long as i can without drugs and i'm pretty sure i'll make it AT LEAST a few months, at which point i will feel in better physical shape and can more easily asses what i want.

I've had a lot of sober points in my life, usually most of them i was not COMPLETELY 100 percent sober, like i'd SOMETIMES, like one day a week get buzzed or drunk on alcohol, but other than that i had an 11 month break from kratom just cause i knew i needed to stop, and i used to smoke weed a lot, though now i barely ever do, but back when i was REALLY into it i made myself go 988 days without just because i thought i needed to quit. The goal was to NEVER smoke again, but hey, i made it almost 1,000 days.

So...i am capable of sobriety, though it's been a very long time since i have gone a month or more with ZERO alcohol, and this period will probably be tougher than the past cause i have never been this bad with all these substances at once, but i'll make a few months at least i am sure and we'll see what happens, i am just concerned with how depressed i might become.

But...depression after stopping is just usually something unavoidable and it gets better over time, and i plan to get back into regular exercise to help me feel better, and eventually i'll be sober long enough that i'll start to feel physically and mentally better, and then maybe i won't want to use anything again, but we'll just have to see.

Thanks for the encouragement though.

 

[Mycophile]

^ you asked if i used kratom. Yes i used it for two years daily. I began using it around the time my dissociative addiction was dying down. I some slight bladder issues begining (dissociaties damage the bladder). Kratom was the ONLY drug besides dissociatives that would bring about bladder pain at that time. Cocaine, heroin, amphetamines, alcohol, MDMA....no bladder pain. Kratom = bladder pain. Well it got a whole lot worse and now i can only eat a few different foods and my bladder has permanent damage.

Did kratom cause the bladder damage? probably not. It was the only drug out of dozens that would cause bladder pain for me though in the early stages though. I feel like that says something about its nastiness. It is know to cause liver damage i belive also. Now basically all drugs hurt my bladder because i kept going. now most foods do.

so thats my experience with kratom. The sheer amount of it that you have to ingest ensures that any toxins along for the ride are going into your body in large quantities.

As to the addiction and your concerns about using in the future, I will just describe my own experience. After all the damage drugs have done to my body. I still want to use cannabis. I tell myself that it will be OK. This is addiction. keep using cannabis until i get lung cancer or fuck something up at work and get fired, or get in an accident high and kill someone. The fun never ends with drugs.

You won't want to quite until the consequences become larger and larger for you. We all have to find our own rock bottom, over and over again. There are people that actually do get clean and live for decades without doing drugs anymore. It seems daunting, I don't know how they do it. They were far more addicted and have a shittier lot in life than we do, but they go clean somehow. The thing they tell you in recovery is just take it day by day. You are so focused on "one day i will use kratom again in the future" don't think about the future. Just focus on not using kratom (or whatever drug) today. You'll notice eventually that each day without the drug feels like a victory, then you might notice some improvements in your life or the way you feel, these things have to become more important to you to keep than the high of the drug, because you can't have both.

The other thing you need is a support system of some sort, because doing it alone is impossible...but thats only when you've had enough torture. besides the support system you need a passion in life besides drugs. playing music, a sport, an artistic pursuit, some academic pursuit. shit like that. drugs have to be replaced by something that makes you happy.

I'm only two weeks clean of all drugs, for the millionth time in life. Each time i felt more and more fed up and the rock bottoms just got worse and worse each time. Hopefully this time was enough, i mean after permanent organ damage i don't know what comes next other than death.

Damn I am really very very sorry for your situation in terms of what has happened to you with the kratom and that sucks.

Well, i would admit that them finding that shit in kratom SHOULD SCARE ME AWAY from ever using it again, but i guess i'm either not scared enough/and or don't like my life enough to let it stop me.

I am, however, stopping kratom, drinking and all drugs for as long as possible, i mean, probably not forever but at least STARTING with a few months, for my own reasons, some health related and some life style and mental health related, though i still think the alcohol is the more dangerous drug i do than the kratom.

I hope you are not offended that despite those studies, i am not 100 percent convinced your problem is from kratom, but i certainly realize that it could be.

You did a lot of drugs, one of which, ketamine, or at least you didn't say ketamine but you said dissacotaives so i assume you did, causes bladder issues often, and correlation doesn't equal causation so you could notice problems caused by something else while using kratom that wasn't cause by kratom, and there's just so many random variables it's very hard to know what caused your problems, but i am very sorry you have them.

If more people i knew had that happen maybe i'd be scared away from kratom, but still, i'm taking an extended break from everything.

Only partially off topic, but i have never seen any studies prove that weed causes lung cancer like cigarettes, but even if it does, cause smoking anything is unhealhty, why not vape or eat your weed?

I am FAIRLY certain that vaping weed removes enough toxins, and certainly eating it, that neither is a risk of any kind of cancer, and about as safe as it gets, so long as the weed also is grown without pesiticides.

I agree that everything needs to be day by day for me.

All i'm doing is stopping for as long as i can, with goals in mind like 1 month, 2, etc.

I know once i've been clean a while i'll have a better perspective.

I do have a good support system and i do have passions and pursuits which i think will help me be happier and make it easier to be sober once i get back to focussing on them.

Congratulations on your 2 weeks clean cause i know how much it sucks, and i hope you are also able to find a way to improve your daily mood and health issues in your pursuit towards happiness.

I'm sure it won't usually be QUITE as bad as it is right now, or at least for me the beginning of any periods of sobriety that i've ever had are the worst.

Definitely i think HARD REGULAR exercise is one of the best things to help with drug problems and getting over them, especially cause your body is working better than when using so you can feel yourself becoming more and more capable of doing more execise than before and getting stronger and that plus the endorphins gives you a reward so i'd suggest that.

Good luck.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Damn I am really very very sorry for your situation in terms of what has happened to you with the kratom and that sucks.

Well, i would admit that them finding that shit in kratom SHOULD SCARE ME AWAY from ever using it again, but i guess i'm either not scared enough/and or don't like my life enough to let it stop me.

I am, however, stopping kratom, drinking and all drugs for as long as possible, i mean, probably not forever but at least STARTING with a few months, for my own reasons, some health related and some life style and mental health related, though i still think the alcohol is the more dangerous drug i do than the kratom.

I hope you are not offended that despite those studies, i am not 100 percent convinced your problem is from kratom, but i certainly realize that it could be.

You did a lot of drugs, one of which, ketamine, or at least you didn't say ketamine but you said dissacotaives so i assume you did, causes bladder issues often, and correlation doesn't equal causation so you could notice problems caused by something else while using kratom that wasn't cause by kratom, and there's just so many random variables it's very hard to know what caused your problems, but i am very sorry you have them.

If more people i knew had that happen maybe i'd be scared away from kratom, but still, i'm taking an extended break from everything.

Only partially off topic, but i have never seen any studies prove that weed causes lung cancer like cigarettes, but even if it does, cause smoking anything is unhealhty, why not vape or eat your weed?

I am FAIRLY certain that vaping weed removes enough toxins, and certainly eating it, that neither is a risk of any kind of cancer, and about as safe as it gets, so long as the weed also is grown without pesiticides.

first, my original post stated that kratom did not cause my bladder damage. it was however th ONLY drug besidees dissociatives that caused pain AFTER the damage was initiated by the dissociatevses.

second. you are in some serious denial if you think smoking and vaping weed does not cause lung cancer. There are thousands of scientific studies proving this in regard to smoking. A smimple google search in google scholar will show you this.

vaping is a new area of reasearch. And spent about ten minutes in google scholar and could not find a study directly linking vaping cannabis to lung cancer. There are studies showing vaping E-cigs casuese lung and bladder cancer (it was a japanese scientist i belive). I did find two studies: one showing the vaping the carriers used in vaping releases carbonyl compounds. Then there are tons of studies showing that verious carbonyl compounds are cancer causing. These compounds are highly reactive I would guess the mechanism is alkylation of DNA for their carcinogenicity but i haven't read in depth on that.

putting hot vapor into your lungs full of pyrolized reactive chemicals (vaping) is very likely to cause cancer and there are probably studies linking it directly to vaping cannabis products if you dig further.

sources:

Cannabis use and risk of lung cancer: a case–control study

The aim of the present study was to determine the risk of lung cancer associated with cannabis smoking. A case–control study of lung cancer in adults ≤55 yrs of age was conducted in eight district health boards in New Zealand. Cases were identified from the New Zealand Cancer Registry and...

erj.ersjournals.com

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2016.0337

Cancer risk from gaseous carbonyl compounds in indoor environment generated from household coal combustion in Xuanwei, China - Environmental Science and Pollution Research

Airborne carbonyls were characterized from emitted indoor coal combustion. Samples were collected in Xuanwei (Yunnan Province), a region in China with a high rate of lung cancer. Eleven of 19 types of samples (58%) demonstrated formaldehyde concentrations higher than the World Health...

link.springer.com

 

[Mycophile]

first, my original post stated that kratom did not cause my bladder damage. it was however th ONLY drug besidees dissociatives that caused pain AFTER the damage was initiated by the dissociatevses.

second. you are in some serious denial if you think smoking and vaping weed does not cause lung cancer. There are thousands of scientific studies proving this in regard to smoking. A smimple google search in google scholar will show you this.

vaping is a new area of reasearch. And spent about ten minutes in google scholar and could not find a study directly linking vaping cannabis to lung cancer. There are studies showing vaping E-cigs casuese lung and bladder cancer (it was a japanese scientist i belive). I did find two studies: one showing the vaping the carriers used in vaping releases carbonyl compounds. Then there are tons of studies showing that verious carbonyl compounds are cancer causing. These compounds are highly reactive I would guess the mechanism is alkylation of DNA for their carcinogenicity but i haven't read in depth on that.

putting hot vapor into your lungs full of pyrolized reactive chemicals (vaping) is very likely to cause cancer and there are probably studies linking it directly to vaping cannabis products if you dig further.

sources:

Cannabis use and risk of lung cancer: a case–control study

The aim of the present study was to determine the risk of lung cancer associated with cannabis smoking. A case–control study of lung cancer in adults ≤55 yrs of age was conducted in eight district health boards in New Zealand. Cases were identified from the New Zealand Cancer Registry and...

erj.ersjournals.com

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2016.0337

Cancer risk from gaseous carbonyl compounds in indoor environment generated from household coal combustion in Xuanwei, China - Environmental Science and Pollution Research

Airborne carbonyls were characterized from emitted indoor coal combustion. Samples were collected in Xuanwei (Yunnan Province), a region in China with a high rate of lung cancer. Eleven of 19 types of samples (58%) demonstrated formaldehyde concentrations higher than the World Health...

link.springer.com

Again, we don't know if kratom caused your problems, and maybe they did, and i'm sorry if they did.

And as far as weed, i don't believe VAPING THC, NOT nicotine, does cause cancer.

i'm not in denial, i just don't believe it does.

I could read those studies, and maybe i will, but i have been feeling like shit now so i'll read them another time.

I think vaping tobacco can, and i think smoking weed MIGHT, but vaping weed....seems benign to me, and then you can always eat it if you want, and then there's DEFINITELY no risk of cancer.

At the very least, the risk of cancer from weed in any form, most of all vaping, is not REMOTELY close to that of tobacco.

I dont' want to get into a debate about it, and as an asthmatic trust me I KNOW that smoking it is TERRIBLE for my lungs, but once i switched to vaping i no longer coughed or got asthma, but cancer is a different question.

Maybe it might, but i don't believe it has been proven by a long shot.

Lets end the discussion now, and i wish you the best of luck in your situation.

I'm about to do my own period of sobriety, and it has always had its' challenges, but unfortunately for you you have already developed these issues and i'm sorry for that.

If you can exercise without too much discomfort that is literally the best recommendation i have.

I mean, every drug has side effects, i'm sure even EATING weed as SOME kind of problem, but weed edibles are about the most benign drug there is, and i'd say vaping weed at VERY low temperatures is about as benign a drug there is ASIDE from eating it, but smoking it certainly is bad for the lungs.

Most drugs I've used in my life have had at least SOME negative side effects too, from my prescribed meds to coffee.

It's a true fact that any and every substance and even foods have negative, and often positive and neutral effects at times, but when one enters into the world of ANY kind of drug one does indeed enter into the world of side effects, and how bad they are is up to so many personal factors we can't begin to say.

My great grandmother was a cigarette smoker, alcoholic and valium addict who lived to the age of 93 and never got cancer, and i know a guy who was SOOO super clean living he WOULDN'T EAT FRUIT cause he thought it had too many carbs, ZERO drugs EVER...wouldn't even take Advil...lived off vegtables, grains, fish and deer meat and was a power lifter, rodeo champion and SERIOUS athlete, hunter, chiropractor and MMA fighter, and got cancer and died in about a month at the age of 55.

Life is fucking random and unfair. Of course, we have to recognize those are unusual examples and the better guess is that if you behave like my great grandmother you die early and if you behave like my friend you live long, but that comparison shoes the brutal chaos of life.

Good luck man, it ain't easy i know.