fairnymph
Ex-Bluelighter
But that’s too insoluble for many legitimate purposes. Which is likely while they chose something in the middle. The sulphate is substantially more stable than the other salts, however, so maybe we’re just reaching.
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BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Opioids Morphine Sulphate to Morphine Hydrochloride
- Thread starter Gaz_hmmmm
- Start date
Gaz_hmmmm
Bluelighter
Oh right. Is it also more stable than the hydrochloride?
fairnymph
Ex-Bluelighter
Acetic acid is super easy to get but acetic anhydride is generally quite difficult.
fairnymph
Ex-Bluelighter
Yes, especially in solution.
Gaz_hmmmm
Bluelighter
I've read that glacial acetic acid can be used to make 6-MAM and that's what the Mexican cartel's were using to make black tar Heroin but then I've also read that the Mexican cartel's use acetic anhydride but cause of moisture or something in the process it becomes glacial acetic acid and as mentioned only acetylates the 6 position making 6-MAM and not 3,6-diacetylmorphine
Is that true, that glacial acetic acid can be used instead of acetic anhydride?
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fairnymph
Ex-Bluelighter
I’m not convinced GAA can be used to make heroin. My understanding is that it’s not strong enough.
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Gaz_hmmmm
Bluelighter
I know GAA isn't strong enough to acetylate both the 3 and 6 position's making diacetylmorphine but I have read sources before that have said it'll acetylate the 6 position creating 6-MAM only.
fairnymph
Ex-Bluelighter
Yes, that’s true.
4DQSAR
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Stability is certainly something manufacturers would seek. Morphine sulphate solution (with sodium bisulfite added as a preservative) has a long shelf-life. If even a small amount of morphine is oxidized (or whatever), the product doesn't conform to the livery i.e. a 30mg/mL ampoule which only contains 28mg of MS would not conform. It's likely that when you go back so far, the legislation governing contents matching livery weren't as strict.
I think there were a few other morphine salts that used to be common. Tartrate, acetate, phosphate and so forth.
With so many, maybe it was decided that since the MW of each varies slightly, the amount of morphine freebase would varey between salts and someone decided that could result in patients getting slightly different doses?
Thare are a couple of other reasons byond the decision to choose a salt with lower solubility.
I think there were a few other morphine salts that used to be common. Tartrate, acetate, phosphate and so forth.
With so many, maybe it was decided that since the MW of each varies slightly, the amount of morphine freebase would varey between salts and someone decided that could result in patients getting slightly different doses?
Thare are a couple of other reasons byond the decision to choose a salt with lower solubility.
HeadphonesandLSD
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This is probably the main reason in addition to it being less trouble over all when homebaking. One of my favorite things about morphine was the histamine release and a lot of people associate that itchy feeling you get with the product being good. Heard so many wives tales about one type of oxycodone pill being better than the other just because people would sometimes get lucky and get a histamine release despite the actual active being exactly the same (e.g. Combination tablets with Tylenol being better feeling that what they got from the old school OCs that had already had the oxycodone extracted (they weren't around to witness it)).
One of the things I regret the most about my opioid days was never getting to try pure 6-MAM by itself. I swear if I had the means I would make some. I almost did it once but I didn't want to risk wasting my limited supply of morphine capsules.
Outside of stability there is also the cost factor for the legal outlets. Only having 1cc being able to hold 60mg or so is much safer in a medical setting. Less risk of mistakes and they can charge more for the same amount of material (more solution=larger bags/bottles). I'm sure the whole preventing it from being diverted (or less desirable) for conversion to more fun is part of it too. In fact, if I bet you look around you may find the WHO requires it be in a sulphate solution.
I do know a bunch of different formulations of morphine were on the market and sold OTC wayyyy back in the day because my Great Grandfather was addicted to it back when it was still legal. He had a big collection of 'snake oil' bottles that contained various formulations of morphine and cocaine (sometimes in the same cure all). In time he moved on to buying from a pharmacist once he got further along in his addiction and I heard he stocked up when the laws were about to change. No idea how much he had laying around but I know he was forced to kick the habit sometime between WW1 and the middle of the Great Depression. I think he mostly kicked due to the economy going down the tubes though and not the inability to continue buying it. As a lot of pharmacists were still supplying by writing prescriptions for many decades after it was declared illegal.
He also bought a lot of miracle water from a local spring and paid big bucks to have it bottled and delivered to his house. He'd regularly ride his horse and wagon to the spring many miles away and later go by car once he bought one in the late 20s. He was pretty wealthy and into all sorts of things I probably shouldn't talk about here. The man hated Revenuers.
4DQSAR
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As I mentioned, if the variety of salts was enough to make it difficult for doctors tk now how much actual morphine freebase is in a given quantity of various salts, they would surely look at mistakes, especially, as I noted, when solutions were actually made up by medical professionals.
It has to be said that for someone with no tolerance, 60mg would still be a massive dose. But likely not a fatal dose.
But if the addition of a buffer will allow for >100mg/mL, isn't that enough for most users?
That said, in the UK we have 100mg/mL dry amps of diamorphine. Just powder to which 1mL of dH2O is added. I've never actually seen one, but I've come across the 30mg dry amps and when snorted... it's pretty active.
HeadphonesandLSD
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The issue isn't so much doctors but the nurses. Consider shipping a bunch of this stuff to a third world country for some disaster then expecting nurses that have barely been trained to administer it. Plus you also have those times when they're sadly having to give it to children. I was just saying if you look into what the WHO requires you might find an answer.
Plus it has been a long while since I've been in the hospital but I think these days if they need something stronger than morphine they just go straight for the fent. I feel like morphine is kind of being phased out in hospital settings here these days as well. But that's speculation of course. It just seems to me that hanging a bag with a lot of fluid in it to run over night and give out doses on a timer is easier for staff and less prone to making a fatal mistake. I'm sure the majority of morphine being used in a hospital setting is being dosed out that way.
My junkie mind sees it whenever I visit people in the hospital and the old wheels start turning again. I'd never swipe someone else's bag of course. But if I wake up in a hospital my first thought is going to be escape and you can be sure if they've got me on a morphine drip it's coming home with me when I sneak out. That or I'm hacking the machine (most likely just remembering the code if they type it in front of me) to increase my fun. But typically with my luck even if I were dying they wouldn't give me a taste of the good stuff.
I've heard of this before. I think it's still very rarely used here but I've never met anyone that personally got any. From what I've seen here for IV they typically use morphine, hydromorphone or fent. these days. Out of those the last two seem to be the most common unless they're dealing with a cancer patient.
Survival0200
Bluelighter
In Europe morphine sulphate pentahydrate is quite common. That's what's in e.g. Oramorph. 20 mg of that stuff responds 15 mg morphine base.
4DQSAR
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I was under the impression that morphine isn't classed as a 'life saving' drug and it is the list of UNODC controlled drugs. So would a 'barely trained' nurse adminster morphine? If that child then needs surgery, opiates in the patient's system might make the calculations anethnetists use rather more tricky.
On a related note, the British Army now gives each squaddie buccal fentanyl. No needles involved, easier to self-administer and it's short duration means if surgey is required, it doesn't mess with calculations.
I don't think anhydrous morphine sulphate is common. If memory serves it's either the dihydrate ot the pentahydrate - but that's from memory.
On a related note, the British Army now gives each squaddie buccal fentanyl. No needles involved, easier to self-administer and it's short duration means if surgey is required, it doesn't mess with calculations.
I don't think anhydrous morphine sulphate is common. If memory serves it's either the dihydrate ot the pentahydrate - but that's from memory.
Gaz_hmmmm
Bluelighter
Did you's keep your Great-Grandad's medicine bottles? Cause they might be worth a bit now!
What's the miracle water he was buying? Was it just natural spring water?
If you look at this link https://www.druglibrary.net/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/CU13.html a lot of doctor's in multiple state's, North and South, continued to supply addicts with injectable morphine even in to the 1970's!
What/who are Revenuers?
We also have 500mg/1ml dry amps of diamorphine in the UK.
4DQSAR
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Not any more, according to the latest BNF. I started to mention the holiest of holies - the never-seen but much admired 500mg dry-amps, but they aren't listed any more.
Why there was a 500mg ampoule for so long is a bit of a mystery. If someone REQUIRES such a large amount of analgesia, I imagine only an anethnetist would prescribe it and fentanyl has a much larger TI.
You won't find all of the forms of fentanyl in the BNF. there is a special veraion of the BNF only available to anethnetists. They can't prescribe ANYTHING but they can prescribe some things only used in theatre. Phenoperidine used to be one of them (just as an example).
HeadphonesandLSD
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I have a few but most have been swiped or broken over the years. Or the labels are faded. That man saved everything. He filled up 3 houses and a bunch of barns with crap so a lot of it got tossed in the trash after he died to make room for other people's projects and junk. We still have a ton of his junk though. If I root through it perhaps I might find something worthwhile but most of it is stored in places where you have to worry about animals.
It was some local spring that claimed if you drank their water you would live forever or it would cure whatever problems you had. They claimed it did everything from re-growing hair to curing cancer and getting your dick hard. People came from miles and miles around to draw water off that spring. You could come and fill up your jugs for free but if you wanted it delivered they charged you a fee. The Government owns the land now and they put in a dam so now it's at the bottom of a lake.
The tax man. Imagine an IRS agent but they just deal in alcohol. They would come on to private property hunting for moonshine stills and the locals would shoot at them. That's how the name got started but by the time my Great-Grandfather was an old man all the old timers used that as a word to refer to any Government agent sticking their nose where it didn't belong.
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4DQSAR
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BNF is only available in the UK
The NICE British National Formulary (BNF) site is only available to users in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)
Until recently there were also a VERY strange format. 5mg 'jacks' i.e. little while compressed powder pills. Long ago there were used to make injectable solutions but a few years ago I knew someone who was given them to be consumed sublingually as part of there HAT for addiction.
I don't know exactly what happened but they were on a huge dose of methadone (160 or 180mg/day) and I heard they had suffered a heart-attack and were in hospital. A few days later they suffered a second heart-attack and died.
I don't think there was in inquest but it does make me wonder if the cardiotoxicity of the methadone they had only been prescribed for a couple of weeks that killed them. But their habit was just too large for buprenorphine to be an opion and in the UK, unless one can afford to see a private consultant who will prescribe something else, methadone is all there is.
I don't wanna break the synthesis rule but I guess there is no harm in telling you that to my knowledge that alone won't work, at least not for quantitative yields.