More Grand Theft Auto controversy

[hashish2020]

I don't play video games, so I can't give an informed opinion on GTA.

Converstion over.

 

[hashish2020]

I can't believe they folded and are taking it out.

Shit, do people understand many gangs are based on this curious social construct called RACE.

 

[Psychadelic_Paisly]

And MAYBE, those people involved in street gangs and such can see how fucken pathetic they are and can see how much they are damaging the image of their ethnicity and stop acting like such a bunch of fuckwits.

We can only hope

far less racist then these fucken whitebread PC motherfuckers in White Suburban towns that blabber on about hwo fucken open-minded and non-prejudice they are and they are normally the most racist ones of the lot.

:D
I like this kid! minus the overally aggressive stance....but hey. some good points

 

[Mariposa]

Converstion over.

Umm, I think I established effectively that I had something valuable to say with reference to the issue at hand despite the fact that I am completely uninterested in video games.

The issues here are racism and bigotry; not proficiency with GTA.

Come up with something better than that, and please learn to spell the word 'conversation.' You could have picked something better than some sentence fragment as your sole post in this thread.

 

[Harry@Piekarnia]

Haven't tried the latest GTA but I can say from experience that the local lemming population has never really recovered from my addiction to that game....

 

[Psychadelic_Paisly]

^^^^exactly

 

[Morrison's Lament]

I'd just like to add, at the point where you are told "kill all the Haitians" - you are being swarmed by about 50 Haitian gangmembers trying to kill you. There is not an unarmed person in sight!

If I was being swarmed by 50 armed Hassidic Jews I wouldn't find it unreasonable for my partner to scream: "DEAR GOD! WE HAVE TO KILL ALL THESE JEWS!" - that doesn't make him or me a nazi.

--- G.

 

[Brian Oblivion]

I think that this is a much slipperier slope than anyone realizes.

What makes us different today from our cousins in Rome at the Coliseum? How do we differ from the people who supported the ideologies of Hitler? Why is it that Apartheid is no longer practiced?

Has there been some natural change that has occurred which makes us better today then them? No. There's no evolutionary change that has occurred in our species. We have the exact same stone age brains that our Homo sapien ancestors did who lived in caves and hunted in the plains. What changed is our culture (i.e., our collective "software").

It would not take a long time for our cultures to regress back to the Coliseum (we still have the wiring). We were completely capable of it then, and we are still capable of doing it again now. I'm not talking about this occurring "all of a sudden." I'm talking about a slow progression taking place over several generations. The seeds are here today in this new acceptance of simulated violence against others.

In ten years, we have gone from the game "Doom" to killing innocents on the street (with this Road Rage game). Given the progression, it isn't going to take much longer (another 10 years?) before there is nothing that can be done in a simulation which will exceed the last generation of violent games. No simulation will provide the "extra" dopamine rush to compete with the previous generation. Then what? Where does it go after that?

Take porn, for example, over the past 20 years. Simulated rape is now common place in porn. Women are choked, strangled, gagged and shown being forced in deceptions of brutal sex acts. Some of this has even made its way into common language. Why does the term "bitch slap" even exist?

Other changes come to mind where the thinking makes it palatable to feel "OK" about creating victims. Hashish2020, for instances, sees nothing wrong with the idea of just cutting off social security in the United States. Fuck the old people. Regardless of justifying with something like a statement of, "well, it probably would never be possible to do..." The fact still remains that the notion of disenfranchising a generation of people is palatable solely for the "I can get more for me" rationalization is dangerous.

Take that a couple of steps further, and the idea of euthanatizing a generation of old people because "they don't produce anything and they are in our way" becomes a logical social policy.


I think that the notion of "political correctness" is an utter failure. It has done nothing but impart an abstract sense of "shoulds" and "should nots." There's no sociological "leap" of understanding in this, because it completely lacks the experience of understanding of what created it in the first place. There is no "sprit" or "heart" in someone waving their finger at you and saying, "You shouldn't say that!" There is no first hand experience today for someone to base it on.

No one today has watched as riot police with a water canon hosing down black men and women in the streets, knocking them to the ground in violent submission.

I can't blame anyone for hating the notion of "PC," and I never had anyone shoving it down my throat. And I hate political correctness as much as you. I hate it because it is a bankrupt educational/social policy which utterly fails to communicate the emotions and nature which created it in the first place.


What is worse, most countries have not even experienced a social revolution like the civil rights movement. Perhaps one that was instituted by government regulations, but not from the standpoint of going through the revolutionary struggle. This makes the whole thing abstract, at best. And abstraction is like simulation, it isn't "personally" real.


Given the directions which our societies are going in, I expect that over the next 25 to 50 years there will be very inhumane social policies enacted. The palatably of "winners" and "losers" in society is becoming more acceptable. Currently in the "abstract." But, the idea of genocide of the Jews was an abstract concept when Hitler was a young man and first exposed to it in pamphlets. It only took something like 20 years to go from abstraction to institutionalized genocide.

If you (not you DD, I mean the ethereal "you") think that I am nuts in saying that, I'd like to point back to 2001 (after 9/11) when the Arab American communities were being terrorized by the extreme fringe of American society. Sure, they were the "fringe." But so were the Brown Shirts which no one, at first, took seriously.


Our species has all of the components to create a horrific society in the future. We've done it in the past, and we are totally capable of doing it again in the future. There are no biological safe guards to prevent it (we have not evolved out of our tribalistic natures). The only reason that it is "somewhat" in check today is because of the software (i.e., our society). And from my viewpoint, this is slowly breaking down.

At the end of the day, everyone will be forced to live with what ever is built on top of the sociological trends which are bubbling up now. What is a "rush" today, may become a part of acceptable social policy when the next generation or two is driving the bus. If the notion of euthanatizing the aged becomes "logical" two or three generations from now, then this generation will be on the losing end of it.


Hell, I don't think that very many are going to groke what I am saying here anyway. I'm speaking to the idea that today's video games are symptomatic of a much larger problem. And anything that I say in on a bulletin board isn't going to make any difference anyway, so I'm done talking about this.

Sorry if I've upset anyone...

 

[Brian Oblivion]

If I was being swarmed by 50 armed Hassidic Jews I wouldn't find it unreasonable for my partner to scream: "DEAR GOD! WE HAVE TO KILL ALL THESE JEWS!" - that doesn't make him or me a nazi.

The problem is that the Hassidim don't tend to do that kind of thing. In an abstract sense, it is like the simulation putting words in the mouths of those who never spoke them.

 

[Morrison's Lament]

So Haitians "tend to do that kind of thing" - meaning attack people in groups of fifty with machine guns? I think they might take issue with that generalization

Basically, I agree with all that you are saying Brian, and others who are against glorification of violence. One point totally escapes me though:

Haven't you ever been to the movies?

It's not like this is new - I have seen movies showing TEN TIMES worse things than any computer game could ever hope to get away with. And no one seems to infer that means we are going downhill as a society down some slippery track ending in the re-establishment of ritual murder for entertainment...

As far as I can see - we are succumbing to the understandable fear of the new - when in fact far worse things have gone on under our noses for decades. And those movies *still* haven't lead to the kind of widespread real-life horrors we are expected to believe are around the corner because of video-games...

--- G.

 

[Brian Oblivion]

So Haitians "tend to do that kind of thing" - meaning attack people in groups of fifty with machine guns? I think they might take issue with that generalization...

I left them out because I do not have a good historical knowledge of Haitians in Florida. I don't know if there are Haitian gangs in reality or not. And if I said something wrong, someone would jump on me about that rather than the overall message that I am attempting to get across.

I mentioned film along with video games earlier. I see the same thing occurring over a much longer period of time.

Have you ever seen the original "Psycho" (1960) by Hitchcock? At the time, it was considered the most frightening film ever made. After seeing that film, my mother was totally unable to take a bath without locking the bathroom door for two years.

Yet, when you see it today, there is nothing frightening about it at all (due to the contrast of other horrific films).

This "trend" toward the extreme has been going on for some time. What I am saying is that I see this approaching a kind of sociological "critical mass." There will come a point where simulation can not provide the next greater dopamine rush. Yet there is more and more of a demand for it (just as there was in Rome, where each year they needed to become more and more violent in non-simulation).

And those movies *still* haven't lead to the kind of widespread real-life horrors we are expected to believe are around the corner because of video-games...

I'm not seeing the video games as a cause, I see them as being symptomatic of something much wider. I think that the "drama" that they incorporate adds to the problem. But I don't see video games as being the source of the problem.

I worry that we will reach a point where simulation no longer produces the rush. I also worry that the "drama" used to create the rush has subtle effects on our collective psyche.

It's not really one factor that I am addressing, it is a host of them which I see as all having an interconnection.

 

[Morrison's Lament]

I see your point, I missed some of the detail earlier as I probably read your posts too fast.

In conclusion, I agree in most part

--- G.

 

[afcone]

Haven't tried the latest GTA but I can say from experience that the local lemming population has never really recovered from my addiction to that game....

LOL - I downloaded STeem the other day so I could emulate my old Atari STE and play Lemmings again. Wasted about a week on it

 

[-spiderman-]

This "trend" toward the extreme has been going on for some time. What I am saying is that I see this approaching a kind of sociological "critical mass." There will come a point where simulation can not provide the next greater dopamine rush. Yet there is more and more of a demand for it (just as there was in Rome, where each year they needed to become more and more violent in non-simulation).

You keep mentioning the paralells to Rome, and I agree that in human nature, it is paralelled. But so what? That really doesn't have much to do with the article.

The people in the article said, and I quote (this is hilarious): "Residents of Little Haiti (in Miami) have become like a sitting duck."

Do you believe that Haitians are now "sitting ducks" becuase of this videogame? Like responsible, reasonably sane adults are going to play this game and decide all of the sudden "gee, you know, I really feel like takin' out some Haitians today, lemme get my duck hunting hat."

You're right, people throughout history have always needed an outlet for their darker sides, whether socially acceptable or not. Violent movies, porno, violent games, sadistic T.V. shows like Fear Factor and Survivor (we love to see others suffer don't we). Hell even Shakespeare is full of nothing but blood and death and deceit.

Throughout our history we have always needed them, and that's not what's being argued here. Its the fact that all of these DO NOT promote this kind of behavior in the real world. There is a hell of a difference and if a person can't see that then they fail to realize something integral to the human psyche.

Sure, maybe 1% of all people who see GTA will go out and attack some Haitian. But you know what, 1% of all people who eat cheese are also serial killers, where's the fucking correlation. People always do bad things, people will always be racist, people will always hate, and always be violent. But people will NEVER run out of things to blame...

 

[Brian Oblivion]

You keep mentioning the paralells to Rome, and I agree that in human nature, it is paralelled. But so what? That really doesn't have much to do with the article.

I was talking about something which extends outside of the article.

You're right, people throughout history have always needed an outlet for their darker sides, whether socially acceptable or not.

That's not what I have been trying to impress. My theory as to why this occurs has nothing to do with a need to drive. It is that [I believe] we have a dopamine feedback mechanism which originated as a tribal survival strategy. The ability to dehumanize "them" and kill "them" without any sense of empathy. It is this mechanism that I believe is being "tickled" by this pathogenic behavior.

It is this which I believe is problematic, and I've expressed the reasons for why I think that in my previous post.

Throughout our history we have always needed them, and that's not what's being argued here. Its the fact that all of these DO NOT promote this kind of behavior in the real world. There is a hell of a difference and if a person can't see that then they fail to realize something integral to the human psyche.
...
But people will NEVER run out of things to blame...

As I stated previously:

Originally posted by Brian Oblivion
I'm not seeing the video games as a cause, I see them as being symptomatic of something much wider. I think that the "drama" that they incorporate adds to the problem. But I don't see video games as being the source of the problem.

I worry that we will reach a point where simulation no longer produces the rush. I also worry that the "drama" used to create the rush has subtle effects on our collective psyche.

It's not really one factor that I am addressing, it is a host of them which I see as all having an interconnection.

 

[Belisarius]

<<It would not take a long time for our cultures to regress back to the Coliseum (we still have the wiring). We were completely capable of it then, and we are still capable of doing it again now. I'm not talking about this occurring "all of a sudden." I'm talking about a slow progression taking place over several generations. The seeds are here today in this new acceptance of simulated violence against others.

In ten years, we have gone from the game "Doom" to killing innocents on the street (with this Road Rage game). Given the progression, it isn't going to take much longer (another 10 years?) before there is nothing that can be done in a simulation which will exceed the last generation of violent games. No simulation will provide the "extra" dopamine rush to compete with the previous generation. Then what? Where does it go after that?>>

I hear that. I've long thought that the only major difference between us and the Romans when it comes to violent entertainment is that we like simulated death, and they liked the real thing. But then again, the Romans didn't have F/X...

I'll admit that this is a gross simplification, as the psychological and cultural underpinnings behind watching gladiatorial games are much more complex than we think; the same caveat to oversimplication applies to us too, I believe.

 

[inthegame]

What about "Kill all the triads" and what not is that not discrimination against asians? don't say its against a gang cause' nobody outside of asians is gonna be a triad.

Everyone who is upset about this is just ignoring that it has nothing to do with fucking haitians, but about the "gang element" and for anyone who's been living in a box for the last couple decades/centuries whatever...

MOST GANGS ARE SEPERATED BY RACE, SORRY TO BE OFFENSIVE BUT THAT'S JUST HOW IT IS!

No black guy's in the russian mafia, no white triads....

People complain to much, and using a slippery slope argument about GTA3 is absolutely pathetic. The anti italian defamation people had a way stronger case against the sopranos and that was still bullshit.

 

[DigitalDuality]

^
actually that's a good point that hasn't been brought up...and a simple one at that...

 

[Acidfiend]

It seems to me that there are a few people in this thread that are forgetting the simple truth that videogames are ARTIFICIAL. They aren't real, they do NOT translate to real life situations and no matter how depraved they become it will not changed the way people act in real life. This is not the Coliseum, we aren't killing blokes for fun. Even if we were, I dont think it was the Coliseum that was responsible for the fall of the Roman empire anyhow. Just because I can go run over old ladies in GTA or carmegeddon or whatever doesn't alter my perception that doing so in real life is unacceptable. In fact, the simple reason that our perception of such acts as unacceptable is what makes it so appealing in video games. If society degrades to the point where killing old ladies becomes common practice, there wouldn't be a need to be so severe with simulations, would it? Take comfort in video games with shock value, because the fact that it sells on shock value makes it clear that society views that behavior as shocking.

None of these points even matter, because when it comes down to it...it's STILL JUST A FUCKING VIDEOGAME. Christ allmighty!

 

[SteveElektro]

GTA is just a game.

/goes off to steal cars and shoot cops