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More Grand Theft Auto controversy

mariposa420 said:
Umm, I think I established effectively that I had something valuable to say with reference to the issue at hand despite the fact that I am completely uninterested in video games.

The issues here are racism and bigotry; not proficiency with GTA.

Come up with something better than that, and please learn to spell the word 'conversation.' You could have picked something better than some sentence fragment as your sole post in this thread.

:|

My sole post?
Proficiency isn't what I needed, context was what I needed.

CANVERSATION over. Go back to Legal Q and A.
 
DigitalDuality said:
Yes we still have gang fights, we still fight just and unjust battles through military means, (though there's lots of us that oppose it.) You still have your occassional horrific tragedies such as Columbine and the VA/DC/MD sniper. But IMO we're far less barbaric than we used to be. We don't have slavery anymore either...But most people today would vomit or shit themselves in fear if they had to experience half the barbaric things we used to do, watch, etc...
I'll concede to that. There has been a decline in violent crime:

Interestingly, the decline began one year after Clinton took office. =D
(Also see: http://www.whitehouse.gov/fsbr/crime.html)

So you may have something there. At the same time, I am still not convinced that there isn't the potential of some kind of sociological "critical mass" could be reached. What could, or would, occur once the simulations can no longer provide the next extreme? There is a technical limit, and I expect that we will reach it some time within the next 10 to 20 years (perhaps sooner).

So.. if that's your theory, and this is what you see wrong in the world..or with us as a species, how would you go about fixing it?
I don't think there is a true fix. In my thinking, this whole issue is largely due to a collection of survival strategies related to being tribal animals. And it is all interrelated to "our" desire for heros, distrust of those who are "different" from ourselves (this is constantly a theme throughout our 5,000 or so years of recorded memory), and the tendency to align ourselves with the "alpha" leader.

"Fixing" this is a rather elusive topic. To me, the idea of a "fix" would be to remove the tendency from the hardwiring. That is to say, that even without behavior enforcement from software (i.e., sociological conditioning) that the trait would not appear. This would allow us to simply "cruse" without the possibility that we'd ever have the possibility of returning to the "Coliseum."

There are only a few ways that this change (in the sense of being a "real" fix) could be accomplished. [1] One of them is for our species to evolve away from these tendencies, which I doubt will ever happen because we [I think] are far too successful from nature's standpoint to evolve further.

[2] Another way would be to remove the trait via bioengineering means. I am totally against this because I, quite frankly, don't believe that humans are smart enough to not fuck things up at that level of genetic manipulation.

[3] The third way would be for this trait to be considered "undesirable" in the mating game. Those who possess the trait don't get laid and, as a result, don't get to contribute to the future gene pool.

I don't think that any of these options are within the realm of reality today. But I do believe that option [3] had a great deal to do with both our aggressiveness as a species, and in there being a tendency, in a small subset of the human population, to using rape as a survival strategy (I don't mind explaining myself about this, if you are interested, but it is kind of off topic for this discussion).


No matter where this is all headed, I think that it will be very interesting to see what occurs in either the next generation, or the generation after that one. All of the most compelling sociological occurrences (the civil rights movement, the peace movement, WWII, etc.) will be looked upon as ancient history (much like the way that the civil war is seen today). That's not to say that there won't be other compelling sociological occurrences that will happen in the future. Rather that, those dealing with the fundamentals of civil rights will be long seen as just another part of the cultural bard.
 
Acidfiend said:
It seems to me that there are a few people in this thread that are forgetting the simple truth that videogames are ARTIFICIAL...
I'm not sure if you are referring to me or not. But if so, please do read all of my posts as my arguments include the notion that we are dealing with simulations, and that the simulations are more a symptom of a wider issue.

If you aren't addressing this toward me than please disregard this post. :)
 
hashish2020 said:
Originally posted by mariposa420
Umm, I think I established effectively that I had something valuable to say with reference to the issue at hand despite the fact that I am completely uninterested in video games.

The issues here are racism and bigotry; not proficiency with GTA.

Come up with something better than that, and please learn to spell the word 'conversation.' You could have picked something better than some sentence fragment as your sole post in this thread.
My sole post?
Proficiency isn't what I needed, context was what I needed.

CANVERSATION over. Go back to Legal Q and A.
Yeah, right hash. And the world revolves around you doesn't it? 8)
 
^
not that i have the information to prove anything, but what other functions this "trait" of ours have? Don't you think there'd be defects and aspects we can't predict that would be denied to us because we wished to get rid of something "bad" or "displeasing"? I don't think we'll hit a critical mass as you say.

What if, like many drugs we take and find out later in life, there's alot of negative side effects to it? by removing one part of our innate traits, however you do it, is playing with the human mind, human nature, and I don't think fucking with it, at any time is a good idea. I like being human, in all of its extremes and all of the grey areas. I wouldn't give it up for the world. See my posts here at Wouldn't lifelong happiness make us stagnate?


"Shock" has been the same since its been an issue. Go back to the 1700-1800s..Read Marquis De Sade.. rape, incest, homosexuality (shocking to christians or sheltered "normal" people..what ever that is) violence, vomiting, shitting, and pissing on people. BDSM to the extreme, murder.. you name it. ANd De Sade isn't an isolated exception, there's plenty of people through arts/entertainment throughout history who appealed heavily to sex or violence to the absolute extremes. Read up on the history of Circuses and their side show tents and some of the shit went on there.

Everything has already been said before, all this "shock" value we have, is just recycled. Sex, violence, all of it.. its just more easibly accessible now. BUt the "negative" isn't the only thing more readily available, the positive is too. I will say that the envelope about it all does keep getting pushed "further", but its more of how its being said, done.. its more about the refinement of an unpopular recycled idea and becoming more and more easily accessible than anything. Every generation, sex and violence scares the shit out of parents, and every generation turns out to be ok.. they grow up, get jobs, have kids of their own and get scared of it all over again because it has changed so much since they were kids.

I will admit that in pop music, movies, etc.. the negative connotations to alot of things quite outweigh positive messages. Where's the socially conscious hip hop nowadays? Underground for the most part. I don't think Eminem and gangsta rap should disappear, i just think more positive alternatives should be presented too. But that's mere preference.

So you may have something there. At the same time, I am still not convinced that there isn't the potential of some kind of sociological "critical mass" could be reached. What could, or would, occur once the simulations can no longer provide the next extreme? There is a technical limit, and I expect that we will reach it some time within the next 10 to 20 years (perhaps sooner).

you do realise that, maybe not within the same intelligence you bring, this arguement has been made every generation, right?
 
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Going back to the original point...

I don't doubt the expression of the trait. As you've pointed out, there's nothing new about it. It is the expression of it in the sense that it takes existing groups and simulates their victimization. Just like the example of the Hassidim that Morrison's Lament mentioned earlier, these folks have no voice in how they are being portrayed.

Even if we are to look at this from the standpoint of an expression of our natures, the selection of the victim or enemy is not occurring naturally. It is being selected by some asshole sitting in a cube someplace, somewhere. The fact is that the geek in the cube could have made up some factitious group in the game. It would not have made any difference to the player. But he/they decided to choose someone real. And I believe that the Haitians had a right to complain about it.

Perhaps that is the point here. The game play would have been no different if the gang had been fictionalized or if they had been a real group of people. It doesn't bring anything more to the game.
 
Brian Oblivion said:
Going back to the original point...

I don't doubt the expression of the trait. As you've pointed out, there's nothing new about it. It is the expression of it in the sense that it takes existing groups and simulates their victimization. Just like the example of the Hassidim that Morrison's Lament mentioned earlier, these folks have no voice in how they are being portrayed.

Even if we are to look at this from the standpoint of an expression of our natures, the selection of the victim or enemy is not occurring naturally. It is being selected by some asshole sitting in a cube someplace, somewhere. The fact is that the geek in the cube could have made up some factitious group in the game. It would not have made any difference to the player. But he/they decided to choose someone real. And I believe that the Haitians had a right to complain about it.

Perhaps that is the point here. The game play would have been no different if the gang had been fictionalized or if they had been a real group of people. It doesn't bring anything more to the game.

It brings a modicum of real world grounding. That is half the rush of the game.
 
frizzantik said:
i'm sure rockstar loves it every time they piss off another group and get more free advertising :p

Ditto! There's no better publicity , than Bad Publicity! You can't buy that kind of advertising.
 
hashish2020 said:
My sole post?
Proficiency isn't what I needed, context was what I needed.

CANVERSATION over. Go back to Legal Q and A.

What's a 'canversation?'

This is a very thought provoking and timely thread. I don't understand why you feel the need to personally attack me, especially considering I'm a staff member.

Congratulations, asshat. You are now the only person on my ignore list.
 
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people just want something to bitch about, GTA filled that qouta.

the game isn't racist, it doesn't tell you to kill haitians for the sake of killing hatians, it's telling you to kill haitians for stolen drug money because they're trying ot kill you ANYWAY.


if you haven't played GRAND THEFT AUTO you have no business discussing it, because all of the 'KILL HATIANS' or 'KILL THIS KILL THAT' has been taken WAY out of context.


oh and i'm from miami, and allapattah/little haiti is a shithole. i wouldn't mind seeing that part of town get blown up. not because of haitians, just because the place itself is disgusting. they turn the traffic lights off at night because stopping is a BAD idea.
 
^^^

Surely that should be "Scotland", as that's where the game was programmed?

;)
 
^ Brian what's the sarcasm for? I think that's a totally appropriate thing to say that someone who has not either played the game or watched it played has no business discussing it.... they can if they want... but they don't understand the context in which it's said and what's behind it, all they hear is "Kill...Haitains".... OMG ITS RASCIST OMG OMG....

No. It's Not. Period.
 
even if you haven't played it.... you can tell by viewing it, that it tries to be realistic as possible... and umm.. gangs are self segregated by race...
 
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