MK677 Bizarre psychological response

GrymReefer

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I have recently began using MK677 (Ibutamoren) since August 4th. My first dose I started our conservatively and did 12.5mg/0.5ml as it's dosed 25mg/ml. I had mildy increased hunger, but nothing really noticeable or outside of the norm regarding my own natural hunger.

Now onto the weird part...

(Aug 4) First dose of MK677 within roughly 90-150 seconds I was in a full blown panic attack/PTSD style episode. I just had to talk myself down and remember it was a ticket for a ride that eventually ends. The actual crawling out of skin feeling lasted for about 3-4 hours before I was able to return to normal activity and comfortably sit in my chair without the occasional fleeting emotion triggering me to want to run full speed. Ironically as long as I stayed moving/pacing the actual situational awareness to my heart rate and the palpitation faded. It was only upon trying to stay still that it seemed the anxiety would exacerbate itself 10x fold.

(Aug 5) Second dose of MK677 I went way more conservative wondering if it at first it was my own psychosomatics playing into the fear mongering of myself as I'm taking a rather foreign substance imo than what I'd have traditionally injected or popped orally. I only dosed 5mg/0.2ml and had a slight spike in heart rate initially that I very noticeably felt, but it then fell off about an hour. Similar to that quick jump in heart rate you get after administering clenbuterol. I had no anxiety that night and went to sleep just fine.

(Aug 6) Third try dosing MK677 I went up to 7.5mg/0.3ml and boom triggered right back into a state of anxiety/PTSD/fight or fight. I'm not quite sure how to describe it. This time I wanted to see what I could use to quickly alleviate the issues and 0.5mg of clonazepam completely removed all palpitations and brought me back to my normal baseline + the mild sedative effect.

I'm coming to the understanding that there must be something inherently wrong with my body's own stress response and the cascading chain of events that occurs from a spike in ghrelin activity in my brain. I don't want to 100% throw in the towel yet as I feel this is something rather psychosomatic that I may be missing or that I may be able to utilize some known anti-anxiety supplements beforehand to offset the initial response my brain has to it. I've found a lot of various threads on reddit regarding people experiencing extreme episodes of anxiety without any real known past experience with stress related disorders. Also to mention there is a study that utilized MK677 as a means of enhancing fear in rats, but would that really translate over to humans?

I'm planning on removing THC completely from my body and trying this again soon.
 
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I tried last night a very small amount again of 5mg/0.2ml at 9pm and had little to no issues except the clear noticeable jump in heart rate and a mild palpitation. Everything was perfectly fine for the night and then randomly a conversation with a friend got into some very detailed shit regarding a confrontation and it just became too vivid. It immediately sent me into another panic attack. I'd say the best way to describe the panic is that it makes me feel the extreme desire to just run with no thoughts in my head that I need to defend myself or anything. It's quite strange and I eventually used clonazepam to re-establish myself.

Side not is that I've been diagnosed with some form of PTSD years ago as they said I reacted too violently to a home invasion in regards to the force used against me... good ol' America and it's police force. However, I'm uncertain as to how ghrelin is aggregating the flight or fight response to such a significant degree and am hoping that someone else has experienced this before and can give some insight. I'd much rather deal with the gasping for air from a tren injection than this.
 
Interesting! Apologies that I don't have too much useful to add but I just did a little reading about this because it seemed such an unusual thing to me initially. I believe MK-677 is active orally? Assuming I've not been mislead and just placeboed myself I have taken it this way and not noticed anything psychologically one way or the other. I would imagine that this method of dosing might be more suitable for you however, as the slower absorption would give your body time to acclimatise?

Ghrelin and the ghrelin receptor system, if you'll excuse my garbled layman's terminology, is complex, and there are a lot of interactions with other neurotransmitters and hormones so it's not too surprising I guess that some people would experience undesirable psychoactivity even though I haven't seen it reported before. I would surmise that the issue is a hypersensitive autonomic nervous system as you mention you've been diagnosed with PTSD, and the autonomic nervous system seems to be more affected by ghrelin/HGH-secretagogue activity than the usual neurotransmitter systems that are discussed with respect to psychiatric conditions.

Apologies that my reading so far hasn't got too far from the Wiki for the "ghrelin receptor" (might be something of a misnomer, not sure if there is a specific "ghrelin receptor" or this is just a kind of scientific colloquialism) but there were a few things that caught my eye:
When growth hormone secretagogue receptor is activated, a variety of different intracellular signaling cascades can result, depending on the cell type in which the receptor is expressed. These intracellular signaling cascades include mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK)[9]), protein kinase A (PKA),[9] protein kinase B (PKB), also known as AKT[9]), and AMP Activated Protein Kinase (AMPK) cascades.[9]
I was just about to say that AMPK I would presume is the culprit for unwanted stress reactions - but actually I don't know if that's correct, I might be just incorrectly thinking that because ampakines can be anxiogenic in some people. Actually biochemically I don't even know what the definition of an ampakine is so it might encompass a few of those protein kinases...

Anyway, MK-677 has been studied for a while for potential unwanted stress and fear responses - A ghrelin-growth hormone axis drives stress-induced vulnerability to enhanced fear - actually I've just noticed that paper isn't about MK-677 specifically but I've seen it discussed before that MK-677 may be an inducer of this effect, in some people, although usually it's considered to be something that develops gradually (AFAIK) so your acute reaction is interesting. I would suspect that the general mechanism is the same. I don't know what ones are available that you could try - but I wonder if there are any that are available, tested in humans and safe, you might try administering a ghrelin receptor antagonist to see if this abolishes the fear response - obviously this will potentially block a lot of the effects that you are presumably using MK-677 for as well - but with a little considered juggling of half-lives you would at least be able to narrow down what's happening.

I'm just gonna veer into straight up broscience here but have you noticed any effect of diet on your psychological state and tendency to unwanted/unexpected stress/fear responses? Specifically, if you notice any difference with your carbohydrate intake. Most people do - I have been informed before - but obviously because it's food and the delay between eating and onset of psychiatric symptoms is significant and messy, most people are not particularly aware of this effect. However I would imagine that with whatever quirks of your own ANS-regulatory hormones are causing this, you may notice a more pronounced difference with eating carbs...

I would presume that the aforementioned hormonal quirks are something that your body has just not acclimatised because there is no endogenous need for it, but (again - not a doctor, self confessed broscientist) I would think if you are dead set on using MK-677 you may be able to gradually increase your tolerance to it... perhaps co-administration of the lowest effective dose of a benzodiazepine would allow you to get some perspective on this effect, keep it at manageable levels, and then wean yourself off the need for that, probably with other biofeedback/meditative practices...

I hope someone else can share something more definite and I hope also that you get to the bottom of this and can find some solution!
 
Interesting! Apologies that I don't have too much useful to add but I just did a little reading about this because it seemed such an unusual thing to me initially. I believe MK-677 is active orally? Assuming I've not been mislead and just placeboed myself I have taken it this way and not noticed anything psychologically one way or the other. I would imagine that this method of dosing might be more suitable for you however, as the slower absorption would give your body time to acclimatise?

Ghrelin and the ghrelin receptor system, if you'll excuse my garbled layman's terminology, is complex, and there are a lot of interactions with other neurotransmitters and hormones so it's not too surprising I guess that some people would experience undesirable psychoactivity even though I haven't seen it reported before. I would surmise that the issue is a hypersensitive autonomic nervous system as you mention you've been diagnosed with PTSD, and the autonomic nervous system seems to be more affected by ghrelin/HGH-secretagogue activity than the usual neurotransmitter systems that are discussed with respect to psychiatric conditions.

Apologies that my reading so far hasn't got too far from the Wiki for the "ghrelin receptor" (might be something of a misnomer, not sure if there is a specific "ghrelin receptor" or this is just a kind of scientific colloquialism) but there were a few things that caught my eye:
I was just about to say that AMPK I would presume is the culprit for unwanted stress reactions - but actually I don't know if that's correct, I might be just incorrectly thinking that because ampakines can be anxiogenic in some people. Actually biochemically I don't even know what the definition of an ampakine is so it might encompass a few of those protein kinases...

Anyway, MK-677 has been studied for a while for potential unwanted stress and fear responses - A ghrelin-growth hormone axis drives stress-induced vulnerability to enhanced fear - actually I've just noticed that paper isn't about MK-677 specifically but I've seen it discussed before that MK-677 may be an inducer of this effect, in some people, although usually it's considered to be something that develops gradually (AFAIK) so your acute reaction is interesting. I would suspect that the general mechanism is the same. I don't know what ones are available that you could try - but I wonder if there are any that are available, tested in humans and safe, you might try administering a ghrelin receptor antagonist to see if this abolishes the fear response - obviously this will potentially block a lot of the effects that you are presumably using MK-677 for as well - but with a little considered juggling of half-lives you would at least be able to narrow down what's happening.

I'm just gonna veer into straight up broscience here but have you noticed any effect of diet on your psychological state and tendency to unwanted/unexpected stress/fear responses? Specifically, if you notice any difference with your carbohydrate intake. Most people do - I have been informed before - but obviously because it's food and the delay between eating and onset of psychiatric symptoms is significant and messy, most people are not particularly aware of this effect. However I would imagine that with whatever quirks of your own ANS-regulatory hormones are causing this, you may notice a more pronounced difference with eating carbs...

I would presume that the aforementioned hormonal quirks are something that your body has just not acclimatised because there is no endogenous need for it, but (again - not a doctor, self confessed broscientist) I would think if you are dead set on using MK-677 you may be able to gradually increase your tolerance to it... perhaps co-administration of the lowest effective dose of a benzodiazepine would allow you to get some perspective on this effect, keep it at manageable levels, and then wean yourself off the need for that, probably with other biofeedback/meditative practices...

I hope someone else can share something more definite and I hope also that you get to the bottom of this and can find some solution!

Thank you for the response! I'm more of a traditional AAS user so these were rather new categories to me. I seem to have put myself into an experiment that I had little to no understanding of some more intricate downstream activities. I watched a few videos and read quite a few logs of others, but most didn't use MK677 as monotherapy rather as a tool to increase hunger to maximize potential of other agents. My intent was simply to increase free flowing growth factors and help pound down more food as I progress more and more through PT and eventually full on compound movements for some injuries.

I was able to monitor my blood pressure all times that this occurred and it was stable with just minor fluctuations in bpm (60-66) for all tests. Would be interesting to get a cortisol test right now and see if that was influenced at all from these episodes.
 
I would also have been caught off guard with MK-677 for sure had I been in your shoes, as by all appearances it would seem to be a fairly benign GH secretagogue. My own experience with hormonal PEDs is very limited, I've done 1 cycle so far my whole life haha, a purely oral one with oxandrolone and MK-677. I know some people on bodybuilding forums would say that's pointless but for my purposes it worked well and I was happy with the results. I have a bit of an aversion to injection at the moment also which was a factor. I also monitored BP and it was elevated dose and cycle duration dependently but obviously because I was dosing orally it would be hard to parse out any MK677-induced effects.

A cortisol test would be interesting for sure although I feel that might be too simplistic to reveal that much useful information - from that paper -
Repeated systemic administration of a ghrelin receptor agonist enhanced fear memory but did not increase either corticotropin releasing factor (CRF) or corticosterone.
Again my ignorance shows but corticosterone and corticotropins I interpreted as being positively correlated with or even causative of increased cortisol levels? I could be wrong about that though.

If you have the means and the time to get cortisol tested easily though and can weather your obviously unpleasant physiological response to MK677 administration, I would suggest looking into NSI-189, it is a discontinued novel antidepressant which never made it through clinical trials but from my reading and subjective experience (which I know means next to nothing) one possible mechanism of action is suppression of cortisol release, and I have experienced effects that I would think correlate with this following vigorous exercise and also stimulant comedowns. It's mechanism of action is essentially still unknown, that said, but it has interesting effects on hypothalamic neurogenesis which is obviously one of the deep brain structures implicated in learned fear responses along with the amygdala, and part of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis which ghrelin and by extension MK677 does seem to mess with so there is an outside possibility that interrupting this feedback loop could have a positive outcome in your own case. Disclaimer though again, broscience alert, I wish I did know more about this but depending how far along the road you're willing to go as far as experimentation there is surely some interesting stuff that you might uncover.
 
The more I read about this the more interesting stuff I find! It seems you're not the first one to report a pronounced negative reaction to MK-677 - I found a few reports on reddit, including some information that perhaps for people who do get this reaction, another GH secretagogue may be a better option - from this discussion, and mentioned again in this one - I will just quote the whole article actually as it is 2 years old just in case it gets removed or something, it's a repost from an archive elsewhere apparently:

How do we lose GHSR1a (Ghrelin receptor's) in the brain?

It appears that transient stimulation such as what one would get with GHRPs (GHRP-2, GHRP-6, Ipamorelin, Hexarelin) leads to a rapid desensitization and internalization of the receptors in the brain and this is a good thing. On the other hand administration of long acting Ghrelin-memetic (ibutamoren mesylate (MK-0677) likely leads to a habitual loss receptor status. This is a very bad thing.


Ghrelin mimetics (or agonists) do more that create growth hormone

I'm not sure most people understand that the Ghrelin mimetics do more than create GH. The Growth hormone secretagogue receptor 1a (GHSR1a) is the primary receptor for Ghrelin and the Growth Hormone Releasing Peptides as well as the non-peptide Growth Hormone Secretagogues. There are subtype receptors that both acyl-Ghrelin and the GHRPs bind to that the non-peptide GHS's do not. However the primary receptor is the GHSR1a and it is located on somatotrophs (GH-releasing cells) in the anterior pituitary. Ghrelin or a GHRP or non-peptide GHS bind to these receptors sometimes in concert with Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) and cause growth hormone release.
However GHSR1a are located in all sorts of non-pituitary tissue. When Ghrelin or GHRP-2 or GHRP-6 or Ipamorelin or Hexarelin bind to these receptors in these tissues they generally have positive effects. In some instances they can increase local acting growth hormone in those tissues. Their receptor interaction is transient because peptides break down. They do not over-stimulate receptors on the heart, lung, spleen, muscle or brain.
GHS molecules that do not break down readily cause non-physiological states. They overstimulate and in regard to the brain they create chronic stresses that are potentially neurologically damaging or altering of physiology that can lead to states of unhealth.


Ghrelin in the brain is a stress hormone that acts independent of cortisol. Whether this activity is good or bad depends on how long the GHSR1a is activated.

Brain GHSR1a activation is biphasic:
Acute Ghrelin or agonists (GHRP-2, Ipamorelin, GHRP-6, Hexarelin): .
  • anti-depressive
  • anti-anxiety
  • protective of stress
  • potentially neurologically protective
Chronic (non-pulsed) Ghrelin agonists (ibutamoren mesylate (MK-0677) : .
  • depression producing
  • anxiety producing
  • fear conditionoing producing effects of chronic stress
  • potentially neurologically damaging
It's important to understand what follows. A tip toe through the literature often reveals the good that Ghrelin produces. However those studies used acute methodologies.
The recent study A ghrelin–growth hormone axis drives stress-induced vulnerability to enhanced fear, RM Meyer, Molecular Psychiatry (2014), 1284 – 1294 distinguishes it's results by using a low dose but longer lasting Ghrelin mimetic (ibutamoren mesylate (MK-0677)) in creating a chronic situation. I will elaborate from the study... . GH is created not only in the pituitary but also in brain regions such as basolateral complex of the amygdala (BLA) . The growth hormone secretagogue receptor 1a (GHSR1a) is found in the BLA. This is the region that regulates emotional states such as fear.

Over-expression of recombinant GH in the BLA does not alter fear acquisition but it does enhance long-term fear memory that is created by chronic Ghrelin.
Chronic Ghrelin or long-lasting agonists such as ibutamoren mesylate (MK-0677) can create the fear/stress response, in the absence of an externally stressful event (in other words the chronic Ghrelin engenders the stressful state) and the presence of GH can amplify it.

Prolonged stress "load" and neuronal dysfunction are correlated. So one would expect chronic Ghrelin to lead to neuronal dysfunction.

Again it is important to remember that GHRPs do more than increase GH release from GH-releasing cells in the pituitary. They also do so peripherally. By peripherally I mean tissue that generally does not release factors systemically but rather uses what it makes locally within the neighboring tissue (paracrine). That tissue does not need to be all of the same type. For instance bone and muscle sometimes share locally released factors.

Not all GHRPs produce the same peripheral GH. They appear to differ somewhat in their ability to bring about GH locally via GHSR1a (growth hormone secretagogue receptor 1a).

In this RM Meyer study stimulation of the GHSR1a in BLA cells by ibutamoren mesylate (MK-0677) led to significantly elevated release of brain GH. Antagonizing the GHSR1a to prevent it's activation prevents the fear conditioning stress response.
However chronic stimulation of the GHSR1a led to the severe brain stress-enhancing effects.

How would Ghrelin or ibutamoren mesylate (MK-0677 readily crosses the blood–brain barrier and has a half-life of >6h) would be available in the amygdala (BLA): . "Ghrelin may also be synthesized by small populations of neurons in the hypothalamus, the cerebral cortex and the brainstem, where it may act as a paracrine hormone rather than being secreted into the blood stream. However, immunoreactive ghrelin-containing fibers have never been reported in amygdala. Thus, it seems that the most likely source of bioactive ghrelin affecting fear lies in the periphery, although a role for centrally derived ghrelin cannot be fully eliminated."

Thus higher amounts or long-lasting agonists would likley supply the activation of GHSR1a in the amygdala (BLA). Peptidyl Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone are short lived and would be expected to exert positive effects (as discussed in the follow on sections) and not likely be, if used physiologically, capable of the detrimental effects.

Whereas non-peptidyl longer lived agonists would be expected to exert negative effects and as the RM Meyer study demonstrates are capable of the detrimental effects.

Most of the Discussion from A ghrelin–growth hormone axis drives stress-induced vulnerability to enhanced fear, RM Meyer, Molecular Psychiatry (2014), 1284 – 1294

They found that the . ...effects of stress are not simply downstream from glucocorticoids or adrenal catecholamines. We also show that increased ghrelin receptor activity is sufficient and necessary for stress-enhanced fear and is dissociable from HPA activity. Repeated activation of ghrelin receptors in nonstressed animals significantly enhances fear learning without elevating HPA stress hormones, whereas systemic blockade of the ghrelin receptor during chronic stress prevents stress-related enhancement of fear, even in the presence of elevated adrenal stress hormones We demonstrate that the amygdala, a brain region that displays enhanced function in chronically stressed animals and in patients with trauma-related disorders, is likely the locus of the fear enhancing effects of repeated ghrelin receptor stimulation. Finally, we show that GH, a downstream effector of ghrelin receptor activation, is increased in the BLA by chronic stress, is sufficient to enhance fear learning and plays a necessary role in the fear potentiating effects of ghrelin. Thus, ghrelin and growth hormone act together in the amygdala to enhance fear.

Our study is the first to explicitly examine the effects of protracted exposure to elevated ghrelin, as observed following chronic stress. We show that there are profound differences in the behavioral consequences of ghrelin exposure following different exposure durations, similar to the cumulative nature of stress. We also provide the first evidence to link prolonged exposure to elevated ghrelin with a specific, detrimental consequence of stress, enhanced fear memory, which typifies trauma-induced anxiety disorders such as PTSD. Because PTSD is a multifaceted disorder producing many symptoms, including those related to avoidance and hyperarousal, it will be interesting to determine whether chronically elevated ghrelin contributes to these sequelae of PTSD in addition to promoting changes in fear learning and memory.

Our study is also the first to show that GH is a critical downstream mediator of the effects of ghrelin in amygdala. Such a relationship between ghrelin and GH has not been described outside of the pituitary.51 We also provide the first evidence to link elevated amygdala GH with chronic stress and enhanced fear memory. Taken together, our data reveal that the amygdala may be especially sensitive to ghrelin-mediated effects of stress because chronic stress amplifies both ghrelin and GH.
In contrast to our findings that link ghrelin to a pathological condition, prior studies have argued that ghrelin promotes adaptive changes during stress, including antidepressant effects ( Lutter M, The orexigenic hormone ghrelin defends against depressive symptoms of chronic stress. Nat Neurosci 2008; 11: 752–753) and reduction in anxiety.(Spencer SJ, Ghrelin regulates the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and restricts anxiety after acute stress. Biol Psychiatry 2012; 72: 457–465) However, these studies are problematic because they either focused exclusively on acute ghrelin manipulations, which we show can have profoundly different effects from repeated ghrelin manipulations or used short- and long-term ghrelin manipulations interchangeably. In addition, the alterations in ghrelin levels were achieved through artificial states: heightened ghrelin levels were attained by extreme food deprivation or a single bolus injection of the short-lived peptide. The antidepressant effect of ghrelin requires extremely high levels of ghrelin, as found in food-restricted rodents after 10–15% weight loss.13 We find that this level of food deprivation leads to increased exploratory motor activity (Supplementary Figure 10; F(1, 13)¼7.51, Po0.05). A recent study has also reported similar motor effects following acute ghrelin manipulations.57 These motor effects can be a significant confound for measures that require locomotor activity, such as social interaction or exploration. Thus, the ghrelin may alleviate the psychomotor effects of depression in a manner similar to amphetamine.58 It is also important to note that the antidepressant effect of ghrelin reported following a single injection of exogenous ghrelin was only a mild improvement of a stressmrelated impairment in social interaction;13 enhanced ghrelin signaling did not promote ‘normal’ function following stress. Indeed, our results reported here are consistent with limited human data showing that patients with treatment-resistant major depressive disorder have higher ghrelin levels than control patients.59

Here we demonstrate changes in endogenous ghrelin following stress and also use a low-dose, long-acting agonist to replicate the naturally occurring ghrelin state. We also provide clear evidence that acute and chronic ghrelin receptor manipulations have profoundly different effects. It is important to note that the changes in fear reported here occurred following small, but persistent, changes in ghrelin signaling, and all were in the absence of any locomotor effects. We suggest that the utility of ghrelin in the stress response may be similar to glucocorticoids: under ‘normal’ conditions, there is an optimal level of the hormone,60 and too little61,62 or too much hormonal signaling16 can lead to dysfunction in neuronal circuits. Repeated activation of ghrelin and glucocorticoid pathways together contributes to stress-induced ‘load’ on the body. In this regard, heightened ghrelin signaling may have both advantageous and undesirable consequences, but these must be carefully considered with respect to the length and level of elevated ghrelin exposure.

It is not clear why acute and repeated ghrelin receptor stimulation have opposite effects on fear learning. Although GHSR1a activation engages excitatory Gq-dependent molecular cascades, GHSR1 also exhibits an extremely high level of constitutive activity in the absence of bound ligand.77 Accordingly, transient stimulation of GHSR1a leads to rapid desensitization and internalization of the receptor that is slow to recover.78 Such a change is consistent with the decreased fear learning we observed 24 h after a single injection of ghrelin receptor agonist. It is also consistent with the observation that transient bath application of ghrelin to lateral amygdala slices leads to decreased excitatory neurotransmission.15 The electrophysiological changes elicited by chronic ghrelin receptor stimulation in amygdala are completely unexplored, but our work suggests that the change must be opposite to that seen after acute ghrelin receptor stimulation. We suggest that the internalization of the ghrelin receptor may habituate63 following either chronic administration of ghrelin receptor agonist or chronic stress exposure. The differences in receptor kinetics following acute versus chronic ghrelin receptor stimulation represent an especially promising area for future research.



Practical notation... (note - I believe this may be text added from the secondary source, not the original)

Although the study highlights conditioned fear (term used to describe a cluster of behavioral effects produced when an initially neutral stimulus is paired with an aversive stimulus. A stressfull condition becomes married to the ordinary which in turn evokes a chonic stress response). - The Role of the Amygdala in Fear and Anxiety Annual Review of Neuroscience Vol. 15: 353-375 (Volume publication date March 1992)) it has much wider implications. Those wider implications may not be felt but may increase vulnerability to future disease states.

Pulsed GHRPs or spaced GHRPs give their receptors in the brain time off. Activation of those receptors does not become chronic. This is a good thing especially in the presence of growth hormone. GHRPs or any Ghrelin mimietc such as long-lasting analog have functions independent of growth hormone release. If made available physiologically they can reduce Vascular Stress (reducing insulin resistance) - Ghrelin has novel vascular actions that mimic PI 3-kinase-dependent actions of insulin to stimulate production of NO from endothelial cells, M. Iantorno, American Journal of Physiology, vol. 292, no. 3, pp. E756–E764, 2007; act in muscle repair similiar to muscle IGFs - Ghrelin and Des-Acyl Ghrelin Promote Differentiation and Fusion of C2C12 Skeletal Muscle Cells, Nicoletta Filigheddu, MBoC Vol. 18, Issue 3, 986-994, March 2007; acts as an anti-inflammatory - GH-releasing peptide-2 administration prevents liver inflammatory response in endotoxemia, Miriam Granado, AJP - Endo January 2008 vol. 294 no. 1 E131-E141, exhibit some anti-cancer effects - The antiproliferative effect of synthetic peptidyl GH secretagogues in human CALU-1 lung carcinoma cells, Ghe C, Cassoni P, Catapano F, Marrocco T, Deghenghi R, Ghigo E, Muccioli G, Papotti M, Endocrinology 2002, 143, 484–491

However when allowed to activate their receptors beyond their pulsed nature (aside from situations such as drastic calorie deprivation) Ghrelin-mimetics can bring ill effects that may only manifest themselves many years later as a result of increase stress responses that create degeneration.



This is a paper about various GH modulators in mice or perhaps rats, honestly I couldn't parse any particularly actionable information from it except that there may be GH/ghrelin agonists which are more selective, producing desired effects without the induced fear response: Long-term treatment with the ghrelin receptor antagonist [d-Lys3]-GHRP-6 does not improve glucose homeostasis in nonobese diabetic MKR mice

Here is another paper about an endogenous agonist of the ghrelin receptor - I believe there are in fact differences in expression of this particular endogenous compound in people who have learned fear responses (ie, PTSD) but I got a little mixed up in my research and I'm procrastinating so forgive me for not digging out that exact section, you may want to give it a read though: LEAP2 Is an Endogenous Antagonist of the Ghrelin Receptor

Either that paper or another one I have missed linking to referenced a study done on rats where learned fear response was extinguished within 4 weeks with a ghrelin antagonist - obviously human beings are more complex animals than rats, but the more I think about it the more I think you may be able to address this issue with natural means although you may need to simply abstain from ghrelin agonists or GH secretagogues possibly - unless you have luck with some of the more acute ones mentioned above. I would think to induce the required hormone changes naturally would require a duration of ultra low carbohydrate intake, caloric restriction, maybe full ketogenesis ideally.

Hope this gives you some food for thought! I'd reiterate also my suggestion to look into NSI-189, just for my own curiosity if anything haha, IMO it's a very interesting and under-utilised compound.
 
Just as a additional tid bit of information. I have not redosed today and I'm not planning on it tonight. One thing that is very apparent right now is that I have a higher baseline for anxiety now. Nothing even close to the episodes MK677 induced, but I genuinely feel anxious now for no reason and I'm not that type of person unless I'm under pressure. Best analogy to describe the sense I'm feeling in my stomach is that you are waiting for your turn to give a presentation to the class, but the line isn't moving and you're still waiting.

I'm going to go my GP Monday and get some bloodwork and explain what happened as she knows I'm investigating to a degree things that are alternative to traditional methods for injury rehabilitation. She said she isn't willing to give me advice as nothing is FDA approved, but if I feel something is wrong she'll help me.
 
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Good call I think. It's easy to be complacent with these things but obviously these are very new substances acting on physiological pathways which are themselves not well understood. Best not to tempt fate. I don't have PTSD but I have known the pain of directionless anxiety, seemingly uncoupled from any direct influences in the present... definitely want to catch that early. Not sure if you're into this already but just to reiterate - meditation helps a lot - although admittedly it can be a longer and much harder road for those who have experienced serious trauma, sometimes almost an impassable one without some kind of professional assistance. Again, good luck anyway. Please do report back!
 
Ghrelin in the brain is a stress hormone that acts independent of cortisol. Whether this activity is good or bad depends on how long the GHSR1a is activated.

Brain GHSR1a activation is biphasic:
Acute Ghrelin or agonists (GHRP-2, Ipamorelin, GHRP-6, Hexarelin): .
  • anti-depressive
  • anti-anxiety
  • protective of stress
  • potentially neurologically protective
Chronic (non-pulsed) Ghrelin agonists (ibutamoren mesylate (MK-0677) : .
  • depression producing
  • anxiety producing
  • fear conditionoing producing effects of chronic stress
  • potentially neurologically damaging

With that info in mind I might be a better candidate for ipamorelin or sermorelin. I'm just trying to find a way to increase GH/IGF-1 without having to go the route of an exogenous GH source disrupting my own function. BPC-157 is still in my mind, but that is an entirely different avenue of approach that I'm still trying to better understand.

Since last dose (Aug 7) I'd say I still have mild anxiety. A lot more than I had before touching MK677, but it's definitely subsided a great deal and I have lengthy moments with no issues and then I'll get this occasional butterflies in the stomach feeling.

I'd recommend anyone with altered stress responses from life situations to steer very clear of Ibutamoren/MK677.
 
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I get a similar effect from it though not as pronounced. A constant "high strung" feeling and some days are worse than others. I chocked it up to cortisol as gh secretagogues seem to be prone to increasing cortisol, stronger secretagogues seem to release more (hexa has a greater effect than ipa, etc) so I assume the same applies to mk677 which is pretty potent and has a long active life in the body (cortisol could build up).
 
I get a similar effect from it though not as pronounced. A constant "high strung" feeling and some days are worse than others. I chocked it up to cortisol as gh secretagogues seem to be prone to increasing cortisol, stronger secretagogues seem to release more (hexa has a greater effect than ipa, etc) so I assume the same applies to mk677 which is pretty potent and has a long active life in the body (cortisol could build up).

What's strange is that I'm still somewhat disrupted by it and I felt as though my dosaging was still very much conservative to what is considered the max therapeutic dosage. Just had a mild panic attack earlier tonight where my heart just started racing for no reason. Had to sit down for a minute and take some deep breathes, but it was quite a strange phenomenon.

I had to do some CBT exercises quite a while ago for when my PTSD episodes were at their worst so I'm wondering if I can return back to those exercises and gain a little bit more control going into using it in the future if I ever choose to again.

Might just stick to trying to pin BPC-157 at the hamstring and my knees. Seems to be a lot less implications from that.
 
What's strange is that I'm still somewhat disrupted by it and I felt as though my dosaging was still very much conservative to what is considered the max therapeutic dosage. Just had a mild panic attack earlier tonight where my heart just started racing for no reason. Had to sit down for a minute and take some deep breathes, but it was quite a strange phenomenon.

I had to do some CBT exercises quite a while ago for when my PTSD episodes were at their worst so I'm wondering if I can return back to those exercises and gain a little bit more control going into using it in the future if I ever choose to again.

Might just stick to trying to pin BPC-157 at the hamstring and my knees. Seems to be a lot less implications from that.
For it always happened when I had no distractions going on. Then it would feel like my heart is pounding in my chest and my mind woukd be racing. Straight fight or flight feeling. It wasn't unbearable but I may be just experiencing what you are to a lesser degree for whatever reason.
 
For it always happened when I had no distractions going on. Then it would feel like my heart is pounding in my chest and my mind woukd be racing. Straight fight or flight feeling. It wasn't unbearable but I may be just experiencing what you are to a lesser degree for whatever reason.

Yeah I think you may just have a stronger center of gravity regarding your own mind than me. It's just a hell of a mind game to try to tell yourself to get out of fight or flight.

I can manage the fear easily with 0.5mg of clonazepam, but that in itself affects my overall sleep and I find it counter-intuitive to what my main goal is. I'm going to try it again soon and see if I can manage it with something more favorable like gabapentin or even a benadryl.
 
I’ve never felt any psychological effects from Mk-677, only increased appetite and feeling tired if I take it too early In the day. Are you sure that it’s the mk677 causing the anxiety? Were you prone to anxiety Before starting mk677?
 
I’ve never felt any psychological effects from Mk-677, only increased appetite and feeling tired if I take it too early In the day. Are you sure that it’s the mk677 causing the anxiety? Were you prone to anxiety Before starting mk677?

I would say in recent years I've had some mild anxiety, but it's mostly due to life situations changing and just growing up. I am diagnosed with PTSD and at one point took prazosin to manage it. Nothing that has ever been bothered by my past recreational drug use or even other traditional AAS I've exposed myself to. I came into using MK677 with no real expectations and was told to use it at least 2-3 hours before bed as to not disturb the ability to fall asleep.

I'm a heavy marijuana user and that may be a contributing factor as I'm taking it late evening and by that time I've smoked quite a bit. It could also be purely psychosomatic and I'm not in denial against that. It would just be a first for me. I'm scheduled for blood work next week.
 
Something I discovered that may be contributing factor. From Tailor Made's own guidelines regarding MK677...

DESCRIPTION MK-677 is a long active orally bioactive agonist of the GHS-R1a. As such, binds to the same receptor that GHRP2, GHRP6, and Ipamorelin also stimulate. Also called Ibutamoren, it has shown to cause a predictable rise in IGF-1 but unlike other GH secretagogues doesn’t help to decrease adipose tissue. It has been shown to increase lean muscle mass and might be a good candidate for sarcopenic patients with low bone mineral density. In order to reduce the negative effect of somatostatin, MK-677 is best taken on an empty stomach with no insulin in the system.

PROTOCOL Content & Potency: 25mg capsules provided in quantities of 30. Suggested dosage: Take one capsule by mouth once daily on an empty stomach.

I took it at night roughly within an 60-90 minute window from my last meal which is also my largest. My first dose that sent me crawling out of my skin was about an hour after I had gotten back from a steak house and ate a decent size portion of steak tips and sweet potatoes.
 
My money is on somatostatin. I think there could be a lot of individual variation therein, given what a wide range of roles the different somatostatin receptors play in discrete brain regions, and the potent effects that MK-677 has on somatostatin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6240568/

"Oral administration of MK-677 at 4 mg/kg increased peak GH concentrations by 1.8-fold, compared to baseline. However, oral administration of MK-677 for 6 weeks did not increase body growth or serum levels of IGF-I. At 6 weeks after treatment, the GH response to MK-677 was abolished. -- Somatostatin (SST) mRNA expression in the hypothalamus was markedly increased in the treatment group, whereas SST receptor (SSTR)-2 mRNA expression in the pituitary gland was decreased."


CY
 
Something I discovered that may be contributing factor. From Tailor Made's own guidelines regarding MK677...

DESCRIPTION MK-677 is a long active orally bioactive agonist of the GHS-R1a. As such, binds to the same receptor that GHRP2, GHRP6, and Ipamorelin also stimulate. Also called Ibutamoren, it has shown to cause a predictable rise in IGF-1 but unlike other GH secretagogues doesn’t help to decrease adipose tissue. It has been shown to increase lean muscle mass and might be a good candidate for sarcopenic patients with low bone mineral density. In order to reduce the negative effect of somatostatin, MK-677 is best taken on an empty stomach with no insulin in the system.

PROTOCOL Content & Potency: 25mg capsules provided in quantities of 30. Suggested dosage: Take one capsule by mouth once daily on an empty stomach.

I took it at night roughly within an 60-90 minute window from my last meal which is also my largest. My first dose that sent me crawling out of my skin was about an hour after I had gotten back from a steak house and ate a decent size portion of steak tips and sweet potatoes.

I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience with MK 677, me and my best friends live together and were on it for almost a year and we all have anxious personalities, but we never felt it made things worse for us.
We did use Huperzine A as a Somatostatin inhibitor though and we noticed it significantly increased the effectiveness of MK-677 when taking 200ug once per day upon waking up.
We also took MK 677 in the morning on an empty stomach, and also used Melatonin as a Somatostatin inhibitor at night and found it to be effective at 5mg per day taken at bedtime after a meal.
 
I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience with MK 677, me and my best friends live together and were on it for almost a year and we all have anxious personalities, but we never felt it made things worse for us.
We did use Huperzine A as a Somatostatin inhibitor though and we noticed it significantly increased the effectiveness of MK-677 when taking 200ug once per day upon waking up.
We also took MK 677 in the morning on an empty stomach, and also used Melatonin as a Somatostatin inhibitor at night and found it to be effective at 5mg per day taken at bedtime after a meal.

It's all apart of the game of experimentation. Was my first time branching out into anything remotely related to GH/IGF-1. I'll use some of your methodologies and see if I have any better outcomes.

I feel 100% fine now. I think just taking that and the panic attack it caused at such an intense level put me off my usual bearings for a bit. The brain is good at playing tricks.
 
In my very limitless experience with mk667, at around 4mgs i get a bit of hunger, not that noticeable, but at the 24-48h I start to feel a pain in the ankles. Like pines/inflammation. Lasting for hours.

So I have to stoped the experiment. The 3 times I took mk677, seperated by months, the 3 times got the pain in the ankles and wrist

Anyone knows why or how to prevent this?
 
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