Opioids Mitragynine / 7-OH Dosing???

[chicken hoagie]

I guess I will try this again since my first thread failed.

I'm trying to figure out what a comparable dose of oral mitragynine and/or 7-Hydroxymitragynine would be to oral morphine or any other opiate..

Anybody have any studies or personal accounts to answer this?

 

[Binding_Affinity]

Are you referring to extracts or just plant matter?

In my experience, 7+gs of plant matter is comparable to 10-15mg of hydrocodone and 12+g of a clean feeling (not super heavy body high) kratom strain feels like a solid 20mg oxy high. I find that the nodding effect increases at a higher rate with kratom than opiates whereas opiates have an higher increasing euphoric effect compared to kratom. Because of that, for me, it's harder to reach higher levels of euphoria with kratom as I dose higher because I nod hard as the dose increases.

 

[chicken hoagie]

Are you referring to extracts or just plant matter?

In my experience, 7+gs of plant matter is comparable to 10-15mg of hydrocodone and 12+g of a clean feeling (not super heavy body high) kratom strain feels like a solid 20mg oxy high. I find that the nodding effect increases at a higher rate with kratom than opiates whereas opiates have an higher increasing euphoric effect compared to kratom. Because of that, for me, it's harder to reach higher levels of euphoria with kratom as I dose higher because I nod hard as the dose increases.

Hmmm, I think I can agree with this. I suspected a similar dosage comparison as far as full leaf goes..but I have to mix it with a citric acid like orange juice or oranges to get the leaf to break down quick enough in my gut. I find it hard to get an enjoyable experience at more than 8-10g's as the leaf weighs on my gut really hard and can make me nauseas and possibly a bit of headache along with the nausea..

But I was speaking more in terms of extract also..I'm curious as to what the pure alkaloids would be comparable to..say 100mg of mitragynine.

 

[chicken hoagie]

I also agree that it seems to be of more a sedating nature vs euphoric as well...although I have a lot of experience in taking kratom, I seem to continuously learn new perspectives on it. I was recently told that people report strains that are more stimulating can actually be the more sedating strain for people who are naturally high-strung, and vice versa for people naturally not as high strung gaining sedation from red veins..dont know how much I agree with this, as I remember last time I took green malay leaf it was overly-stimulating.

 

[Binding_Affinity]

If you are using citric acid, I think there are some threads floating around that describe the directions for how to extract it without acidifying your stomach too much. It has to do with using the citric acid and water then freezing the little paste balls you end up making with the mixture. Freezing the water is supposed to help lyse the cells because it expands as it solidifies.

Anyway, I agree, kratom has a philosophical aspect to it that's really interesting. It also seems to make a lot of topics more interesting when I'm on it. My roommate and I joke that when we take kratom, it'll be a long night since we spend hours jumping from topic to topic because we're both so invested in bringing things to the conversation, which inevitably involves tying other topics in. Your comment about the strain effects being reversed is intriguing. I notice I don't feel much of anything at all with under 5gs on any white I've tried to date. Above that dose, I definitely feel something similar to reds. It's possible that's simply due to the dose since sedation occurs as that increases. I had a green strain, though, a month back that was more stimulating than all the whites I had before it, which gave me a new appreciation for greens. Because of that, I tend to stick to golds, yellows, and reds cuz their effects are more pleasant and pronounced.

Sorry, I can't really help in terms of extracts. I've heard to stay away from those if possible because of how harsh it is on your tolerance.

 

[chicken hoagie]

If you are using citric acid, I think there are some threads floating around that describe the directions for how to extract it without acidifying your stomach too much. It has to do with using the citric acid and water then freezing the little paste balls you end up making with the mixture. Freezing the water is supposed to help lyse the cells because it expands as it solidifies.

Anyway, I agree, kratom has a philosophical aspect to it that's really interesting. It also seems to make a lot of topics more interesting when I'm on it. My roommate and I joke that when we take kratom, it'll be a long night since we spend hours jumping from topic to topic because we're both so invested in bringing things to the conversation, which inevitably involves tying other topics in. Your comment about the strain effects being reversed is intriguing. I notice I don't feel much of anything at all with under 5gs on any white I've tried to date. Above that dose, I definitely feel something similar to reds. It's possible that's simply due to the dose since sedation occurs as that increases. I had a green strain, though, a month back that was more stimulating than all the whites I had before it, which gave me a new appreciation for greens. Because of that, I tend to stick to golds, yellows, and reds cuz their effects are more pleasant and pronounced.

Sorry, I can't really help in terms of extracts. I've heard to stay away from those if possible because of how harsh it is on your tolerance.

I'm definitely beginning to think that the different strains do not vary too much in effectiveness, and that the manufacturer and the way the leaf is processed and the conditions it was grown in seem to matter a lot more. I could be wrong on this, but I guess I will have to experience the other strains more to find out for sure.

I just started working at a vape / kratom / CBD shop, so trying to learn as much as I can about one of my favorite plants..I've been using it long enough, so I should definitely know everything there is to know about it. Appreciate the input.

 

[Binding_Affinity]

The difference in color is associated with the age of the plant. From what I've read, white leaves are harvested from the youngest plants, green are older, and red are the oldest. So it's all from the same plant. The proposed theory on it is that as the plant ages, the alkaloid composition changes. Why this is, I'm not sure.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the process that occurs will stay the same for WGR leaves, assuming we're talking about a single company exporting their goods. There may be variation but I've always heard processing defined in terms of natural (WGR) vs artificial (YG). So in my mind, the only major difference in processing is seen in the yellow/gold strains which are left out to oxidize in the sun before they're processed in the same way as WGR leaves. One reason why it may be harder to discern why different colors feel different is because different harvesters may have different age brackets that define the color so there may be overlap there; I'm not totally sure.

I think a more significant factor in effects is definitely the conditions in which the plant is grown. So buying strains from different countries will have more pronounced differences than the color from the same country. Buying any type of bali is almost a guaranteed quality strain for me. Thai is decent and I like Malay as well. Not too experienced with Indo strains but I enjoyed the one strain I did get from there. I also liked Borneo but that could be Malay or Indo or the third area which I'm forgetting.

Good on you for learning more about what you're selling! I agree, mitrogyna is quite an interesting plant and it's always fun learning more about why it makes me feel the way it does

 

[chicken hoagie]

The difference in color is associated with the age of the plant. From what I've read, white leaves are harvested from the youngest plants, green are older, and red are the oldest. So it's all from the same plant. The proposed theory on it is that as the plant ages, the alkaloid composition changes. Why this is, I'm not sure.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the process that occurs will stay the same for WGR leaves, assuming we're talking about a single company exporting their goods. There may be variation but I've always heard processing defined in terms of natural (WGR) vs artificial (YG). So in my mind, the only major difference in processing is seen in the yellow/gold strains which are left out to oxidize in the sun before they're processed in the same way as WGR leaves. One reason why it may be harder to discern why different colors feel different is because different harvesters may have different age brackets that define the color so there may be overlap there; I'm not totally sure.

I think a more significant factor in effects is definitely the conditions in which the plant is grown. So buying strains from different countries will have more pronounced differences than the color from the same country. Buying any type of bali is almost a guaranteed quality strain for me. Thai is decent and I like Malay as well. Not too experienced with Indo strains but I enjoyed the one strain I did get from there. I also liked Borneo but that could be Malay or Indo or the third area which I'm forgetting.

Good on you for learning more about what you're selling! I agree, mitrogyna is quite an interesting plant and it's always fun learning more about why it makes me feel the way it does

Yes precisely, it is a great thing to be educated on something especially that you devote to consuming most days. And considering it looks as though it may stay legal, I see the market and popularity only growing bigger for kratom..so being ahead of the game and knowing everything there is to know about it. I remember when I first found out on my own research about kratom in 2013ish, virtually nobody knew about it or ever heard of it.

I certainly did not know yellow and gold strains were rather artificial vs the others..but that is a good point to be made about the originating country. I sure was confused about all the nomenclature with the different colors and country names always swapped around, but it makes perfect sense now that you've explained it. I may be more apt to start comparing different countryside leaves vs worrying about the leaf color. But I do agree that any Bali strain has never seemed to disappoint. I also wonder how potency is affected by the manufacturing process, such as when the leaf is dried out and has long exposure time to oxygen and other gases in the air, and the following trip overseas to the US. This may make a big difference in companies that are now growing and supplying it here in the US vs overseas..similar to how Kava is greatly affected by the cultivation and manufacturing process.

 

[Binding_Affinity]

What I mean by artificial is simply the process by which the leaf gets its color. I'm sure different regions will all have their own unique way of making YG strains which may make the alkaloid profiles differ more than if the same technique was used in all regions.

Glad I could help! I was pretty confused when I started getting into it a couple of years back. Even now, some strains don't make sense, like elephant and dragon strains (both pretty solid from my experience). I wouldn't totally forget about leaf color, but prioritizing origin over color is probably better than the other way around.

I'm also pretty curious on the exact processes in which the leaves are processed but I doubt any company would reveal their secrets haha. It's also interesting that you bring up US growers. I'd probably try it but keep my expectations super low just because of the major differences in cultivation. I don't personally think the quality would be as high as that found in the imported strains but who knows? Maybe it'd surprise me.. Now that I think about it, I wonder if those dragon and elephant strains are just a clever way to not mention that the strains are US grown. Hmmmm..

 

[Keif' Richards]

The issue here is that Mitragynine analogs don't have a formal, approved medicinal use in any pharmaceutical market that I'm aware of, anywhere in the world. The appropriate dosages are all pretty much created and enforced by the users of the plant. There is not a huge wealth of information regarding what is and is not appropriate with Mitragynine alkaloids. It's all going to be complete conjecture and while I'm not saying that it's not possible to establish some informal guidelines, we're not going to be able to but a label on it and take it to the bank. It's still gonna be a guess.

Not to mention the fact that the majority of those who use Kratom are using whole plant preparations and not attempting to refine the plant material into the alkaloids. I don't even think I need to say that the fact that it's even furthermore uncommon in this way is going to make discerning this information pretty difficult. Your best bet is to use what works for you. There are resources out there devoted to Mitragynine and co. but they aren't many.

 

[chicken hoagie]

The issue here is that Mitragynine analogs don't have a formal, approved medicinal use in any pharmaceutical market that I'm aware of, anywhere in the world. The appropriate dosages are all pretty much created and enforced by the users of the plant. There is not a huge wealth of information regarding what is and is not appropriate with Mitragynine alkaloids. It's all going to be complete conjecture and while I'm not saying that it's not possible to establish some informal guidelines, we're not going to be able to but a label on it and take it to the bank. It's still gonna be a guess.

Not to mention the fact that the majority of those who use Kratom are using whole plant preparations and not attempting to refine the plant material into the alkaloids. I don't even think I need to say that the fact that it's even furthermore uncommon in this way is going to make discerning this information pretty difficult. Your best bet is to use what works for you. There are resources out there devoted to Mitragynine and co. but they aren't many.

I have actually found a equianalgesic dosage chart that compares 10mg of oral morphine to other common opioids where 7-OH is mentioned..

Equianalgesic - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It looks as though it is 17 times as strong as oral morphine...0.6mg being roughly equal to 10mg of oral morphine..unfortunately it doesn't mention mytragynine, the much weaker but much more common alkaloid in the plant.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I have actually found a equianalgesic dosage chart that compares 10mg of oral morphine to other common opioids where 7-OH is mentioned..

Equianalgesic - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It looks as though it is 17 times as strong as oral morphine...0.6mg being roughly equal to 10mg of oral morphine..unfortunately it doesn't mention mytragynine, the much weaker but much more common alkaloid in the plant.

Okay, that is great actually. I have to admit that my ghoulish, pale fingers have been pretty far from the pulse of the Kratom-using community. At least we have some kind of benchmark from which to start. Like you said hoagie, it's unfortunate that we don't have the exact information we need, but this is actually a lot better than what I thought we had.

 

[chicken hoagie]

Okay, that is great actually. I have to admit that my ghoulish, pale fingers have been pretty far from the pulse of the Kratom-using community. At least we have some kind of benchmark from which to start. Like you said hoagie, it's unfortunate that we don't have the exact information we need, but this is actually a lot better than what I thought we had.

Suspected Adulteration of Commercial Kratom Products with 7-Hydroxymitragynine

Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa), a plant native to Southeast Asia, has been used for centuries for its stimulant and opium-like effects. Mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine, exclusive to M. speciosa, are the alkaloids primary responsible for Kratom's biologic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There is even more useful info on kratom. Looks as though 7-OH is the opioid to be after..although mitragynine is much more abundant, albeit 1/3 the potency of oral morphine..there are many other analogous alkaloids in kratom, so all of the alkaloids as a whole of course adds to its potency..

"For example, concentrations of mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine in raw M. speciosa leaves range between 23.6–24.0 μg/mg and 114–134 ng/mg, respectively"

This calculates out to about 24mg of mitragynine per gram of leaf and 0.12mg of 7-OH per gram of leaf.

So if I consume roughly 10 grams of regular leaf, I should expect to consume 240mg of mitragynine(roughly equal to 80mg of oral morphine) plus 1.2mg of 7-OH(roughly equal to 20mg of oral morphine).

I would then expect a very strong response to 10 grams of leaf then, no?

Turns out I have consumed 10 grams of leaf..Now ingesting pure leaf could be different, as all of the plant fibers and cellulose would definitely serve to greatly slow absorption of the alkaloids. And although I have had very noticeable effects from consuming this much leaf, I can't agree that it would be the same as if I were to ingest an 80-100mg morphine pill.

Furthermore the report suggests that many manufacturers are actually adulterating their product with extra 7-OH. So I'm a bit split on the research as of right now..it appears as though I need to try strains of leaf from differing countries, and perhaps compare this to raw extract where alkaloid content is known.

 

[negrogesic]

Based on the commonly quoted figures of 7-hydroxymitragynine being 13x as potent as morphine and 46x as potent as mitragynine, then the assumption is morphine is 3.5x more potent than mitragynine. Thus, 35mg mitragynine = 10mg morphine. Based on average alkaloid content, this would mean 5g of kratom would be equal to about 30mg of morphine...which may not seem quite right, but considering that mitragynine is a partial agonist, this may make sense.

 

[chicken hoagie]

Based on the commonly quoted figures of 7-hydroxymitragynine being 13x as potent as morphine and 46x as potent as mitragynine, then the assumption is morphine is 3.5x more potent than mitragynine. Thus, 35mg mitragynine = 10mg morphine. Based on average alkaloid content, this would mean 5g of kratom would be equal to about 30mg of morphine...which may not seem quite right, but considering that mitragynine is a partial agonist, this may make sense.

Ahhh, so mitragynine is considered a partial agonist as well? I wonder what the ceiling dose would be then..similar to how buprenorphine has a ceiling effect at 16mg. What is the term used to describe a drug's max efficacy? "Max effective concentration"? It certainly does not seem to add up, despite these figures...although I imagine with further pharmacological research into these compounds will cause those stats to change..

 

[negrogesic]

Ahhh, so mitragynine is considered a partial agonist as well? I wonder what the ceiling dose would be then..similar to how buprenorphine has a ceiling effect at 16mg. What is the term used to describe a drug's max efficacy? "Max effective concentration"? It certainly does not seem to add up, despite these figures...although I imagine with further pharmacological research into these compounds will cause those stats to change..

Yes, both mitragynine 7-hydroxymitragynine are partial agonists (this is why they can precipitate withdrawal in some people and explains their somewhat dirty feel). It may also explain the lack of overdose deaths and lower abuse potential seen with kratom. And finding equivalent doses is always tricky with partial agonists. For instance, 1mg of parenteral buprenorphine is said to be equal to 75mg of oral morphine, but the subjective effects are quite different.

 

[chicken hoagie]

Yes, both mitragynine 7-hydroxymitragynine are partial agonists (this is why they can precipitate withdrawal in some people and explains their somewhat dirty feel). It may also explain the lack of overdose deaths and lower abuse potential seen with kratom. And finding equivalent doses is always tricky with partial agonists. For instance, 1mg of parenteral buprenorphine is said to be equal to 75mg of oral morphine, but the subjective effects are quite different.

Ahh, yes very interesting indeed..I very much agree with this and makes a lot of sense. Just started my first day at a vape/kratom/CBD shop...picked up some treats my manager recommended.

He told me to start with only 1/8 of the taffy chew because of how strong it is, but of course I called his bluff and let 3/4 roll around and melt in my mouth for sublingual absorption(the alkaloids are said to be highly bioavailable through mucous membranes). So I should know how it goes fairly quickly. The packaging seems awfully misleading though being only 20mg extract on the chew..but if it is mostly 7-OH, then that could explain its strong potency. Will report back shortly.

 

[chicken hoagie]

Hey ya'll. Crazy enough i googled this thread and found my own post, that I am STILL looking answers to years later!

So with kratom supplements getting big upgrades recently, the new OPMS capsules contain it says:

Roughly 150mg of pure mitragynine per cap and "<7mg" of 7-OH per cap (which, for being a 3 pack, this is quite a lot for over-the-counter!!)

Ill be going to pick some up in the coming hours down the street at the BP gas station, coming off lucy and stims. Will let everyone know how it goes..

I was also considering to try snorting one since its an extract.

I had 1 single opportunity last year to I/V pure mitragynine. I was on methadone but hadnt had my dose for two days, and 50mg produced significant euphoria VERY similar to heroin, but of course the leftover methadone made my version of significant, not that significant to most. I imagine 50mg IV of mitragynine to a newbie would get whopped. Lol.

 

[Glouphrie]

Hey ya'll. Crazy enough i googled this thread and found my own post, that I am STILL looking answers to years later!

So with kratom supplements getting big upgrades recently, the new OPMS capsules contain it says:

Roughly 150mg of pure mitragynine per cap and "<7mg" of 7-OH per cap (which, for being a 3 pack, this is quite a lot for over-the-counter!!)

Ill be going to pick some up in the coming hours down the street at the BP gas station, coming off lucy and stims. Will let everyone know how it goes..

I was also considering to try snorting one since its an extract.

I had 1 single opportunity last year to I/V pure mitragynine. I was on methadone but hadnt had my dose for two days, and 50mg produced significant euphoria VERY similar to heroin, but of course the leftover methadone made my version of significant, not that significant to most. I imagine 50mg IV of mitragynine to a newbie would get whopped. Lol.

Recently got into kratom after a few unsuccessful attempts over the years. Found mixing it with DXM at low doses produces just about the most euphoric high I've ever had. I use ~7g raw leaf and ~150mg DXM and it's unreal. Have developed quite the habit.

I've tried 7g of leaf on its own, I think it tests at 15mg mit and .5mg 7OH per gram and that, to me, feels like a solid 15-20mg of oxycodone. Add in the DXM and it beats every IV opioid I've ever had in the hospital (hydrocodone, hydromorphone and morphine).

Going to experiment with some more combos and extracts hopefully over the next couple months.

Kratom + kanna extract had me faced like a downer roll. Added DXM (this is extremely dangerous don't do it) to that and it was too much by far.

Going to try raw kanna, kava, kava extracts, amanita, and some other plants and potentiators for dopefully a good time. I want to create a large spectrum of tinctures to help people transition down from harder stuff.

 

[chicken hoagie]

Tried 2 O.P.M.S. BLACK capsules. Contents on the back reveal a whopping 148mg(48%) mitragynine and <7mg of 7-OH per capsule. About 1.5 hours in, either mixed mu agonism with nmda antagonism or mu agonism, but noticeable tingle in lower extremities that i only get with ketamine or very rarely achieved through very strong opiates nowadays. Had i taken the 3rd one, i would have probably had to take a nap.

This is quite remarkable only because i have only been off of my suboxone a few weeks and i have a somewhat perma-tolerance from years of suboxone use.