Pharmacology Methylone is better than MDMA change my mind

[someguyontheinternet]

Some really neat research coming out around methylone recently. Studies show that it works when administered alongside SSRIs, it is better tolerated than MDMA with less ADRs, more stable cardiovascular readings, less off target effects with little binding to tested GPCRs, less depletion of serotonin for less risk of neurotoxicity, and likely less neurotoxic metabolites (this one is my own assumption feel free to write it off)

Frontiers | Methylone is a rapid-acting neuroplastogen with less off-target activity than MDMA

BackgroundPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a highly prevalent psychiatric disorder that can become chronic and debilitating when left untreated. Avai...

doi.org

I highly recommend reading the recently papers mentioned in the intro, particularly the human trials and the FST with SSRI coadmin and comparison

 

[reverse cosmosis]

Methylone triggered a 2 year long bout of extreme acute depression in me and anecdotally has done the same in several other people I know.

I know yada yada research this anecdotes that sample size controlled environment double blind blah blah blah

But I'm telling you this is a known phenomenon

 

[lofidelity]

I think mdma is one of the most dangerous drugs out there mentally. Have been preaching this for years. After shooting it, I had a crippling headache for months

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Methylone triggered a 2 year long bout of extreme acute depression in me and anecdotally has done the same in several other people I know.

I know yada yada research this anecdotes that sample size controlled environment double blind blah blah blah

But I'm telling you this is a known phenomenon

Abuse of any serotonin release has the potential to do this I think, but the risk with methylone is lower than MDMA

 

[Littana]

I think mdma is one of the most dangerous drugs out there mentally. Have been preaching this for years. After shooting it, I had a crippling headache for months

next time predose with some common sense maybe?

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Some really neat research coming out around methylone recently. Studies show that it works when administered alongside SSRIs, it is better tolerated than MDMA with less ADRs, more stable cardiovascular readings, less off target effects with little binding to tested GCPRs, less depletion of serotonin for less risk of neurotoxicity, and likely less neurotoxic metabolites (this one is my own assumption feel free to write it off)

Frontiers | Methylone is a rapid-acting neuroplastogen with less off-target activity than MDMA

BackgroundPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a highly prevalent psychiatric disorder that can become chronic and debilitating when left untreated. Avai...

doi.org

I highly recommend reading the recently papers mentioned in the intro, particularly the human trials and the FST with SSRI coadmin and comparison

Can t change your mind i share the same view, finally someone.
Who doesnt downgrade bk-MDMA to MDMA-lite. Its miles above.

Yeah, hail someguyontheinternet, gave him ya praise.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Past the rudimentary psychopharm that is our current level of understanding of how drugs work in the brain, 3mmc hasn't been around long enough to know how it really affects people. It's been some 13 years, whereas MDMA was first synthesized over 100 years ago and had a lot of use before it was made illegal.

Interesting study, if preliminary, recent and from some reputable institutions, using rats and yet necessarily. But even the study itself is indicating that 3mmc might be useful because of similar effects as MDMA, not that it's better. Maybe they're saying it's more selective in some respects.

Still think that we can't divulge much from psychopharm at this point, and that social science statistics tell more about how drugs work.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Past the rudimentary psychopharm that is our current level of understanding of how drugs work in the brain, 3mmc hasn't been around long enough to know how it really affects people. It's been some 13 years, whereas MDMA was first synthesized over 100 years ago and had a lot of use before it was made illegal.

Interesting study, if preliminary, recent and from some reputable institutions, using rats and yet necessarily. But even the study itself is indicating that 3mmc might be useful because of similar effects as MDMA, not that it's better. Maybe they're saying it's more selective in some respects.

Still think that we can't divulge much from psychopharm at this point, and that social science statistics tell more about how drugs work.

You do have a point, social factors are incredibly important when considering the effects of a drug. We should keep in mind the entire system when analyzing a part of it.

What that means to me is that we can study these various factors of protein binding, in vivo behavior, etc but that's only a small part of the picture. The environment shapes how each individual processes information and responds to stimuli whether that's sensory or chemical ingestion. Many of the clinical studies have a fairly low N but taking the pharmacodynamics into consideration, along with both the (yes, limited) clinical data, as well as the results of the SSRI + methylone combination FST rat study that there is a significant difference between the side effect profile and likely usefulness for MDD and PTSD patients due to common use of SSRIs in these populations

The preliminary results show all the benefits of MDMA with maybe a bit more even AND less side effect risk which is why I find this absolutely fascinating

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Past the rudimentary psychopharm that is our current level of understanding of how drugs work in the brain, 3mmc hasn't been around long enough to know how it really affects people. It's been some 13 years, whereas MDMA was first synthesized over 100 years ago and had a lot of use before it was made illegal.

Interesting study, if preliminary, recent and from some reputable institutions, using rats and yet necessarily. But even the study itself is indicating that 3mmc might be useful because of similar effects as MDMA, not that it's better. Maybe they're saying it's more selective in some respects.

Still think that we can't divulge much from psychopharm at this point, and that social science statistics tell more about how drugs work.

3-MMC is crap that would never been made were there no Politics.
Sad it however illegal-ing is the DOC kids these days & still available easy,
that + Alcohol, Weed and those Nicotine salts vapes. GHB/GBL and K.
They also have acces to good quality MDMA, Coke [though Levamisole in 10/ 20 %] and Speed all reasonable price.

so alarming.

4-MMC, the one drug i on purpose never bought, intuition,
i d be taking it regularly till the ban. at worst the reason. .

Thanks to reading UK reports on her, HR at best.

I tried 3-MMC, i don t get it. Methylone or Khat yeah great drugs.
MDPV i did dare, 2 vendor s to be sure, it sucks imo. Fiending, horney ?
Not me.

Not worth the effort, like 4-MMC is not worth the risk.

3-MMC well a mystery only a yougsta could explain.

 

[fairnymph]

Maybe it’s safer, but it’s not as enjoyable, ime. I didn’t even find it worth doing twice.

 

[4DQSAR]

For YEARS Dutch smart shops were selling methylone in solution with vanilla extract as a 'room odorizer.' so I think it safe to say that far more people consumed it than people imagine.

I just found it to be a quite mild MDMA-like compound and didn't bother taking it twice. Not when the staff were selling MDMA behind the counter ;-)

Sure, MDMA CAN cause harm but Shulgin in the 80s (I believe) stated that no more than 1.5mg/kg bodyweight orally not more often than once every 6 weeks. So I stuck to that rule-of-thumb. ANY psychoactive can produce addictive behavior in some people but I have to question if use of MDMA is particularly dangerous or if those who become addicted and abuse it run into problems.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

I definitely understand there is a high decree of subjective preference when it comes to recreational uses, due in part to what the user expects or wants out of the experience. I view drugs as tools in a toolbox. They all do different things in sometimes similar or sometimes radically different ways.

The title was intentionally hyperbolic, but I made the statement through the lens of treatment for psychiatric patients rather than recreational usage.

This is some pretty new research based on the relationship between the two compounds pharmacologically. The ability to retain efficacy could be genuinely world changing for patients in these populations who are unable to go through the 1-3 month process of SSRI discontinuation required for MDMA therapy.

SSRI discontinuation can cause dramatic emotional dysregulation which can be detrimental for those suffering from PTSD and MDD. Avoiding that process opens up many new patients to trying entactogen/empathogen assisted therapy who would have been previously excluded.

 

[4DQSAR]

Well, MDMA most certainly works for PTSD. I was part of a study and it certainly made my life more bearable.

In my case myself and two friends were caught in an explosion. I survived. I've felt guilty for surviving for the last 25 years. I didn't survived unscathed - I'm held together with metal plates and pins, but I am alive. For now.

 

[deficiT]

Just wanted to mention that Methylone is not 3mmc, it's bk-mdma. So not sure where the references to 3mmc are coming from. Although I think the article only called it Methylone.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Methylone is fine with me or bk-MDMA.
3-MMC has no place here it at best a crappy stimulant,
no emphatogen. AlphaMethylPhenyl, mentioned it.
I tried it/ described it and mentioned its weird the youth here
love it, while the originator Methylone was long forbidden,

though probably more satifying and safer. Politics, i miss it.

Khat/ Qat is better then all the shit they tried with Cathinone s.
And Methylone was the best, long shot ime.

And when i was using MDMA that was OK, but the comedown pff.
Reasonably dosed bk-MDMA seems more relaxing, the ability to sleep.
Could be a good replacement for Alcohol.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Some really neat research coming out around methylone recently. Studies show that it works when administered alongside SSRIs, it is better tolerated than MDMA with less ADRs, more stable cardiovascular readings, less off target effects with little binding to tested GCPRs, less depletion of serotonin for less risk of neurotoxicity, and likely less neurotoxic metabolites (this one is my own assumption feel free to write it off)

Frontiers | Methylone is a rapid-acting neuroplastogen with less off-target activity than MDMA

BackgroundPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a highly prevalent psychiatric disorder that can become chronic and debilitating when left untreated. Avai...

doi.org

I highly recommend reading the recently papers mentioned in the intro, particularly the human trials and the FST with SSRI coadmin and comparison

Kinda interesting as the viable studies running use MDMA or 5-MAPB.
While from personal experience this -one feels the most benign,
especially considering kids and people with previous experience.

It would be my preference as therapeutic emphatogen.

 

[lofidelity]

next time predose with some common sense maybe?

There will certainly never be a next time with that one. Scared to death of it.

Luckily shortly after that headache episode I violated my parole and was sent to a prison diversion boot camp style program for 5 months. I'm grateful for that period of sobriety and mandatory exercise and nutrition otherwise I don't know that would've ever fully recovered

Common sense was not in the repertoire those ten years ago, unfortunately

 

[Smyth2]

BK-IMP [100608-69-3]

BK-Imp

BK-Imp | C13H17NO | CID 82101165 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.

pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

5-MAPDI (Indanylmethylaminopropan) [1310153-27-5]

5-Mapdi

5-Mapdi | C13H19N | CID 57461970 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.

pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[4DQSAR]

Wow - I'm guilty of making mistakes when drawing structures but if it were going into a journal, I HOPE I would ask someone else to check it. The thing is, isn't the vast majority of the subjective effects caused by the compounds modulating the levels of extracellular monoamines? The primary amines DO appear to produce some of their effects due to 5HT2 activity (hence MDA feeling a lot different to MDMA) but it's still more the shading rather than the overall effect that is modified.

One of the people who are working on commercializing 5-APB and 6-APB was on BL for a while. I noted that both of the compounds and all of their N-alkyl derivatives had been in a 2004 (?) patent and asked how they intended to protect their own products. The response was interesting. Like MDMA, 5/6(M)APB and their relations all have two isomers. He mentioned that it was the detail that the ratio between the two enantiomers allowed for a spectrum of different effects. It was this ratio optimization that was being patented. I thought that a really inventive way of providing patent protection that made the entire project finanically viable.

I pointed out that (R)-AMT and (R)-7-methyl AMT are both a 5HT2a ligands AND a monoamine reuptake inhibitors (so both trippy and huggy) BUT (S)-AMT and (S)-7-methyl AMT is not a 5HT2a ligands... but ARE monoamine reuptake inhibitors (huggy). He came back to me about a week later and mentioned that they intended to test various isometric ratios. I don't know what happened then. He didn't seem to post after that. I assume he had noted that BL might be a good place to get ideas and while it's certainly not my own invention, I'm not aware of anyone having resolved the tryptamines.

In retrospect I did something VERY stupid. A letter containing 250mg of each isomer arrived in the post. To save time I vaped tiny amount of each isomer and had my wife measure the mydriasis each one produced. A damned stupid way of doing things. But it worked and I'm still alive - could have gone worse, I guess.

A few specialist supplier offer the optically pure materials.

It's one of those 'holes' in knowledge. I GUESS it's because AMT was actually studied during the 1920s and again in the late 1960s but the way the patents were written included mentions of the two isomers but on closer examination, there is no mention of a single enantiomer ever being specified.

Sadly, even though Dan was alive at the time, I didn't think to ask him if he had been involved in Upjohn's work on those two tryptamines. It simply never occured to me. Then again, Dan (in his own words) admitted that in all the excitement of discovering BDPC, he FORGOT to test if the p-Me homologue was as active. FORGOT!!!

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Wow - I'm guilty of making mistakes when drawing structures but if it were going into a journal, I HOPE I would ask someone else to check it. The thing is, isn't the vast majority of the subjective effects caused by the compounds modulating the levels of extracellular monoamines? The primary amines DO appear to produce some of their effects due to 5HT2 activity (hence MDA feeling a lot different to MDMA) but it's still more the shading rather than the overall effect that is modified.

One of the people who are working on commercializing 5-APB and 6-APB was on BL for a while. I noted that both of the compounds and all of their N-alkyl derivatives had been in a 2004 (?) patent and asked how they intended to protect their own products. The response was interesting. Like MDMA, 5/6(M)APB and their relations all have two isomers. He mentioned that it was the detail that the ratio between the two enantiomers allowed for a spectrum of different effects. It was this ratio optimization that was being patented. I thought that a really inventive way of providing patent protection that made the entire project finanically viable.

I pointed out that (R)-AMT and (R)-7-methyl AMT are both a 5HT2a ligands AND a monoamine reuptake inhibitors (so both trippy and huggy) BUT (S)-AMT and (S)-7-methyl AMT is not a 5HT2a ligands... but ARE monoamine reuptake inhibitors (huggy). He came back to me about a week later and mentioned that they intended to test various isometric ratios. I don't know what happened then. He didn't seem to post after that. I assume he had noted that BL might be a good place to get ideas and while it's certainly not my own invention, I'm not aware of anyone having resolved the tryptamines.

In retrospect I did something VERY stupid. A letter containing 250mg of each isomer arrived in the post. To save time I vaped tiny amount of each isomer and had my wife measure the mydriasis each one produced. A damned stupid way of doing things. But it worked and I'm still alive - could have gone worse, I guess.

A few specialist supplier offer the optically pure materials.

It's one of those 'holes' in knowledge. I GUESS it's because AMT was actually studied during the 1920s and again in the late 1960s but the way the patents were written included mentions of the two isomers but on closer examination, there is no mention of a single enantiomer ever being specified.

Sadly, even though Dan was alive at the time, I didn't think to ask him if he had been involved in Upjohn's work on those two tryptamines. It simply never occured to me. Then again, Dan (in his own words) admitted that in all the excitement of discovering BDPC, he FORGOT to test if the p-Me homologue was as active. FORGOT!!!

aMT could very well be viable for therapy, although I worry about interactions with common psychiatric meds due to the possibly MAOI activity. I definitely agree that enantiomer ratios is incredibly useful in creating different effects. There is already some research on R and S MDMA and I would be excited to see some pharmacodynamic data on R and S methylone