Methadone, Bupe and gasp Codeine!

[Stiffeno]

About 4 months ago i was at the peak of my codeine addiction, i was taking a minimum of 400mg of codeine a day (about a pack of Panafen Plus +10 pills). Unlike some of the smart addicts on this website who utilized cold water extraction to remove Ibuprofen and paracetamol...i however was a moron and did not!

And i didnt think i had a problem, till i was noticed by family members as i stole money, hocked things around the house and went out "shopping" which consisted in visiting every chemist in the surrounding suburbs! And coming home with no money and 6 packs of codeine goodness!

Well after living like that for a year and a half i started getting serious problems, cramps 24/7, not being able to crap for a week at a time...just to name a few problems. My family stepped in and my gf dumped me, well i started to go see Psychologists to try and work out the problem. I was seeing the Psych for around a month or 2 but all her tactics for quitting werent working, i tried quitting cold turkey countless times...getting to about day 2.5 before the cramps, sweating and BONE PAIN got the best of me...i went back to using full throttle, 15 pills a go minimum.

I did some further research online and found the "Centre for addictive Medicines, Sydney"...i went there and they did a whole battery of the normal tests, blood, urine, the works. Well they found my liver was thankfully in tact and not damaged (though i probably have ulcers). The suggested 3 possible routes, the 1st was to quit cold turkey and take various pills depending on which symtoms i got (valium for anxiety and stress, various pain kills for my back and teeth) basically i was gunna be on like 5-10 different pills (not to good fore my liver) and not only that; and this is the ironic bit, i cannot swallow pills....yes i was addicted to a pill but cannot swallow them...

I use to crush them up and mix with water and drink the whole poison lot of it down! A lot of the medicines i would need to take cannot be crushed as it impares their effectivness, someone who is scared of swallowing pills doesnt wanna worry about getting all of them down every single day for months at a time!

Option 2 was Buprenorphine...specifically Suboxone. Option 3 was Methadone (we all felt this was a bit drastic) so after talking with my family over the matter for a few days we chose to select Bupe (Suboxone) treatment. They juggled the dosage around before settling at 16mg a day for a while...but then things got worse, i started getting mega cravings again after being sober (on the bupe) for 2.5 months...i used again for a few days. I went back to the doctor and explained everything and he put me up to 24mg a day for 3 doses, and then if i was stable to move up to (and sit at) 32mg a day for a while.

Well im now at 32mg and the cravings are here on a daily basis, my backache which was nearly cured at the start of Bupe is now back in full force (i suffer from lower; and soon to be proven, upper spine Scoliosis - which is where the bone actually begins to curse putting pressure and causing massive backaches).

Apart from the cravings being very bad at times (today i took an extra 8mg sub film for a total of 40mg today) and i feel STILL like i need to use and my back is horrivble, ive tried things doctors have offered for the back such as Ibuprofen and a bombardment of other things whichy didnt work! I went to see a pain specicialist but was screwed around and never got to see an actual doctor there! Ill probasbly need surgury on it actually in the near future!

Anyways i was recently a few weeks back transfered from the Sublingul pill form Sub to the film version, the film actually takes LONGER to dose i found due to it acting like toffy and drying my mouth out...its taken me 45mins at times to dose the full 32mg....

Anyways i rang my case worker today and told him i wish to get OFF Suboxone maximum dose, and be put onto a SMALL, but Adaquet dose of Methadone! He isnt realy liking the idea too ,uch but im seeing him and my prescribing doctor tomorrow and talk about it. I wish to go on Methadone small dose so 1. I can just drink it like a shot glass of wiskey and go about my busniess (not sit there for 30mins hoping i dont swallow as to not waste the dose) and 2. So i can get the cravings undercontrol again. Methadone would also work as a great pain med for my spine problems...even though the case worker said they arent helping me to fix my back...it still would work in that respect!

I want something i can just drink in 2 seconds and go about my business and/or job without wasting so muuch time dosing! Even with the 4 take homes a week i get i still need to sit like an idiot not talking nor swallowing just to get the full affect of the drug which againt even fully covering me anymore...i just thing Methadone sounds much more appealing to me and ni hope i can convince my doctor as such!

P.S: Yes i know everyone on these forums get up in arms when someone admits to being on "just codeine" but the pain and cravings are more then real, and if 32mg of bupe isnt doing me good (even as much stronger then codeine it is) i need something different! Because i know if my doctor doesnt agree to the methadone thing, ina few months ill probably relapse again...and if i dont kill myself by accident from all the ibuprofen and paracetalmol first...ill just end up on something heavy like heroin for sure or coke! Because at the peak of my addicting the codeine at massive doses was doing nothing for me, the next step would be heroin and im scared to death of the idea!

Id rather be ridaculed as an idiot for being on Methadone for codeine, then relapse and end up with a codeine addiction that leads to a full blown heroin shooting up addiction!

Thanks a lot! Stiff!

 

[MrIbis]

you realize bupe has a ceiling dose of 32mg right? beyond this it's pointless. What you have done, considering you only had the equiv. of 40mg a day of morphine addiction to get over, is got yourself HORRIBLY addicted to bupe.

All I can really say is Good Luck, you're gonna need it. From the time you go cold turkey on the bupe, expect probably up to 6-12 weeks of pain and suffering.

Bupe dose of a codeine dependence like that would be 1-2mg a day. Bupe is extremely potent, you don't do much research do you?

I was on tops 14mg per day for an 8ball a day heroin habit. (3.5g per day). When i came off cold turkey it took me about 6 weeks to feel normal, and about 12+ when i used methadone for a similar habit.

Again, Good Luck, you're gonna need it.

P.S, if you're already thinking about heroin (i cant see why you mentioned coke, as it won't help an opiate addiction), might as well sign the death warrant and go find a dealer now, because those feelings won't go away probably up until you die.

 

[Stiffeno]

you realize bupe has a ceiling dose of 32mg right? beyond this it's pointless. What you have done, considering you only had the equiv. of 40mg a day of morphine addiction to get over, is got yourself HORRIBLY addicted to bupe.

All I can really say is Good Luck, you're gonna need it. From the time you go cold turkey on the bupe, expect probably up to 6-12 weeks of pain and suffering.

Bupe dose of a codeine dependence like that would be 1-2mg a day. Bupe is extremely potent, you don't do much research do you?

I was on tops 14mg per day for an 8ball a day heroin habit. (3.5g per day). When i came off cold turkey it took me about 6 weeks to feel normal, and about 12+ when i used methadone for a similar habit.

Again, Good Luck, you're gonna need it.

P.S, if you're already thinking about heroin (i cant see why you mentioned coke, as it won't help an opiate addiction), might as well sign the death warrant and go find a dealer now, because those feelings won't go away probably up until you die.

You say that 1-2mg of bupe a day is fine, then how come when i was on 8mg at the start of my treatment i was feeling terrible? if my addiction was so small why did i experience more pain then ive felt in my life while trying to cold turky it?

And i know what real pain is, apart from having damaged teeth causing years of daily pain, the scoliosis cant be horrible....and then when i had to havde 2 teeth pulled that were badly infect, they gave them numbing infections (4 of them) but due to the infection i got whats known as a "hot tooth" and basically felt full pain of the teeth being extracted. To the point where in a matter of seconds i had sweat my entire bodies silohette onto the table i was lying on.

Now given all that, the cold turky was worse....

I understand where you are coming from but even if i need to stay on Suboxone (or Methadone) for the rest of my life i really dont care, my life is basically living pain so an addiction in the grand scale of things doesnt bother me. Atleast if im stable on Methadone i wont be risking my life with possibly contaminated street drugs or poisoning myself with a leathal dose of paracetamol.

Although i think you are over rating Bupe, on paper its strong but in actual effect...im not so sure!

Oh and ive always had an addictive personality, which is why id rather be on maintenence treatment then risk relapse or worse!

EDIT: I will be looking into a VERY TINY dose of Methadone for its effect of stopping the cravings, helping my back pain and keeping me off dangerous drugs!
I almost know for a fact i will relapse, its in my very nature....BUT, id rather be on a tiny dose of Methadone then risk a chain event of worse and worse drug addictions....YES i will be addicted to the Methadone, yes im obviously addicted to the Bupe now, but its still better then injecting possibly spiked heroin in an ever increasing dose which by the end will either be too expensive to maintain, or down right kill me.

I am NOT affraid to be addicted to a medicine if it helps my lifestyle, and you saying i may as well sign a death warrent and find a dealer is just downright negative thinking. Ill be an addict YES, but ill be on top and control it to!

EDIT 2: Ive basically been in pain every day for thr last 13 years, im sick to death of it. If a lifelong addiction to Methadone (a tiny dose) is what will stop it, then dose me up scotty! I cannot take it anymore.

Oh and once i see the specialist about my back again ill almost certain ill need back surgeory, which will in turn require me to go on pain killers for not only the healing process but maybe even the maintenence from the Chronic pain...ive had Chronic pain for 13 years give or take...one way or another its gunna be some type of drug to stop it, i just want to make sure its a safe (and legal) one!

EDIT 3: Most mornings i need to slowly roll over onto my side, grab the bars of my bed and use physical strength to life myself up as i cannot life under its own back power....im 25 years old....25 with chronic pain.
I am 6"0 so i have a pretty long back so that too puts extra pressure on my spine!

 

[opi8]

Coke? How would that help any of your problems?

Getting on 16mg of bupe a day from 400mg of codeine is overkill, I think the doctors have been negligent in treating you.

Methadone is going to be worse than bupe to get off, which are both much worse than codeine.

You're getting yourself in a much worse situation by going on opiate maintenance. Learn how to do a CWE, get back on codeine and taper off that.

Edit: saw your reply after posting.

It sounds like you've made up your mind and you don't want to get off opiates at all. Do you honestly think you will be able to maintain your "tiny" dose of methadone? I imagine you'll end up on a huge dose of methadone and unable to increase it, plus in the end won't help with your pain at all. You will also have a shit-ton of side effects and a physical dependance to methadone which will take years of your life to get off and put you through more pain than you can currently imagine possible.

It's your life mate.

 

[Stiffeno]

Coke? How would that help any of your problems?

Getting on 16mg of bupe a day from 400mg of codeine is overkill, I think the doctors have been negligent in treating you.

Methadone is going to be worse than bupe to get off, which are both much worse than codeine.

You're getting yourself in a much worse situation by going on opiate maintenance. Learn how to do a CWE, get back on codeine and taper off that.

I only mentioned the coke cos a lot of addicts have/use it at some stage in their lives. I just wanted to point out how you go from drug to drug looking for a high and so forth, i dont really know the strengths of various drugs so if coke being mentioned as a strong drug them sorry lol, im no drug expert (as im sure yall know by this point of the thread).

As for going back on codeine even using a cold water extraction its both expensive and time cumsuming...im forced to live with my mother right now due to being kicked outa home by my gf, and mum straight up told me if i go back onto codeine or any other drug a doctor hasnt prescribed for me, she is going to disown me and throw me out of home....onto the street! And she means it 100%, she has done it before!

As i said in my previous posts edits, i suffer chronic pain so pain killers of some sort are gunna need to be a part of my life for the forseeable future, if i can be stable on a tiny dose of methadone (even if for life) ill do it!

I didnt seek addiction help because i wanted to be sober, i done it so i didnt die of liver failure. And if i go back onto codeine i KNOW ill be ever increasing the dose, i tried cold turky and cutting down, even super slowly...and i failed ever single time, all ive got is maintenence treatment, or possibly go as an inpatient and rapid detox, but i suffer from severe depression and anxiety for the last 8 or so years...so a hospital setting is very unappealing to me!

And as i said about the chronic pain, i HAVE to be on something...but being in my direct control like CWE codeine i know ill OD evenually.

EDIT: I havent 100% made up my mind yet, and even if i do i still need doctor permission do so, i will be pleading all my listed reasons to my doctor and also will take his advice...as he is the expert here not me. But he must know that i feel the Bupe just isnt cutting it, weather im put on Methadone or if he suggests something totally different, something needs to change where the Bupe is conceared...and i dont just mean upping the already maxed dose!

 

[Crankinit]

If bupe isn't working for you, then it sounds like methadone is your best bet. Some people find bupe a great painkiller, some don't, and it sounds like you're in the latter catagory.

I'm honestly amazed that you managed such a high dose of bupe going onto it after codeine, but I've heard of it happening before.

If staying opiate free just isn't an option for you (and I can sympathize 100% with you there, chronic pain sucks), then just push for the methadone, it's better to be on a legally prescribed and regulated dose than returning to destroying your body with OTC codeine pills or escalating to stronger street drugs like heroin.

I do have two suggestions though, the first is to look into methods of slowing down the rate at which your tolerance increases. There are various easily available drugs and supplements (magnesium, DXM and other dissociatives, just off the top of my head) that supposedly will slow down your tolerance and you're going to want to do that as much as possible. Doctors will only allow you to increase your methadone dose so far and so fast, and you don't want to be in the position of being dependant on a massive dose of methadone but still not receiving adequate pain relief.

The second is to look into alternative methods of pain management. I realize that there's nothing out there that will help in the way opiates do, but that doesn't mean you should dismiss the alternatives completely. Look into physiotherapy, exercise, stretches, muscle relaxants/anticonvulsants, TENS machines, therapeutic heat lamps (I find these in particular amazing for my back). basically anything that will reduce your pain levels will allow you to keep your dose lower for longer, extending the period of time for which opiates will be useful for me.

Good luck mate.

 

[piebald]

wait..you did 400 mg's of codeine and someone put u on 16 mg's of suboxone..then bumped it up to 32...are you kidding me?

 

[Stiffeno]

wait..you did 400 mg's of codeine and someone put u on 16 mg's of suboxone..then bumped it up to 32...are you kidding me?

They started me on 8mg and it wasnt helping, then they moved me up to 16mg, i use to do double doses (32mg) so i only needed to dose every 2nd day. Recently i relapsed and started using codeine a bit, so they bumped me up to 24mg for 3-4 doses and then finally stuck me onto 32mg.

I, like everyone on this forum agrees that 32mg a day is super high for my addiction but anything less just wont work for me, ive tried codeine tappering, cold turky...you name it. And now the Sub even at the ceiling effect of 32mg a day isnt stopp all the cravings and my back pain is through the roof.

Which is why i would rather be on a small SMALL SMALL as i can stand dose of methadone, then be on a maximum dose Suboxone. It will both work better for my pain and cravings, and will save me 30mins of every day dosing, the pills take forever to dissolve for me (even when i added water to my mouthh before hand) and the film version is even worse!!! It took them 45mins to disolve the first time i took em.

I dose at a chemist rather then a clinic anymore and my chemist also offers methadone, im sitting there like an asshate for 15mins, when a methadone patient walks in, doses in 2 seconds and is on his way...and im STILL sitting there like an asshat! Its wasting my time and isnt working like it should/use to!

Edit: To simply answer your question, yes they put me on 16mg and then 32mg of Suboxone for a 400mg a day codeine addiction!

 

[Stato]

Just curious, why did you double your dose from 16 to 32.. that's insane man.

 

[Stiffeno]

Just curious, why did you double your dose from 16 to 32.. that's insane man.

If you are talking about double dosing i did it so i only had to dose every 2nd day.

If you mean why did i up dosage from 16 a day to 32mg a day, well while on 16 i relapsed and started using, i went and seen my case worker and doctor and told them the truth that it wasnt holding me (note i did NOT ask to be upped, i never have). At this stage giving me starting to use again after a perfect slate of never missing a dose/appointment nor getting a hot urine test...they moved me up to 24mg for a few days and then straight up to 32mg.

Im not happy with the sub to be honest and would like to try a small but adaquet dose of methadone. I dunno an exact mg which would be good for me, but something under 30 i think! Maybe much lower even!

 

[Mr Blonde]

I think the reason that they needed to up the dose for Stiffeno is because he already had a pain condition that needs addressing. This complicates the issue, as he wishes to treat his opioid dependence but also needs to treat his pain. So whilst a 400mg codeine habit may seem small to some of us (*cough* Mr Blonde *cough*), for him it wasn't just about getting high but also treating his underlying condition. Hence why his buprenorphine doses needed to be higher.

The methadone may work better as a treatment for pain as it is a full opioid receptor agonist as opposed to the partial agonism of buprenorphine. I think you should definitely discuss this with your case worker and doctor, bring in any research you've done and have your reasoning for wanting to switch set out clearly for explaining to them. And definitely get on to getting medical treatment for that scoliosis, there are a couple of other BL'ers who suffer from it who may be able to post in here and offer advice.

 

[Stiffeno]

I think the reason that they needed to up the dose for Stiffeno is because he already had a pain condition that needs addressing. This complicates the issue, as he wishes to treat his opioid dependence but also needs to treat his pain. So whilst a 400mg codeine habit may seem small to some of us (*cough* Mr Blonde *cough*), for him it wasn't just about getting high but also treating his underlying condition. Hence why his buprenorphine doses needed to be higher.

The methadone may work better as a treatment for pain as it is a full opioid receptor agonist as opposed to the partial agonism of buprenorphine. I think you should definitely discuss this with your case worker and doctor, bring in any research you've done and have your reasoning for wanting to switch set out clearly for explaining to them. And definitely get on to getting medical treatment for that scoliosis, there are a couple of other BL'ers who suffer from it who may be able to post in here and offer advice.

Just got back from my family GP, he checked my back and even just having me bend over and touch my toes, while running his hand along my spine he was able to see scoliosis...even without an xray, howevcer he has setup an appointment for me to have my entire spine xrayed this time, and not just my lower back as was done last time (the majority of the pain is in the upper back tese days but also still lower back).

I will be very surprised if i dont need surgury!

I will take this new xray information with me also tomorrow when i see my Bupe Dr and case worker!

 

[piebald]

Just curious, why did you double your dose from 16 to 32.. that's insane man.

its retarded...32 mgs ? that makes NO sense at all....your better of with codeine.! they actually bumped you UP to the subs from the codeine..that kinda blows me away..I was SERIOUS about recovery from oxy and doing about 160-200 mg's a day and I was FINE on around 8 mg's of suboxone! was I "high" ?? No..but i didnt get sick. i had no withdrawls, i prolly would have taken more had they offered but 8 mg's was enough to keep me from getting sick! That shit is STRONG and i think some doctors just hand it out like candy..kinda pisses me off...of course im not a doctor, i have no real educated opinion but if your looking to "NOT BE SICK" a low dose of sub will work!! 32 mgs is just mental!

 

[Crankinit]

Yeah I've actually heard of quite a few scenarios where the dose of bupe that holds a person compared to their previous habit varies tremendously. I'd guess it's something to do with being a partial agonist, and possibly just the psychology and metabolism of the individual. In general it seems that the doses used to simply prevent W/D's are a lot lower than those for people who need the drug to keep them psychologically 'well' and kill cravings, or the doses to manage pain.

But this is all just speculation from reading, I have very little experience with bupe and none with using it in a maintenance situation.

 

[Stiffeno]

Yeah I've actually heard of quite a few scenarios where the dose of bupe that holds a person compared to their previous habit varies tremendously. I'd guess it's something to do with being a partial agonist, and possibly just the psychology and metabolism of the individual. In general it seems that the doses used to simply prevent W/D's are a lot lower than those for people who need the drug to keep them psychologically 'well' and kill cravings, or the doses to manage pain.

But this is all just speculation from reading, I have very little experience with bupe and none with using it in a maintenance situation.

Many doctors have told me that i have a super high or fast metabolism...if that matters at all. I actually for years suffered with an inability to gain any weight...ever. For 6-7 years i never gained any weight, i was 62-64 kilo for 5+ years. After being on Suboxone for 4 months ive actually gained nearly 10 kilos....the weight gain might be a negative side effect for most ppl, but for someone bordering on anorexia, it was a god send! Now at about 72 kilo and only need to gain 3 more kilo to be the "perfect" weight for my height (which is 6"0).

Purhaps my superman like metabolism makes my body use up the Bupe faster then it should, in fact when i was describing my feelings of 16mg to my doctor i actually said "a 24 hour dose feels literally like 16-18 hour dose"....looking back it just might be my body processing the drug faster...which is why i need so much...on top of the fact im a chronic back pain sufferer too!

Also when it comes to take home meds how much (in Aussie law) is able to be taken home after starting on say Methadone at a small dose? I currently get 4 days worth of takehomes per week for my Suboxone. Since i never had a hot urine result, never missed a single dose and always attend appointments i was allowed take homes fairly fast...though i hear that you need to wait longer for Meth take homes right?

I actually get paranoid when i get my take homes of Sub, coz im on 32mg a day right now at the start of the week i make my way home via train with 16x 8mg Sub films...if a drug addict new i would probsably be robbed in seconds lol...or at the least harrassed to sell my dose (which i would never do since i need it)!

Edit: And for the record apart from the first few days of dosing, i never got "high" from 32mg...some might find that odd with such a high dose but its true.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Also when it comes to take home meds how much (in Aussie law) is able to be taken home after starting on say Methadone at a small dose? I currently get 4 days worth of takehomes per week for my Suboxone. Since i never had a hot urine result, never missed a single dose and always attend appointments i was allowed take homes fairly fast...though i hear that you need to wait longer for Meth take homes right?

They will usually make you wait a couple of months before you get takeaways, depending on your behavior on the program. I think that the law varies from state to state; in QLD I have seen up to five days of takeaways being given out at once from the pharmacy and even more sometimes if the patient is going to be leaving town for some reason and has been a reliable and good participant of the program. Other states will vary, and some might not be as lenient in handing out large amounts of takeaways.

 

[Stiffeno]

They will usually make you wait a couple of months before you get takeaways, depending on your behavior on the program. I think that the law varies from state to state; in QLD I have seen up to five days of takeaways being given out at once from the pharmacy and even more sometimes if the patient is going to be leaving town for some reason and has been a reliable and good participant of the program. Other states will vary, and some might not be as lenient in handing out large amounts of takeaways.

Yeah that sounds reasonable, the chemist in which i dose at now also offers Methadone so i wouldnt need to switch where i visit (my chemist is literally only 1 suburb away which is handy dandy).

Since ive been what you would call an honest patient im sure they would allow me takehomes fairly quick...

Edit: I read a few other forums and some ppl said that some ppl on long term Suboxone/Subutex would actually be better off on a small dose of Methadone =/

 

[opi8]

Some people on some forums saying something that someone's friend's mate might have seen fourth hand is no substitute for a doctors opinion.

 

[Stiffeno]

Some people on some forums saying something that someone's friend's mate might have seen fourth hand is no substitute for a doctors opinion.

Which is why im seeing both my case worker and my Bupe Doctor 1 hour from now

 

[MrIbis]

hey man, just incase you thought i was ragging on you, i wasn't.

I see this as an all too familiar case of Doctor Negligence. I think you personally didn't know enough to make the informed choice.