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Mental "Illness" - or Shamanism?

infectedmushroom

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Is mental illness, specifically the more misunderstood and debilitating (in terms of our current social structure) ones like schizophrenia and bipolar, a result purely of chemical imbalances and environmental factors which needs to be medicated? Or is that these people are, as Terence Mckenna amongst a few others liked to think, Shamanic?

It would be especially interesting to hear the views of people who have been diagnosed or have experienced these sorts of states.

I know this is a broad topic with many pathways of discussion but I would love to hear what others think.

I have a strong intuition that there is some purpose behind these states, to what extent it is constructive for humanity I am still very unsure.
 
There's a good joke that McKenna used to describe the problems of medical definitions; "I was at the library and I saw a book called, "Mad" I picked it up and started looking through the symptoms and it was then I realized that we're all mad and I fit nearly every symptom."

Self-diagnosing yourself, is in itself, a dangerous pass time. The thing with Shamanism is (to me) more about perception & perspective.
 
Ive gone to amazing places on drugs or even with meditation. Ive given up trying to convey to people on terrafirma the things Ive learnt because language seems to be lacking. I can only explain what I see in paradoxes and symbols that make sense to me personally. Other people dont understand them so Ive given up trying to explain.

Lately I dont take psychoactives around other people and unplug the phone. That kind of mystical experience is a private experience, meaningful to me and meaningless on the most part to others.

I mean with MXE the other week, lol, I sorta thought I was a horse haha Now I know that sounds mental and Ive no doubt you will think it was too but it was more an identification with the horse in me lol

It was a really precious, shamanic, experience but I'm certain the world at large will never understand it no matter how I try to frame it.

Can you see how if I start to explain I'm likely to be nutted off? You probably think I''m a loon now.. imagine if I rang my mum and told her I was feeling a bit horsey?
 
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^I understand what you mean. I've heard that associating with a certain animal isn't an abnormal spiritual experience though.

I'm more wondering about people who have a life history of mental "illness" and feel it's debilitating effects, for example I have a bipolar friend and she clearly suffers immensely when depressed and the pain is still clear in her eyes when she's normal or manic. I'm wondering what spiritual meaning, if any, is behind this? If we're all mad, why is it that some appear to control their madness less or moreso then others? Ergo why would someone choose to bring such isolation and pain upon themselves?
 
Well if it's recognized as a choice or familiar factors/symptoms then you change the perception of how it's viewed and the reaction to the factors/symptoms. It's very hard to challenge modern medicine though. If these things can't change on their own and a doctor has been sought, advice given, then perhaps it's best to go with the prescription.
 
^I think it's important we do question modern medicine.

It seems many people placed on these medications do not recover or improve but are zombified or indeed make the symptoms worse, leading me to believe modern medicine has about as much of an idea of whats going on as the schizophrenic man on the corner.
 
i don't think the healthcare system knows what it's doing at all. they run off statistics and theories, but mostly have no experience themselves with the state, and so cannot truly empathize.

i think that schizophrenic people (and autistic people, in a similar way) have a useful role to play, and are misunderstood due to developing an entirely different system of emotions and language-associations. schizos and autistics have to develop "extra empathy", with an overactive mirror neuron system, in my opinion, because they've developed such a different way of looking at the world.

schizos have a difference in working memory, sort of like ADHD, but different in the sense that their cognition and thinking literally seem to spill out into the environment (and internally, the environment seems to be a part of thinking). i think that, in the past, shamans were the subset of the population with this specific difference in working memory. it's interesting that they used to be trusted with spiritual matters, but are now collectively drowned out.

spirituality itself, in my opinion, is sort of a controlled schizophrenia, sometimes individual and sometimes collective (e.g. inducing speaking in tongues among members of a congregation, something i've witnessed). spiritual feelings leading to religious beliefs, like the feeling that everything happens for a reason, are definitely related to schizophrenic type thinking in my opinion.

i won't share my diagnoses but this is a very personal issue in many ways.
 
I think that it is first just accumulated, then later in the cycles, it gets to affect a person, then often they perpetuate it with hostility or dwelling or something like that. So now you're feeding it.

As for a purpose.. I'd wager negative reinforcement.
 
I think the water analogy is good to describe the similarity/dissimilarity between them. It says that the mystic or shaman is in the same waters as the psychotic or schizophrenic, but the shaman can swim while the schizophrenic struggles and ends up drowning.
 
In order for the healthcare system to deem someone mentally ill, their mentations necessarily debilitate them. It seems to me if you play an important role (of any definable kind) in any community, you're probably not all that debilitated. Mental illnesses and thought problems are all just exaggerations -- way too much or way to little -- of perfectly normal human mental states. We've all felt the mentations that characterize schizophrenia, bipolar, major depression, and other mental diseases from time to time. Just not nearly with the frequency, intensity, duration, or inappropriateness that sufferers of these disorders do.

I suppose there are different cultural thresholds for how much is too much. I've definitely been places where many people walking around depressed and/or drunk all the time is taken for granted. There are definitely shamans in some traditional cultures who'd have a bed in a ward, rather than a seat of honor, if they lived anywhere outside their communities, for the number of odd perceptual, thought, and speech processes they exhibit. But if the community has a place for such a person, I think that's wonderful.

Might some people who are diagnosed as schizo or bipolar actually have special powers, gifts, or forms of insight, and just be completely misunderstood and disbelieved? I've often wondered about this. Anybody who really did have some form of superpower or ability to communicate with some otherworldly probably would get locked up. I never got the whole argument about why wouldn't a person with real supernatural or extraterrestrial powers just sell their services for a lot of money. In the clinical cases I've read about people claiming these sorts of things, they don't tend to have much of any control over when it happens and how it goes down.
 
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^The lost, forgotten shamans of the western world methinks.

We simply don't have a framework for understanding and utilising those abilities, and i'm sure the powers that be don't like it either. It seems that there is a lot of stigma surrounding mental health keeping proper exploration of it's potentialities outside of normal society very limited.
 
^I understand what you mean. I've heard that associating with a certain animal isn't an abnormal spiritual experience though.

I'm more wondering about people who have a life history of mental "illness" and feel it's debilitating effects, for example I have a bipolar friend and she clearly suffers immensely when depressed and the pain is still clear in her eyes when she's normal or manic. I'm wondering what spiritual meaning, if any, is behind this? If we're all mad, why is it that some appear to control their madness less or moreso then others? Ergo why would someone choose to bring such isolation and pain upon themselves?

it seems to me like its possible you want there to be a connection to justify their suffering. i think in modern society many people survive things they shouldn't, severe mental illness could be one of those things IMO. in many primitive societies the handicapped and mentally ill were done away with because they do have such a difficult chance at life

i have a friend that i think has arguably suffered more after almost dying than i imagine he probably would have had he died. He had a devestating head injury that caused swelling in his brain and was then diagnosed with a very rare auto immune disease that almost killed him for about 4 months. all this happened to him in the first few years of high school. since then he developed PTSD and has had problems with schizophrenia. he has since turned into an alcoholic and a hermit that binges on the occasional prescription meds he can get.

i say this because i believe that death although not desirable is a part of life and often times i think we preserve life to the utmost extent. i think sometimes the quality of life post being "saved" could be worse. I would also like to say that this is not always the case many people that survive life threatening events feel more alive than they ever have. i dont state this as fact, just a thought.
 
McKenna had some interesting ideas.. but this whole shamanic thing is way over blown. We're talking about primitive people with a lot of superstitious beliefs. No one ever talks about the other tribes like the Australian Aborigines who can use "dream time" without the use of psychedelics, who can do some quite extraordinary things.

To suggest that mental illnesses are somehow "shamanic" is wishful thinking IMO. Actually I think the idea of possession is more likely than any shamanic state, in regards to schizophrenia. The one thing you realize when using psychedelics or through meditation etc is that there IS life in the mental/spiritual dimension.. and not all of it is friendly. That and we're small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.

McKenna will lose a lot of current rapport if nothing happens at the end of 2012 too. Something to remember.
 
So all you did was say, "Hey someone found out when we'll all die through the I-Ching and a computer". But you, what, didn't find out what the I-Ching was or meant to be?
 
There's a big different between shamanism and mental illness... namely the environment one is in when getting these mental perception changes...
 
other tribes like the Australian Aborigines who can use "dream time" without the use of psychedelics, who can do some quite

Is that confirmed? I thought the whole dreaming process was a secret and respected by Australian legislative and common law.
 
The Aborigines did in fact use mind-altering plants....
 
I don't like a lot of McKenna's theories. The word "shaman" is such a loaded term these days. Shamans come from Siberia. How this term came to be applied to neo-tribal mysticism and anyone who believes in it is beyond me. I live on the west coast a lot of the native groups here call them "plastic shamans". It's always white people looking for a quick fix to spirituality. They pay hundreds of dollars to join apprenticeships that have no real power. If you want to connect to the earth, then just go out into the woods and meditate there. Plenty of messages will come to you. You don't need charlatants and thousands of dollars to do it. [/rant]

Anyway... to answer the OP's question, I wouldn't frame this as a 'shamanic' issue. I would, however, say that a lot of people with mental health issues as well as addicts are often extremely sensitive people who have been exposed to intense environments that they cannot handle. The repeated trauma leads people to seek answers, or self-medication, through narcotics. These sensitive people almost always have some kind of psychic ability, like clairvoyance, clairaudience, etc. They lack the support mechanisms to really delve into what it is they are seeing and experiencing. These sensitives have not been trained in proper boundaries, so they become over-exposed to intense forces, and they often don't realize or take for granted that other people are not experiencing what they are.

Schizophrenia is a real mental illness. Sufferers experience sensory perceptions that have a negative impact on their function and that try to manipulate them into doing things against their will. I've been able to see auras since birth and my life has been filled with paranormal events; I thought I was crazy until I met another clairvoyant who was seeing the same stuff as me at the same time, and could describe it in intimate detail. Unlike schizophrenics, the things I see don't try to manipulate me - they are just phenomena that I am observing and can make qualitative judgments about. When I walk away from what I'm observing, I no longer see it or experience it. I've been around schizophrenics. Their auras always have disturbances that denote them as being mentally ill, and I never see the things that these individuals say are there in the room. They are images being projected by their own minds - they are not things that are really there, on any level, including the physical, etheric, or astral.

Because mainstream medicine has no grasping of psychic phenomena, an innocent patient who is psychic may end up being labelled a schizophrenic. Imagine growing up in a haunted house like I did, where doors would slam, there would be creepy footsteps down the hall at night, scratches in the ceiling, and a feeling of being watched even though you are alone; now imagine taking that info to say, an MD, or a psychiatrist. Because they are totally based on empirical data, and there is no modern proof of these paranormal things, they are more likely to deem you insane. I never had to do this though, because my entire family, and friends who would sleep over, would all comment on the same things.

Secret agencies like the CIA and MI5 are fully aware of psychic phenomena. They employ psychics to do things like remote viewing on a regular basis, or to be present during interrogations. Psychics are never 100% accurate but they have a much higher accuracy rate than the average person, and they can usually read people like a book. However, the government still denies that such things are real.

If you want to see real research about this stuff you need to consult Russian sources. The mainstream of western science has been heavily influenced by the social pressures of religion, but the Russian sources have not.
 
Foreigner, yours is a fascinating story, and simply serves to highlight the most salient and important feature of being mentally ill -- being psychologically damaged and debilitated. If you can cope just fine with life, have friends who care about you, a job that pays the bills, and a mind that doesn't feel frequently tortured, then you're not mentally ill, no matter how unusual your experiences, thoughts, or behaviors may be. If these experiences, thoughts, and behaviors are ones that you can integrate well into both your personal narrative as well as the social narrative taking place around you, then they're not problems.

From an anthropologist's perspective, yes, the only true shamans (the few that remain!) are indigenous Siberians and Manchurians. This term has been borrowed fully into English, though, and its meaning extended. I don't really know why, since English already has native terms like mystic and medium that describe essentially the same thing. Let's get all deconstructionist and analyze why seekers from the Anglophone world felt the need to shy away from frank, established words like mystic, and instead rebrand themselves with a foreign word that's associated with tribal peoples. I posit this represents either a cringe away from indigenously Anglo forms of mysticism from days gone by, or a "noble savage" sort of attraction to more traditional cultures, or both. The latter is well documented, but the former intrigues me more. What is there about indigenous Western mysticism that embarrasses or disinterests many modern day Westerners?

Your point about "California religion" is astute. I would tell any aspiring seeker, first of all, that they don't need to hire a personal guru. I'd tell the person to read as much literature about mysticism and the esoteric as they can get their hands on. A book is paid for once, doesn't change what it says, and can be put down at any time. A person can lead you on. If someone insists on learning mystical techniques with the help of a guide, I'd tell the person to read everything they can find that that guide has written, and be sure they get the right vibe and the right message before entertaining (to say nothing of paying for!) this person's presence. And even then, never fully let your guard down.

Because the fact is, mysticism is personal more than shared. Techniques for achieving mystical states can be read about and mastered entirely on one's own. Achieving mystical states of union is not easy for the vast majority of people, and unlike paying someone to do your taxes, hiring help doesn't make it easy. A lot of people want their mysticism and spirituality like they want their food -- hot and fast. Well, you get what you pay for.
 
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