MEGA - Thinking about joining the military.

[spork]

Shifting to E&C

 

[rangrz]

def dont do it for money, doit because you think it the right the to do.

otherwise, your half assed attemps get inthe way of the people who are willing and happy to be fighting the good fight.

 

[Cyc]

What if it's not the right thing to do?

 

[Heuristic]

OP,

If it's what you want to do, and you have all the information, then go for it. You can enlist for a short hitch, and then decide whether to re-up or apply to college, or for some vocational training.

It certainly couldn't hurt to talk to a recruiter about the subject, though do NOT let the recruiter be your sole source of information.

There will be benefits. Certainly the camaraderie, the discipline, the sense of self and strength, and the self-confidence, are all benefits and virtues. You'll know that you're serving your country honorably, which will become an achievement that no one will ever be able to take from you. You'll make life-long friends. You're going to have to read the fine print, but there may be substantial money for college down the line, as well as hiring preferences for veterans by various government agencies. The physical training will be tough sometimes, as will the more mental aspects, but you'll likely enjoy large parts of it. You'll get to run around, shoot things, and blow things up--at least in training, and, depending on your specialty, perhaps through the course of your service as well. And it's certainly a fine item to add to a resume.

Now... there are other aspects. SNAFU (situation normal: all fucked up), BOHICA (bend over: here it comes again), FUBAR (obviously), etc., are all well used acronyms in the military for a reason. There will be a fair sized helping of chickenshit. Much of your training will be unpleasant. Much of your service may be physically unpleasant. You will have long road marches with heavy rucks through blistering heat. You will wonder why God didn't put more skin around your elbows and knees. You will acquire a newfound appreciation for the ability to use the latrine or sit down. You will have moments where you find yourself saying "what the fuck did I get myself into now?" You may lose some of those life-long friends. You may--though in all likelihood you won't--lose your own life or sustain wounds or injuries of a life-altering nature. You may very well be assigned to a specialty that is considerably less glorious or action-oriented than you had envisioned.

You will have to learn how to function as a team with people that you may, at times, not like. You'll have to adapt to a variety of new circumstances. You WILL be challenged.

Some things to consider:

How far away are you from a GED? Is it worth getting one BEFORE enlisting?

Can you get a GED while in service? If so, REALISTICALLY, would you be able to do so?

You should be in excellent physical condition before entering basic training. Your recruiter, should you opt to enlist, can help with that, but the earlier you start, the better. You should also start preparing for the ASVAB, as your score on that will impact your assigned specialty. Research the basic training process before you go, so that you'll know what to expect, and memorize in advance the various items that drill sergeants will demand you know. Read some biographies and non-fiction books on soldiers, special operations, etc., and derive from them inspiration and the proper mindset.

Most importantly: No matter what, stay positive and do not quit. Keep a sense of humor in the face of adversity. Learn to calm yourself down when you have quiet moments, and enjoy them.

If after doing your research---by which I mean talking to the recruiter, asking questions of serving personnel, asking questions of ANYONE who might have information, reading the fine print, etc.---you think the military is a good fit:

Then go for it. It will certainly be a transformative, challenging, and positive experience.

 

[Cyc]

Great post, Heuristic and certainly a good personal list of things to consider before enlisting.

I'd like to explain the post I made before Heuristic's. I think it's important that you should have an appreciation for U.S. foreign affair policies, and be able to stand behind your Country's involvement in other nations. Don't be one of those "I'm just doing my job" soldiers who enlist without seeing, appreciating, and agreeing with the bigger picture.

So many U.S. soldiers I talk to either don't care, or disagree with U.S. foreign policy. To me, that's the ultimate sell out.

 

[Heuristic]

I'd like to explain the post I made before Heuristic's. I think it's important that you should have an appreciation for U.S. foreign affair policies, and be able to stand behind your Country's involvement in other nations. Don't be one of those "I'm just doing my job" soldiers who enlist without seeing, appreciating, and agreeing with the bigger picture.

So many U.S. soldiers I talk to either don't care, or disagree with U.S. foreign policy. To me, that's the ultimate sell out.

I hear what you're saying Kyk, but I disagree. I think reasonable people can disagree on this though. Let me just say quickly why I happen to disagree.

The US has a professional military that is wholly subjugated to the civilian government. Elected officials make policy, and the military follows, ultimately, their orders. Unfortunately, that means at times that the military will be used to implement policies that are unwise---or possibly, to some extent, unjust.

However, the alternative is a military that has veto power over anything the civilian government orders, which is the end of democracy.

So, if we are to have a democracy, with a military subservient to the elected government, then we need a military that will implement policies even when that military, or large portions thereof, disagree with that policy.

Part of serving as a professional soldier is an understanding of that fact. One must accept that sometimes the civilian government will implement policies with which one disagrees. One must understand and believe that, overall, the government is legitimate, that it must be allowed to make reasonable mistakes, and that, so long as the policy is not unacceptably immoral or illegal, the civilian government has the right to order the policy be implemented.

Soldiers will debate foreign policy all the time. There WILL BE and ARE strong, emotional disagreements. But in the end, the job is to implement the policy. PFC OP or Lt OP or Gen OP is not an elected official.

This is NOT to say that the military should blindly follow orders. There are unlawful orders and unacceptably immoral orders, and these SHOULD be disobeyed. And there are heroic examples in recent military history of soldiers doing just that.

Now, clearly if one thinks that the war in Iraq or Afghanistan is unacceptably immoral or unlawful, one should not join the military. But I don't think mere DISAGREEMENT with either of those policies is necessarily a sufficient reason to not join.

 

[Cyc]

I'm not sure we do disagree. I agree that the military should be controlled by the elected government. With that in mind, the military needs to be seen as a pawn of said government. Therefore, if the elected government's initiatives disagree with the values of regular civilians, I'd expect that this would be reflected by a shortage in military recruits.

My message is simple. If you don't agree with your elected government's foreign policy, don't personally volunteer to be a part of the problem. Meaning, don't just factor in the risks, but factor in your values. You are not working for the army, you're working for the government. The army is simply the intermediate body through which you work.

It's not your duty to join the military. It's a choice. The only thing that concerns me, Heuristic is when you say, "I don't think mere DISAGREEMENT with either of those policies is necessarily a sufficient reason to not join."

Well, if you disagree with the war in Iraq, and you join the military and get deployed to Iraq, I think your disagreement was ample justification to begin with.

 

[Heuristic]

^ yeah, I think we're actually pretty close on this.

My view may differ slightly in that I believe that even if one happens to disagree with an aspect of foreign policy, it might still be worth it to join, even though that means furthering, or executing as competently as possible, a foreign policy one thinks to be flawed. So, for example, someone who disagrees with Iraq might nonetheless volunteer because 1) even though much of the military is deployed to Iraq, at one point or another, the military serves many other vital missions as well, and the opportunity to help with those missions is worth being deployed on a mission with which he disagrees, 2) foreign policies change, 3) he might feel obligated to serve regardless, understanding that a professional military is vital to his the enjoyment of his freedoms and wishing to pay what he views as his dues.

Now, all that said, if the individual thinks Iraq is a horrific evil that he could not in good conscience take part in, then I agree that he should not join.

That's why I said "mere disagreement" is "not necessarily sufficient." Disagreement COULD be sufficient reason not to join, depending on the type of disagreement and one's other values/reasons, but it isn't necessarily sufficient.

 

[Cyc]

I see what you're saying. As long as every recruit is able to keep the bigger picture (not just the U.S.) in perspective, then it's their decision.

Still, I can't help but get the impression that the U.S. military is looking for warm bodies sometimes. In Canada, we get a lot of U.S. television and some of those commercials strike me as (comically or tragically, depending on my mood) inappropriate considering how grave and controversial the situation is.

 

[rangrz]

What if it's not the right thing to do?

then dont. It will cause you psychological trauma if your forced to do things you believe are wrong. It will also mean you won't give it your all. Which puts you and your comrades at even more risk then they would other be.

if you disagree with it, don't join. please?

 

[Heuristic]

I see what you're saying. As long as every recruit is able to keep the bigger picture (not just the U.S.) in perspective, then it's their decision.

Still, I can't help but get the impression that the U.S. military is looking for warm bodies sometimes. In Canada, we get a lot of U.S. television and some of those commercials strike me as (comically or tragically, depending on my mood) inappropriate considering how grave and controversial the situation is.

I think the US military is looking for qualified individuals who want to serve their country in the form of military service. Their target demographic is young males and females with a strong sense of patriotism, and the commercials you see are aimed at that demographic.

It's not really just about collecting warm bodies, though every recruiter likes to see high numbers... they want people who can be truly dedicated. Because lives will depend on them.

Also, military training and service really do have certain benefits that one would be hard pressed to find elsewhere. Commercials and recruiters are presenting a case, of course, but there is a fair amount of merit in that case.

 

[Cyc]

Indeed, a free ride through College and good resume experience is certainly nothing to scoff at.

 

[IGNVS]

im thinking of joining the airforce.

my logic is as follows: free college money, good workout program, way to get random connections that might help you later on in life, travel, free medical and dental care, and other benifits... and more important than that: we must be the change we wish to see in the world

you see there is some fucked up shit going on, that we dont have control over. to even have the oportunity to do that you need to be in a position of authority and responsibility.

if someone gives you orders its on their head. if you really think that some of the stuff that goes on should be diferent then you gotta be the one giving the orders. you need to work your way up and until then you need to follow.

but that will eventually give you the chance to be the one to make the desisions you think are right.

how much do you want to change the fucked up stuff thats going on? well, enough that you would sacrifice all that to get to be the one to make the desision?

just saying that military is fucked up isnt doing anything, you have no power to change shit. if you wanna fix things you gotta play the game until your the one in charge.

 

[Cyc]

you see there is some fucked up shit going on, that we dont have control over. to even have the oportunity to do that you need to be in a position of authority and responsibility.

if someone gives you orders its on their head. if you really think that some of the stuff that goes on should be diferent then you gotta be the one giving the orders. you need to work your way up and until then you need to follow.

but that will eventually give you the chance to be the one to make the desisions you think are right.

how much do you want to change the fucked up stuff thats going on? well, enough that you would sacrifice all that to get to be the one to make the desision?

just saying that military is fucked up isnt doing anything, you have no power to change shit. if you wanna fix things you gotta play the game until your the one in charge.

That is a very, very slippery slope to justify joining the army. I'm all for moral relativism and seeing the bigger picture, but that's stretching it to the fringe. Even if you make some sort of command position, it will be largely based on your ability to follow orders and motivate other people follow orders. That won't change because you level up a rank, or two... or three.

Even in the best case scenario, you're going to be part of the problem. St. Peter isn't going to look down on you from the pearly gates and say, "Son, you almost made it. A few more years and you could've revolutionized the U.S. army and turned it from a tool of corporate greed into a defensive militia working for the public. Get in here, ya bum!"

But hey, whatever gets you through the night.

 

[RedLeader]

im thinking of joining the airforce.

my logic is as follows: free college money, good workout program, way to get random connections that might help you later on in life, travel, free medical and dental care, and other benifits... and more important than that: we must be the change we wish to see in the world

you see there is some fucked up shit going on, that we dont have control over. to even have the oportunity to do that you need to be in a position of authority and responsibility.

if someone gives you orders its on their head. if you really think that some of the stuff that goes on should be diferent then you gotta be the one giving the orders. you need to work your way up and until then you need to follow.

but that will eventually give you the chance to be the one to make the desisions you think are right.

how much do you want to change the fucked up stuff thats going on? well, enough that you would sacrifice all that to get to be the one to make the desision?

just saying that military is fucked up isnt doing anything, you have no power to change shit. if you wanna fix things you gotta play the game until your the one in charge.

The military actually physically changes the world, yes. But it does so at the command of the government behind it. So sure, you could climb the latter and reform the miliary in ways where it would run better and such, but ultimately in the big picture, you'll only be changing the military on a micro level; what it does on a macro level is out of its hands. Case-in-point, you could improve procedues within the military to better restrict things such as the Abu Ghraib scandal from occuring, but you could not have prevented the Iraq war. So be ready to question whether the changes you wish to be are specifically within how the military is organized, or what it is ordered to do, regardless of how morally good or bad it is.

You could't rise to the top and then say "No, Mr. President. My men will not be doing that." It dosen't work like that.

So ask yourself what exact changes you want to make, and think about going into the military verses going into politics or law.

As a disjoint point, the whole "be the change" reason for joining the military, I feel, is not actually the correct attitude to have. It's one that I see as easily breaking.

Think about it. If everyone who joined the military joined it with the rationale that you've adopted, then theoretically everyone would want to rise to the top and make change. It's good to be motivated, yes, but this would lead to competition. Fierce competition. Not only does competition tend to bring out the worst in people, but it would also distract you from the more important things - the projects that your military group, as a unit, are to set out and acheive. 99% of military people are pretty subserviant and have little voice. So I think a bit of a reality check (that you likely will end up in that majority) is needed - if you don't rise as quickly as you can, are you prepared to follow orders and work as an effective unit (even if it means doing things you disagree with)?

Just my $0.02

 

[slimvictor]

Because you don't agree with abortion, you feel it is okay for you to kill people???
Is there some logic there that I just can't find?

SubAbusePro says that joining the service can turn your life around ....
Maybe you will become a much happier, less lazy person once you have successfully killed men, women, and children that you have never met.
Maybe you will be much more successful in life with post-traumatic stress disorder.
Maybe losing your leg or arms or fingers will help you with your problems.
Maybe killing your sense of individuality to pledge to do what your "superiors" want you to do will help you, since you won't have to think for yourself any more. You can just follow orders.
Maybe learning to hurt and kill human beings will help you be successful in life!!

Maybe they will wash what remains of your body out of the bombed vehicle with a hose.


The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner
Randall Jarrell (1914-1965)

From my mother's sleep I fell into the State
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, I loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.

 

[slimvictor]

Do it man...thus far in my 5 years of service, no regrets. I learend alot about myself, made myself so much HARDER and stronger.

Some people claim that the military helped make them strong.
However, that is just a mind trick, a type of brainwashing.
The type of strength people learn in the military is physical, and it is intended for violence and aggression.

That is not true strength.

True strength is the ability to go to work when you feel like relaxing, because you have to pay the rent.

True strength is the ability to apologize and admit that you were wrong.

True strength is the ability to be honest, even if you will get in trouble.

True strength is supporting your children, even if their dreams don't coincide with your hopes for their lives. What if your son dreams of becoming a dancer? Are you strong enough to pay for dance lessons and encourage him, or are you so weak that you will worry about what the neighbors think?

True strength is the ability to be open to new ways of thinking.

True strength is exercising every day, even when you are sick or tired, because you decided to exercise every day. It is not exercising when your "superior" orders you to exercise. You cannot gain true strength from following orders.

True strength is thinking for yourself, even if your family and friends don't like what you are thinking, which they will not if you don't share their fears and prejudices.

True strength is listening to your body, and stopping when it tells you to stop.

True strength is being true to yourself.

You will not learn any of this in the military.
None, zilch, zip, nada.
You will get out with a strong body (unless you are injured or killed, or course, which are real possibilities), but a weak mind.

 

[bighooter]

^^^

good post

reminds me of forest gump

 

[aanallein]

slimvictor I completely disagree.

Maybe you have been fortunate because you've been raised with discipline (or maybe not, who knows), but a LOT of 18 year old boys (yes, boys) have either not had a father figure around or the father figure didn't discipline worth a shit. These boys will never mature into men. In the US we have a crisis of 20-something year old boys running around and many of them are fathering more of these boys-that-will-never-become-men.

The military teaches you discipline. It teaches you a lot of other things and may not be the best place for some people. For those who need discipline though it is the best place they can ever go because it will give them discipline and without that 1 attribute they will never become men. You become strong when you're a man. Boys aren't strong. A lot of the things you talked about are things strong men are capable of but the people I'm talking about would never be able to do them.


As an aside, the physical part of the military isn't even that hard aside from possibly boot camps for Marines and special forces and maybe a handful of other things. Everybody I know has said the mental conditioning is the hard part. For my marine friends the mental part was learning to sack the fuck up and do what you're told. for the people I know who went to academies it was the academics.




A prime example of somebody who could benefit from the discipline of the military is bighooter, if you're familiar with him at all.

 

[Cyc]

well said, slimvictor.