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[MEGA] Meditation

CoffeeDrinker said:
That thought is very interesting. It seems like meditation is nothing more than a way to exercise the shifting the dominant brain waves from beta to alpha. And satori usually occurs after coming out of the alpha dominant state, so that is like some sort of period where there is an intermediate mental state combining the total calmness of mind with an active thought process.
Though I feel so silly trying to explain it as I am years and years away from satori I really have no clue what I'm talking about.

I think any intelligent young person thinks that they are special and that they can attain the desired state quicker than most, but like trying to lift a bench press that's way heavier than what you are currently capable of despite the fact that you have functioning muscles, trying to attain this state of enlightenment is way above your current level of mental perception.
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Reducing meditation and satori (What ever that actually refers to) to simplistic neuroscientific explanations is not on, imo. iju,

For one, meditation, especially Chan/zen meditation, is not necessarily meant to be peaceful as the brain wave switch model posited above implies. Would you say there is an exact physical correlate to enlightenment? what does enlightenment really mean?

Accounts of zen practice I have read (by ta-hui, Hakuin, as well as modern western practitioners) describe zen practice as a sometimes peaceful, but often harrowing process. To see meditation as a simple process of calming the mind is to oversimplify. I don't feel that meditation is necessarily that which you should turn to to deal with emotional issues like anxiety etc. You might end up realizing what a selfish ass hole you yourself are.

These comments are not specifically addressed to you, but to the thread in general.


Also, a more general question. How do you conceive of satori?
 
satori is like taking a hot shower... then the dishwasher in the kitchen turns on and the water you are bathing in suddenly drops forty degrees.
 
^That's so non-dualistic of you. ;)

Hewhomustnotbenamed said:
Reducing meditation and satori (What ever that actually refers to) to simplistic neuroscientific explanations is not on, imo. iju,

For one, meditation, especially Chan/zen meditation, is not necessarily meant to be peaceful as the brain wave switch model posited above implies. Would you say there is an exact physical correlate to enlightenment? what does enlightenment really mean?

Accounts of zen practice I have read (by ta-hui, Hakuin, as well as modern western practitioners) describe zen practice as a sometimes peaceful, but often harrowing process. To see meditation as a simple process of calming the mind is to oversimplify. I don't feel that meditation is necessarily that which you should turn to to deal with emotional issues like anxiety etc. You might end up realizing what a selfish ass hole you yourself are.

These comments are not specifically addressed to you, but to the thread in general.


Also, a more general question. How do you conceive of satori?
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I think it'd be nearly impossible to tell if their is a direct physical correlation between enlightenment and brain activity considering the monk doing the meditation most likely wouldn't want to spend their formative years in a lab long enough for any readings to take place. They'd probably rather be sweeping the steps to an old shrine somewhere in the woods.
I am pretty convinced that there is a neurological link though. I am not going to school for that though so I wouldn't want to come up with BS trying to explain the link. It just seems like it would make sense.


Wouldn't realizing what a selfish asshole you've become be a point of progress along the way of zen meditation? Using it to sort out your real life problems is a lot healthier than using psychedelics for that reason. When you can sit amid all your fears and troubles with a calm mind if only for a moment that is true zazen. When I was having an acute panic attack and I was by myself and didn't want to let other people know about it Zen meditation seemed like the only worthwhile thing to do. It did make me feel a lot better.
You can use the weeds in your mind to nourish yourself and take steps toward maturity.
 
Yes, it is difficult to face that fact that you're a flawed person (whether you learn this yourself through meditation or some other means, or by somebody else pointing it out). The real difficulty however is accepting the fact that you flawed with grace, and then doing something to fix your flaws.
 
Meditation to me is simply watching.

Watching my thought process, feelings, emotions that arise, wandering thoughts.

Meditation doesn't have to be internal.

On a bus ride, I like to watch every sound from every person and feel the vibration of the engine.

When I'm cooking, I like to really taste my food instead of assuming how it tastes. I really like to watch my taste buds.

Meditation is watchfulness.
 
yes I also find that the meditation I like to call "working meditation" is a very effective way to integrate the practice into everything you do.

an internal dialog: "Step; step; ste;p step; turn, lift arm; reach; grasp; pull; lift leg; step; step forward; let go; breath; breath; breath ; turn; look..." etc...

or

"chew...chew...chew...swallow. smoky, chocolatey, bitter, enjoyable. chew... chew... chew.." etc...

just being aware of the complexity of your mental and physical processes is awe-inspiring.
 
I like working meditation too! I remember over the summer at my factory job I was concentrating on my work while trying to keep the only thought in my mind on my abdomen moving out as I inhaled and in as I exhaled. I kept up the work with a smile on my face because of how in harmony I felt. All others around me were totally miserable.
I found that place to be very inspirational, though it seems like few others did.
 
i passively meditate in the darkness of my room in the morning, usually to ambient sounds of nature.

i actively meditate doing southern style kung fu most of the week, its based on rhythmic meditative breathing, and certainly opens up a new level of awareness.
 
do you think playing video games can be classed as meditation?

i say this because one of my mates who is 22 literally looks really young and his face is full of peace n youth and when hes playing the computer you can tell he is so focused on it that hes in his own world.

do you know what im saying?
 
bighooter said:
do you think playing video games can be classed as meditation?

i say this because one of my mates who is 22 literally looks really young and his face is full of peace n youth and when hes playing the computer you can tell he is so focused on it that hes in his own world.

do you know what im saying?
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I know what you're saying, but that is more like a comatose state. He's sort of doing the opposite of meditation... sort of. He might be focusing all his attention on one point, but that point isn't consciousness.
 
^ I agreed with what you stated at first glance (or at least, I wanted to), but isn't the point of meditation to bring when into the present moment? Physical activity--team and individual sports, among others--can be profoundly meditative without the need to focus on consciousness itself. And isn't zazen the only meditation form that focuses deliberately on consciousness? There is meditation that simply focuses on the reception of stimuli as well, correct?

That said, I want to agree with you, as 'video game meditation' seems shallow to me intuitively.
 
construct said:
^ I agreed with what you stated at first glance (or at least, I wanted to), but isn't the point of meditation to bring when into the present moment? Physical activity--team and individual sports, among others--can be profoundly meditative without the need to focus on consciousness itself. And isn't zazen the only meditation form that focuses deliberately on consciousness? There is meditation that simply focuses on the reception of stimuli as well, correct?

That said, I want to agree with you, as 'video game meditation' seems shallow to me intuitively.
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Sure you might want to bring yourself in the present moment, but I can say from many years of video game experience: you aren't aware of anything when you're in the middle of a six hour video game binge. You might look serene or peaceful, but you aren't even aware of what you're doing.

I can agree that things like running long distances or driving long distances can be meditative- they might not be deep, but they seem to do the trick. I just can't agree that video gaming has any positive effects on a person's consciousness.
 
Changed said:
Sure you might want to bring yourself in the present moment, but I can say from many years of video game experience: you aren't aware of anything when you're in the middle of a six hour video game binge. You might look serene or peaceful, but you aren't even aware of what you're doing.

I can agree that things like running long distances or driving long distances can be meditative- they might not be deep, but they seem to do the trick. I just can't agree that video gaming has any positive effects on a person's consciousness.
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I think a large part of that is to do with how intensely you are focusing your concentration when playing games. All your attention is going into optimising the best outcome; little if any is left for reflection. Contrast this with "true" meditation - in my experience this has usually had to do with unfocusing my attention and relaxing.

Also look at the feeling afterwards - after meditation I find myself feeling energised and refreshed. It is not so after a many-hour videogame binge. As a former WoW addict, I feel qualified to state that as a fact. :\

@Medatripper: That was an amazing read!
 
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There is meditation where you focus and meditation where you passively take in. Neither of them are goal oriented though.
 
You are absolutely correct.... but the first poster seemed to be harping on the positive outcomes associated with meditative practice.

It's as easy trap to fall in, especially in the begging.... just thought I'd bring it up.
 
I figured i would ask this here, instead of creating a new thread based on the same topic.

I've been practicing meditation for about 5 months now, i wouldn't know 'what type' if you asked me.. i've just been focusing on a single point of consciousness.

My question is, as i feel my thoughts clear away.. i can feel a rising surge of energy building, i will eventually reach a point where i will feel this incredible surge of this energy enter me through my root chakra and flow through my entire body increasing my heart rate and body temperature. I can only maintain this state of consciousness for no longer then 20-30 seconds before i become overwhelmed and break concentration.

Does anyone have any advice/methods for maintaining focus during this point of intensity? The more i practice the easier it's becoming to control.. but i was wondering anyway.
 
malakaix said:
My question is, as i feel my thoughts clear away.. i can feel a rising surge of energy building, i will eventually reach a point where i will feel this incredible surge of this energy enter me through my root chakra and flow through my entire body increasing my heart rate and body temperature. I can only maintain this state of consciousness for no longer then 20-30 seconds before i become overwhelmed and break concentration.

Does anyone have any advice/methods for maintaining focus during this point of intensity? The more i practice the easier it's becoming to control.. but i was wondering anyway.
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I don't have much experience with this while sitting, but I have felt a force like this in a similar manner, mostly spontaneously while practicing (sober) mindfulness in a variety of contexts.

It seems like kundalini yoga is the discipline you want to research if you're interested in trying to harness and focus this energy, which in that tradition is conceived of as a coiled serpent of libidinal energy that rests dormant at the base of the spine, and which can be awakened and directed through the chakras into the head.

Here's a decent overview: Kundalini Yogas FAQ

I'm not well-versed in this tradition at all, mind you, but I do know that it's not something to be dabbled with lightly. Your best bet would probably be to find a teacher if you think it's something that you want to pursue further, all the while keeping in mind some words of warning by Carl Jung:

"One often hears and reads about the dangers of yoga, particularly of the ill-reputed Kundalini yoga. The deliberately induced psychotic state, which in certain unstable individuals might easily lead to a real psychosis, is a danger that needs to be taken very seriously indeed. These things are really dangerous and ought not to be meddled with in our typically western way."
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bighooter said:
do you think playing video games can be classed as meditation?

i say this because one of my mates who is 22 literally looks really young and his face is full of peace n youth and when hes playing the computer you can tell he is so focused on it that hes in his own world.

do you know what im saying?
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That's the bliss achieved from "flow", and so I would say it is quite different from meditation.
 
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