[MEGA] Meditation

[Xevy]

From what ive been reading in Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's book on dream yoga one form of meditation is watching emotions come and go without reacting to them essentially liberating those karmic seeds or reactions and this is not just a practice to do in seated meditation. You can do this throughout every situation in life, I also feel like when you leave your meditation that state of mind can be carried over throughout the day though to a lesser degree and I feel like keeping that state of mind throughout the day is also a form of meditation. I feel like you can use every moment to further yourself in your practice hence why I say life is a meditation. I guess if you always take it in the strictest Tibetan sense then life is not a meditation but I was using it in a looser way. I also feel if you look at the first sentence of the wiki definition this supports life being a meditation (if you make it that way) as it defines meditation as a discipline by which you exit the thinking reflexive state of mind and go into a state of more spacious deep awareness, which I attempt to do throughout every situation in life so I feel like I never leave meditation.

Certainly the wikipedia definition of meditation is much broader than what I was using, specifically because its broad enough to encompass 'meditation' across all traditions.

The reason I feel that a distinction between meditation and post-meditation is important is because if one believes that all of life is meditation and that you never leave it, it probably means you also feel no need for formal sitting meditation -- afterall you think you are doing it all the time.

There are significant advantages to formal sitting meditation. For one thing, you are literally only doing that. When you are at work, driving a car, etc etc, you are not literally just trying to enter samadhi or single pointed concentration.

Certainly the longer term goals are to have a 'spacious deep awareness' as you put it, all the time. However, this is a relatively advanced stage, I would be careful not to confuse your idea of what those words mean with what Geshe Tenzin Wangyal means.

Geshe Tenzin Wangyal is a Bonpo, a follower of Bon. When hes talking about that kind of 'transformation meditation', hes talking about a skill gained through years of formal tantric meditation practice. Dream yoga is considered a 'completion stage' practice, and is not something that one can really simply jump into, it involves a relatively high degree of achievement already.

Often times when one reads texts it is common to confuse someones descriptions after years of practice with the practice itself. I am not of course in a position to judge you personally. My point in all this is simply this: although meditation certainly plays a role in your entire life, having actual set aside periods of time for formal meditation is extremely important -- especially if you are following a contemplative tradition such as Buddhism or Bon.

 

[stonerfromohio]

Certainly the wikipedia definition of meditation is much broader than what I was using, specifically because its broad enough to encompass 'meditation' across all traditions.

The reason I feel that a distinction between meditation and post-meditation is important is because if one believes that all of life is meditation and that you never leave it, it probably means you also feel no need for formal sitting meditation -- afterall you think you are doing it all the time.

There are significant advantages to formal sitting meditation. For one thing, you are literally only doing that. When you are at work, driving a car, etc etc, you are not literally just trying to enter samadhi or single pointed concentration.

Certainly the longer term goals are to have a 'spacious deep awareness' as you put it, all the time. However, this is a relatively advanced stage, I would be careful not to confuse your idea of what those words mean with what Geshe Tenzin Wangyal means.

Geshe Tenzin Wangyal is a Bonpo, a follower of Bon. When hes talking about that kind of 'transformation meditation', hes talking about a skill gained through years of formal tantric meditation practice. Dream yoga is considered a 'completion stage' practice, and is not something that one can really simply jump into, it involves a relatively high degree of achievement already.

Often times when one reads texts it is common to confuse someones descriptions after years of practice with the practice itself. I am not of course in a position to judge you personally. My point in all this is simply this: although meditation certainly plays a role in your entire life, having actual set aside periods of time for formal meditation is extremely important -- especially if you are following a contemplative tradition such as Buddhism or Bon.

I certainly agree that time set aside for deep meditation is a must on the path of liberation, I meditate every morning when I wake up and at night before I go to sleep and any other time I have the opportunity to. I am aware he is Bon hence why I bought his book I wanted to read about someone practicing Bon and I am interested in dreams and sleep I felt it was a great place to start on the subject. Im well aware that you cant go into samadhi while driving nor have one pointed concentration while driving I never thought that you could. I merely meant you could be practicing some form of meditation (using this loosley) throughout the day.

 

[Xevy]

I certainly agree that time set aside for deep meditation is a must on the path of liberation, I meditate every morning when I wake up and at night before I go to sleep and any other time I have the opportunity to. I am aware he is Bon hence why I bought his book I wanted to read about someone practicing Bon and I am interested in dreams and sleep I felt it was a great place to start on the subject. Im well aware that you cant go into samadhi while driving nor have one pointed concentration while driving I never thought that you could. I merely meant you could be practicing some form of meditation (using this loosley) throughout the day.

We are in agreement stonerfromohio As with many arguments/discussions in person and especially online it just comes down to what each person means by the key terms.

Of course 'meditation' should continue in some form throughout the day (what good would it be if it ended when you stood up from the mat?), whether it be active mindfulness or the residual calmness/insight from the 'formal' meditation period.

I was not trying to educate you on who Geshe Tenzin Wangyal was, obviously if you read that book you knew, it was more for the benefit of anyone else reading the thread so they had a background who we were discussing.

On an off topic note, one interesting thing with the Bonpo's of today is that they study Gelug Buddhist philosophy, that is where his Geshe title comes from. In reality the Bon of today is almost entirely Tibetan Buddhist, just with a slightly different flavor. As for the dreams and sleeps aspect, dream yoga is one of the standard components of the Six Yogas of Naropa which are practiced by almost all Tibetan Buddhist lineages. These Highest Yoga Tantra practices are advanced stuff and certainly interesting to read about -- but like most 'advanced practices' are best learned in person by a qualified teacher

Geshe Tenzin Wangyal himself does many retreats and teachings, his center is in Virginia.

 

[jam uh weezy]

In the mountain analogy, if I wander up the mountain without a map, I probably will get to the top eventually. But I personally do not really want to spend the extra time getting lost in caves, trapped under avalanches, or attacked by wild animals. So I do by best to pragmatically follow the maps laid out by those who I believe to have already achieved the goals I strive for.

Wouldn't that be ignoring these aspects of the mountain? Why not put yourself in these areas of the mountain if you encounter them. At some point, the persons who made the map had to experience these things firsthand, and made it through. How can you truly grasp the peak, if you do not know all that holds it in place, the foundation?
Getting a little more out there: What if these specific spots on the map aren't what they have been labeled. What if someone before you has purposely Incorrectly written the map to avoid anyone else finding something that they may have?

After all, if everyone simply 'following their own path' and 'expanding their individualism' with no outside advice or guidance was the 'best', this world would have considerably less problems because the vast majority of people do simply 'follow their own path'. Unfortunately, what 'your own path' is tends to be the product of past habituation, often negative habituation.

I believe that very little people do indeed follow their own path. They may think they do, but they are unable to see behind the scenes of what external, unseen factors have influenced and still influence their life. I agree about them believing what is falsely their true path leading to nothing but past/negative habituation.
I think if people were more in control of their path, they would be able to 'objectively'(as much as a person can be so) identify these past habituations and altter their behaviors, rather than seeking external idealogies or false teachers.

I'm not saying all ideology and teachers don't do people good, farrr from that. I also agree with a lot of what you are saying, I only question these things for discussions sake.

 

[Xevy]

Wouldn't that be ignoring these aspects of the mountain? Why not put yourself in these areas of the mountain if you encounter them. At some point, the persons who made the map had to experience these things firsthand, and made it through. How can you truly grasp the peak, if you do not know all that holds it in place, the foundation?
Getting a little more out there: What if these specific spots on the map aren't what they have been labeled. What if someone before you has purposely Incorrectly written the map to avoid anyone else finding something that they may have?

You are correct, IF your goal is to explore as much of the mountain as possible. In Hinduism there is a notion of living out many different lives, experiencing many different aspects of the Godhead, before finally joining in union with it. In Buddhism, which I follow, there is no notion of exploration in this sense. Instead, the goal is very clear, liberation from samsara.

Because I believe that certain people have achieved this goal, and others are far along the path, I take their advice. As I said, if my goal was exploration for the sake of exploration, then certainly following any map might lead one to 'miss' things. However, I believe there is great value in a precious human birth and I plan to use that time accordingly, exploration for the sake of exploration could use my entire lifetime and not accomplish much.

In terms of the mountain analogy, if your goal is the top of the mountain, it does not matter that you see 100% of the mountain, its wholly unnecessary in order to reach the top. In this case, the mountain would be Samsara and the top Nirvana -- I don't care too much for seeing 100% that Samsara has, I would rather aim straight for Nirvana and thus take the most direct route via a map.

To apply this same concept to a less 'lofty' goal/destination. Say your goal is single pointed concentration, samadhi, perfected shamatha. That is your top of the mountain. There is a lot of mountain out there, many states of sinking minds, overly excited mind, and so on. In my view, there is no advantage to spending a lot of time (any at all if avoidable) in these parts of the mountain...because you are trying to get to the top. Why hang out in a dirty cave for days when you could be at the peak that much faster? You could spend this entire lifetime in various mental states brought about by improper meditation technique...sure you may have 'explored' more states of mind, but to what end? You certainly didn't reach the top of the mountain.

One easy example of this. When developing shamatha meditation, there is a 'sinking' state of mind. In this state, one feels more at peace than they typically do, because the gross layer of thoughts is surpressed. Some people can spend a long time reentering this state because they find it peaceful and/or think it a worthy place to spend time. However, this sinking mind although it may lack the grosser layer of conceptions lacks clarity. As such, habituating the mind to it is not going to help develop samadhi. This was only one example, there are many many of these 'out of the ordinary' mind states one will encounter in meditation -- without a map and/or teacher one can easily be led astray into thinking that simply because its out of the ordinary that its a worthwhile state of mind.

I believe that very little people do indeed follow their own path. They may think they do, but they are unable to see behind the scenes of what external, unseen factors have influenced and still influence their life. I agree about them believing what is falsely their true path leading to nothing but past/negative habituation.
I think if people were more in control of their path, they would be able to 'objectively'(as much as a person can be so) identify these past habituations and altter their behaviors, rather than seeking external idealogies or false teachers.

I'm not saying all ideology and teachers don't do people good, farrr from that. I also agree with a lot of what you are saying, I only question these things for discussions sake.

Yes I agree, this is a little more elaboration on what I meant when I mentioned that most peoples 'own paths' were simply the product of past negative habituation. For example, if you spend all your time as a thief, your 'own path' is going to come up with rationale and justification for theft.

The matter of choosing a teacher and path is a tricky one. There are obviously many many different paths, and just as many if not more teachers offering advice on these.

When I initially approached meditation as a skill, apart from any 'religion' or path I looked at techniques from many traditions. After a more thorough look at the various contemplative traditions, it became immediately apparent that Buddhism was my path and in some ways always had been.

Even then, there are many different traditions, generally speaking Theravada and Mahayana. Within Mahayana you have primarily Zen, Pure Land, or Tibetan Vajrayana.

There are many methods for many individuals, its all about finding a goal, destination, or set of charactertisics you see the value in and then aligning with that path. Of course one must be careful at this stage because you may feel drawn towards a path which may turn out to be self destructive.

Its a tricky business when the 3 poisons of ignorance, attachment, and hatred run rampant.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

This may be hopefully of some help, to whoever reads it

The nearest thing to meditation that i can feel is if I use an analogy.


I am a valley, with water flowing through it.
Whatever is in that water, I just let it flow by.
If it rocks me, I do not fight it, but I do not focus on it neither.
I keep my focus on the whole of me, the valley, while the water, and
whatever is in, flows through.​

^^^
That is nice 3d, but for what is worth, other then clarification, it is a visualization, a different part of meditation-or another form, however there are som many forms and it has to suit not only your needs and personality or symptoms. Some people feel a lot of agitation with meditation stillness. Try to get an ADHD/ADD to try and stay still or not think etc. it won't do it for him.

There are some good forms of meditation, which are active, or go through verious stages and I like those ones, they release emotion at first, then you go into other stages of moving the energy nicely and about the 5th stage, you are ready to meditate but do it standig up, and finish with a sensual slow move, to bring up your sensual self! Thank you for that lovely passage/visual.

I've recently been trying a few meditative techniques but haven't gotten the hang of it yet. Would you guys be able to recommend starting with a certain type or form or meditation? I imagine there are hundreds of kinds and variations, but a simple one to start with is what I'm looking for atm. Also, have any of you tried using mantra's whilst meditating?

^^^The mantra use, is a specific type of meditation, and it also assists you mostly, to focus and lose the thoughts passing by-forming a circle in your mind's eye and starting the mantra at a certain point of the circle, after you notice the thoughts passing. You complete the circle than you start the next.
You are really best to join a meditation group, where they use various forms, so that you can choose which one is most suited to you, but also so that you get to know how to do it properly or you want know what you are doing and give up too easily. Once you learn, you can do it at home. However, the fact that others also are doing it in a group, it makes it motivational.

Hi,

Scientific experimentation and research has found out how the human body reacts under profound meditation. It has also been found that the meditation process counteracted the effects of the sympathetic nervous system - the one that wants to fight or flee.

______________
meditation

In fact that is the major reason for meditation, so as to calm down the sympathetic system!

The best way to learn is through yourself, not what others tell you. Sit and let the wholeness of yourself go, and learn about yourself.

Hmmm, not easy for starters! I would suggest for him to start in a group as I suggested above, and various methods, then do it on his own, and perhaps keep it once a week in a group to perfect the method and motivate yourself.
There are some groups that do it by donation, like buddist monks etc and a great way to go away on a weekend and stay there, and bond with the group, it is excellent!:D

Life is a meditation

^^^
I'm not sure what you mean here, life is a huge stress, and meditation is for unwinding. Do you mean nature perhaps??

 

[Xevy]

^^^
The mantra use, is a specific type of meditation, and it also assists you mostly, to focus and lose the thoughts passing by-forming a circle in your mind's eye and starting the mantra at a certain point of the circle, after you notice the thoughts passing. You complete the circle than you start the next.

There are many different uses of mantra. The most basic 'Hindu' use of mantra is called japa meditation. Japa meditation is more or less the repetition of various mantras until all other thoughts/sensations drop out and only the mantra remains. It does not necessarily involve any visualization, but of course there are many techniques and some do.

The Vajrayana use of mantra is a bit more sophisticated and is not about repetition. Generally speaking, the point is to 'bind' mind, speech, and body into the practice. This involves visualization with mind, mantra with speech, and mudra/body posture with body.

I am sure other traditions use mantra as well, I am most familiar with 'Hindu' and Buddhist use.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Kundalini Meditation and Experiences

After experiencing the Kundalini energy on mushrooms, I thought it was a strange sensation, but nothing of too much importance. Later, however, I began to have the same experiences, but sober. The experiences seem to be at random, though usually when I'm sitting or lying down and alone. My experiences consist of a brief taste of the energy, and then as I focus (and sometimes chant Sat Nam and/or Ong Na Mo Guru Dev Na Mo repeatedly) the sensation increases, culminating in a few short bursts of full-body tingling. I'm very interested in perhaps increasing the frequency of these experiences (ATM I get it about once every 1.5 weeks) or learning what the significance of them is. Do any of you feel this while sober or know anything to help my desires?

Kundalini n00bs: "Kundalini is a psycho-spiritual energy, the energy of the consciousness, which is thought to reside within the sleeping body, and is aroused either through spiritual discipline or spontaneously to bring new states of consciousness, including mystical illumination. Kundalini is Sanskrit for "snake" or "serpent power," so-called because it is believed to lie like a serpent in the root chakra at the base of the spine. In Tantra Yoga kundalini is an aspect of Shakti, the divine female energy and consort of Shiva.(see also Tantrism)

The power of kundalini is said to be enormous. Those having experienced it claim it to be indescribable. The phenomena associated with it varies from bizarre physical sensations and movements, pain, clairaudience, visions, brilliant lights, superlucidity, psychical powers, ecstasy, bliss, and transcendence of self. Kundalini has been described as liquid fire and liquid light."
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/k/kundalini.html

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

You open up the plexuses, by certain exercises. You must have seen some African kind of dancing that opens up the energy chanels and the person goes into a wild dance, either rythmical or arythmical, and the eyes rolling after a while, thrown into that trance like wild dance.
If you want to get into it deeply, join a group that does this form of meditation, the moderator knows how to awaken it, and increase it!

 

[Bob Loblaw]

What if joining a group isn't an option? There aren't any around me .

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

^^^Well then! Here are some links, together with utube for you to practice!
Have fun!


http://www.osho.com/Main.cfm?Area=Meditation&Language=English

http://www.enlightenedbeings.com/kundalini-meditation.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW7XxmugEAA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYLNWfBTMg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2tobApOjF8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgnZNziq_Q8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km6DBkhgGwU

http://www.amazon.com/Osho-Kundalini-Meditation-Deuter/dp/B0000009C8

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Osho Meditation, is a fully dynamic form of meditation, since many people also sit on their emotions, as in not evoking the energy, as it is repressed or subdued or supressed.
They use various forms of activity in different forms to activate the emotional/sexual/kundalini energy. I loved it the most then any other meditation. Done in a group though and you need a leader/moderator to guide it, it is complex but very very active! They also do it once a year, all around the world, they synchronize it so everyone around the world do it together at the same time!

Meanwhile, try the kundalini on your own and see how you go, or like it!
What do you mean, nothing around you, do you live in the desert?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Thanks :D

I live in a small city that isn't exactly receptive to this kind of activity heh.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Thanks :D

I live in a small city that isn't exactly receptive to this kind of activity heh.

Ahh, that is sad that they are not receptive to meditation! Perhaps they are not becoming stressed in a small city, as much as in large cities!
Place a post when you practice it, and tell me what you think of it, and if you got the nack of it-and how or if it has assisted you. It is always good to know how different people find assistance through various forms of meditation, or what they are looking for from meditation-besides an overall calmness!

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Indeed, the Kundalini is a wonderful thing from what little I've experienced of it :D. I'll be sure to let you know!

 

[stonerfromohio]

I experienced an astounding kundalini experience on 4 grams of mushies by myself while meditating and listening to Tibetan mantras energy started at my feet culminated at the base chakra and shot up and out my crown into formless states of vibrant energy and caused me to react to music in what seemed like Godly force which caused uncontrollable motion in my arms and head and lasted around 30 seconds and subsided. Amazing.

 

[swilow]

Could kundalini energy be the only renewable source?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

^Is it renewable in a sense that is it is used up and then regnerated, or is it just something that continuously flows? I.e. is the Kundalini akin to magnetic forces in that they are not consumed rather they simply flow?

stonerfromohio: Have you experienced other Kundalini sensations? If so I'd love to hear about them :D.

 

[swilow]

^Is it renewable in a sense that is it is used up and then regnerated, or is it just something that continuously flows?

I guess if its the energy of conciousness- to an extent, it must need fuel- but this kundalini could be the way to beat global warming Electrodes for all...

I've experiecned this quite regularly, but I hesitate to say its kundalini- moreso like a weird green coloured energy that I can move about my body, usually directing it from the groin region upwards. Its slightly overwhelming at times- thjis thread was cool http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=445770&highlight=kundalini

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Heh, one day we'll be moving about in Kundalini cars .

Yep that thread is really useful, though in this one I'm more interested with people's sober experiences, because I can't trip on mushrooms 3 times a month lol.