[MEGA] Meditation

[Xevy]

I've recently been trying a few meditative techniques but haven't gotten the hang of it yet. Would you guys be able to recommend starting with a certain type or form or meditation? I imagine there are hundreds of kinds and variations, but a simple one to start with is what I'm looking for atm. Also, have any of you tried using mantra's whilst meditating?

As I am sure you are aware, there are many many types of meditation. Even the word can be used many ways. However, generally speaking people are talking about what Buddhism calls shamatha when refering to medtiation.

Shamatha is 'calm abiding' meditation, it is more or less the skill of learning to habituate your mind to calm peaceful states. Like any process of habituating, this involves repeatedly doing the action.

The most basic, and yet very effective, form of shamatha meditation is a simple breath meditation.

Basically, sit in a comfortable position. Bring your focus to your breath as it enters the nose, or at your navel. Do not attempt to force your breathing into any particular pattern, simply observe your breath. Keep your focus on your breath at the spot you decided, for a period of time you decided.

When you notice you are thinking about other thoughts, feelings, or sensations (which most assuredly will happen), simply return your attention to the breath. That is the habituation, the act of returning your mind to its object of focus creates the conditioning and habit of building single pointed concentration.

Eventually, this concentration is a powerful tool that you can turn towards topics to produce insight, however that is a separate form of meditation. Shamatha has many stages and there are many resources available for learning more about it. For example see:

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/e...ion/gen_presentation_shamatha_vipashyana.html

For info on shamatha vs vipashyana meditation,

or

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/e...ration/achieving_shamatha.html?query=shamatha

For much greater detail on how to 'master' shamatha

additionally, if you are very motivated, there are excellent books such as :

http://www.amazon.com/Stages-Medita...1979/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1248660478&sr=8-2

Even as little as 5-10 minutes can have a dramatic effect on your mental clarity and calmness of mind. Goodluck!

 

[jam uh weezy]

How does one meditate without any pre-learned knowledge about the concept of meditation?

 

[Xevy]

How does one meditate without any pre-learned knowledge about the concept of meditation?

I suppose with no teachers or paths at all it is a matter of 'reinventing the wheel', trial and error.

Even someone like Shakyamuni Buddha did not start meditating with no 'pre-learned knowledge about meditation', he had many teachers that taught various forms of meditation. He used their teachings and techniques as a 'launching pad' for his meditative experience which eventually resulted in Buddhahood.

One is certainly free to wing it and attempt meditation with no knowledge or concepts, I have to wonder why one would do this. There are many contemplative traditions which have been tried for thousands of years. If the goals of a given tradition align with your personal goals (in the case of Buddhism this would mean you want to find peace of mind, freedom from suffering, Buddhahood) then why would you not want to follow a path that has been 'time tested' and the pitfalls are clearly laid out.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there certainly are 'nonconceptual' meditations that have nothing to do with your conceptions about meditation or your concepts about anything. In fact in many ways, all conceptual meditations are tools to reach these nonconceptual states.

However, although one may spontaneously enter a nonconceptual absorption in certain conditions (say for example a breathtaking awe inspiring panoramic view of nature), unless you have really good karma, its rare that a non-practicing individual is going to be able to stabilize and enter these states repeatedly. As such, experienced practitioners actually practice entering nonconceptual meditation, in which they attempt to not allow their preconceptions regarding the results of the effects or results of the meditation and/or concepts regarding the nature of mind and phenomena to play any interfering role with the natural unfolding that may occur.

However on a more basic level, the vast majority of people, myself included, have not achieved even a high degree of shamatha or perfected single pointed concentration. With such a tool, one can enter samadhi where subject/object duality dissolves leaving only the object of concentration. This tool can then be turned towards insight topics to produce the kinds of changes/revealings that the mindstream needs for long lasting unconditioned peace.

 

[capstone]

The best way to learn is through yourself, not what others tell you. Sit and let the wholeness of yourself go, and learn about yourself.

 

[Xevy]

The best way to learn is through yourself, not what others tell you. Sit and let the wholeness of yourself go, and learn about yourself.

Capstone I wonder, when you learned to speak did you do it by inventing a new language? When you use a vehicle did you start by inventing it first? Did you personally re-invent the wheel?

Its clear that there are great advantages to using what other humans have created.

I am not saying that people should follow dogma blindly and not learn yourself, but its simply not efficient to attempt to do everything 'yourself', in fact its impossible.

Even if you think you are 'learning yourself' without what others tell you, you are still working with implicit conditioning. At least when one consciously examines a path and then attempts to verify and check that path with their personal experience, you are aware explicitly of whats going on.

By all means if you feel the best path is one you learn all by yourself, go for it. I think if you actually consider the things you know and use, you will see that you gained a great deal through the experience of others.

If this is the case, why would you not wish to take the advice of those who have put in considerably more time than you have? I am not saying which particular tradition, teacher, or path you should follow -- simply that to attempt actual deep meditation without ANY structure most likely will not get you very far, at least not in terms of radical mental transformation.

Its similar to if every scientist had to start out fresh with absolutely no previous knowledge, we would be in the stone ages because no one could ever get anywhere without standing on the shoulders of others work.

 

[Papa1]

^ Well, going off topic a bit, that all depends on what you want out of the learning. If it's about mastering something, then starting from the preexisting knowledge makes sense. But if it's about personal revelations (the 'journey' instead of the 'destination'), then starting from preexisting knowledge isn't necessary and might actually be counterproductive. I don't know much about how this relates to meditation though e.g. whether meditation is a skill to be mastered. Thus ends my off topic clarification.

 

[Xevy]

^ Well, going off topic a bit, that all depends on what you want out of the learning. If it's about mastering something, then starting from the preexisting knowledge makes sense. But if it's about personal revelations (the 'journey' instead of the 'destination'), then starting from preexisting knowledge isn't necessary and might actually be counterproductive. I don't know much about how this relates to meditation though e.g. whether meditation is a skill to be mastered. Thus ends my off topic clarification.

Papa, I mostly agree with your points.

There are a set of technical and specific meditation skills to be learned and mastered. For example, the cultivation of concentration aiming towards singled pointed focus is a technical skill. As such, those who have mastered this skill can offer great advice to those of us attempting to do us. They can save us considerable time by telling us things they experienced and pitfalls to avoid. No reason to reinvent the wheel.

On the other hand, your distinction about the journey vs the destination is also important. Certainly the path of the contemplative is a wholly personal matter, it is the journey itself. However, even though it is a personal matter, there are simply things that EVERY contemplative journey is going to involve. This is because human beings are all very similar to other human beings. Now don't get me wrong, there are radical cultural conditioning differences, but those are all merely relative. We all have the same sense organs, the same general set of emotional and mental events, and so on.

While the journey is itself the life of the contemplative path, there is almost always an orienting destination. If there is no destination, no orientating, it becomes difficult to keep up the levels of motivation, dedication, and effort necessary for dedicated meditative/contemplative practice. In a Buddhist path, the destination/orientation is Nirvana or full Buddhahood.

Consider someone trying to reach the top of a mountain. The destination is obviously the top of the mountain, the journey itself is their personal subjective experience reaching that goal. However personal that journey may be, someone who has already climbed that mountain is able to offer excellent advice that will apply to ANYONE attempting to reach that destination.

This does not mean that the person on the journey will follow blind dogma, it means they will have a conceptual map which will aid them while traversing the territory. One must never confuse the map and the territory. The map is the destination and how to get there, the territory is the journey itself, the subjective personal experience.

What I seem to be reading some posters in this thread advocating is throwing away any map and traversing the territory blind. This may work, you may reach the top of the mountain by running around with no map. However, why do this? If you share a goal with someone who has either completed that goal or is further towards completing that goal, why not benefit from their experience and knowledge.

The contemplative path, the territory, is always personal. However personal it may be, there are going to be similarities with other individuals experience on the territory. As such, maps created by experienced individuals can be of great benefit. No one is advocating blind dogma or the lack of personal experience -- whats being advocated is personal experience with the benefit of advice from those with greater experience.

In a Buddhist context, the ENTIRE path is based on personal experience. Anyone can parrot words like "the self is empty of inherent existence". Those words alone mean nothing, what is important is the realization/experience giving life to those words. Paths/maps are simply conceptual tools to aid in having direct personal meditative/contemplative/religious experience.

 

[capstone]

Capstone I wonder, when you learned to speak did you do it by inventing a new language? When you use a vehicle did you start by inventing it first? Did you personally re-invent the wheel?

Its clear that there are great advantages to using what other humans have created.

I am not saying that people should follow dogma blindly and not learn yourself, but its simply not efficient to attempt to do everything 'yourself', in fact its impossible.

Actually, I've always thought in images, not words, and personally believe that is the natural thought process of humanity. Telepathy works through images, not words.

Yeah, I agree that wisdom of the past should be heeded. But a lot of the stuff may not work personally, and it is far more enlightening to learn something for yourself, for good or ill. If one is first starting out on their contemplative existence, then by all means get some pointers from those who have perfected what works for them. Its ideal though to find what works for you, and expand your individualism as much as you learn to go with the universal consciousness. Balance is key, never to much of one end to outweigh other potential perspectives.

Have much creative peace.

 

[jam uh weezy]

So ideally, you should always be open to the advice others with similar goals and with more experience have to give about what they have encountered on their mountain-peak trip, but not simply follow in the path they took. Maybe even purposely take a new path, while keeping those things in mind. I wonder who the first person to ever 'meditate' was and how that came about...

 

[Xevy]

So ideally, you should always be open to the advice others with similar goals and with more experience have to give about what they have encountered on their mountain-peak trip, but not simply follow in the path they took. Maybe even purposely take a new path, while keeping those things in mind. I wonder who the first person to ever 'meditate' was and how that came about...

It all depends on what motivates you in this life. I do not claim to know whats best for everyone, perhaps not even for myself...its all a matter of perspective. However, we do tend to have personal goals and motivations, orientations.

In the case of someone seeking to learn and experience meditation, of course the personal experience, experimentation, the journey itself is the key.

In my belief system, whereby we aim to reduce attachment,ignorance, and anger I cannot necessarily trust that my 'own path' is necessarily the most effective or efficient. Simply because it is 'mine' and it is what my mind is tending to drift towards at the moment does not necessarily validate it as a good way to reach my goals.

As a deluded sentient being, I am engulfed in ignorance, the fundamental manner in which my mind conceptualizes the existence of phenomena is flawed. As such, I sometimes find my mind wanting to take certain paths that with a little insight and inspection I can see are the result of past conditioning and are certainly not the best methods towards achieving my longer term goals and aims.

Basically what I am getting at is this: everyone is of course welcome and encouraged to find their own path in regards to meditation and contemplation. However, if you are serious about it, and are attempting to 'reach' certain goals whether it be the reduction of negative emotion, peace of mind, or higher absorptions/concentration, the path that you 'drift towards' may not necessarily be the best way.

In the mountain analogy, if I wander up the mountain without a map, I probably will get to the top eventually. But I personally do not really want to spend the extra time getting lost in caves, trapped under avalanches, or attacked by wild animals. So I do by best to pragmatically follow the maps laid out by those who I believe to have already achieved the goals I strive for.

Of course, if you don't know of any path/tradition/teacher who has goals you align with, then of course it makes no sense to follow their map...in which case all I can really think you should do is to honestly examine why you are meditating, what are you trying to accomplish, if anything.

To bring this full circle to what I began posting in this thread about: if someone is looking to learn how to calm their mind, I suggest looking into Buddhist shamatha meditation which develops concentration and reduces overly excited mental formations. This is only one aspect of the full Buddhist path, but a most important one -- and perhaps the one that most benefits individuals of all paths, even those with no path.

 

[Xevy]

Actually, I've always thought in images, not words, and personally believe that is the natural thought process of humanity. Telepathy works through images, not words.

Yeah, I agree that wisdom of the past should be heeded. But a lot of the stuff may not work personally, and it is far more enlightening to learn something for yourself, for good or ill. If one is first starting out on their contemplative existence, then by all means get some pointers from those who have perfected what works for them. Its ideal though to find what works for you, and expand your individualism as much as you learn to go with the universal consciousness. Balance is key, never to much of one end to outweigh other potential perspectives.

Have much creative peace.

Hello Capstone,

I was not questioning or suggesting you thought in literally words. The point of that analogy was that when you want to communicate, you use language, its a proven and developed tool -- a tool that you personally did not invent or create. Likewise, when one wants to learn to calm their mind through meditation, there are proven and developed tools to do so -- ones that you USE personally, but did not invent or create.

Certainly what works for one won't work for all, but there are basic techniques that will work for everyone, by virtue of the huge number of shared characteristics that all humans possess. One of these is the ability to develop concentration and singled pointed focus through habituation. It does not matter who you are, if you systematically practice shamatha meditation, your mind WILL calm and your concentration WILL increase.

On a larger scale, of course you are correct, people need to find what works for them. Luckily for us, there are a huge number of well developed, practiced, and established contemplative traditions aimed at individuals with different temperaments.

Even within only one tradition, say 'Hinduism', we find examples such as hatha yoga, bhakti yoga, or jnana yoga. Likewise Buddhism proscribes different specific meditations based on what habitual tendencies are strongest.

For example if anger is your strongest negative emotion, meditation on equanimity, loving-kindness, compassion, and joy are recommended. If it is attachment, then meditation on impermanence. If it is ignorance, then meditation on dependent origination and selflessness/emptiness.

Of course everyone needs a bit of all, like you said its a balance, but a contemplative path is customized based on your habitual patterns -- none the less, I believe maps are incredibly valuable tools.

After all, if everyone simply 'following their own path' and 'expanding their individualism' with no outside advice or guidance was the 'best', this world would have considerably less problems because the vast majority of people do simply 'follow their own path'. Unfortunately, what 'your own path' is tends to be the product of past habituation, often negative habituation.

 

[capstone]

Xevy, you make very nice points. We need our own paths, because we all have our own karmic destiny, but we have to extend positivity to the external environment. In no way should one impede on another's reality negatively, of course. As the Dali Llama said, "Kindness should be practiced above all other practices."

So, to be clear, if everyone followed their own path while guiding others when they need it, and radiated positivity in all aspects of their life, we might get somewhere as a species. Yes, heed wisdom from those who have been in those experiences, but we create our own reality, and the universe desires new experiences, not ones that have already happened. Where's the fun in that? The main rule that I personally follow, as rules are needed to be full, is balance between my good and dark sides to say, but always to attempt to produce growth and positivity, never destruction and negativity, and knowing the evil I am capable of, to make the choice to do good. Without Freewill, we have nothing.

So with that, have very much creative positive peace in your reality, good people.

 

[Xevy]

Yes, heed wisdom from those who have been in those experiences, but we create our own reality, and the universe desires new experiences, not ones that have already happened. Where's the fun in that?

See this is where I simply don't understand. I do not think that the universe itself is a sentient being, nor do I think it has wishes or desires. I don't really know what you mean when you say the universe desires new experiences.

Nothing that happens in your life has ever happened before, you are a unique mindstream with unique karma. Following a map laid out by another does not negate any of this. Once again, do not confuse the map with the territory.

 

[xexon]

I have a yogic background.

I used to meditate.

Now meditation never ends. Many years now.


x

 

[KoreyS]

Get my new bench tomorrow brothers!

 

[stonerfromohio]

I find that the more straight the spine is the more advanced concentration I can more easily achieve.

 

[stonerfromohio]

Life is a meditation

 

[Xevy]

I've been practicing Zen (without the Buddhism ) for a few years now and have owned some cushions for a while also.

Hello KoreyS, its good to hear you have an established meditation practice. I am curious if you would be willing to expand on how you 'practice Zen without the Buddhism'. As you probably know, the path of Zen came from India, through China, and then reaching Japan.

Zen is a literal translation of Ch'an (Chinese) which is a literal translation of Dhyana (Sanskrit). There are of course the Northern and Southern Ch'an transmissions, as well as several Zen transmissions such as Rinzai or Soto.

The word Zen is misused a lot in Western culture, its a marketing gimmick. For example you can find 'Zen Cereal'. Likewise people use 'zen' as a way to describe things, like "that guy is so zen!" Actual Zen practice is 100% Mahayana Buddhism, the goal is Enlightenment and the fundamentals remain the 4 nobles truths and the 8 fold noble path. Often the path structure is not presented in many intro Western Zen books such as Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind.

All that said, I doubt much of that, if any, was new to you. So I am wondering, what is it you particularly practice 'without Buddhism'. You say that you practice zazen, zazen itself is a Buddhist technique with Buddhist aims and goals. Those who have taught zazen have been Buddhist, and so forth.

I am interested in what you consider Zen to be APART from a Mahayana Buddhist lineage.

 

[Xevy]

Life is a meditation

This is one of the problems with such an ambiguous word like meditation. In a certain sense I agree. However, I tend to personally reserve the word meditation for actual formal periods.

In Tibetan the word used for 'meditation' is gompa. Gompa means to make something a habit, to become familiar with something, to cultivate it. In that sense, meditation is the skill and practice of familiarizing.

For example, when one meditates on compassion, one is familiarizing the mindstream with compassion. Likewise, when one meditates on the nature of phenomena and mind, one is familiarizing the mindstream with those insight.

In Buddhism there is a clear distinction between the period of meditative-equipoise and the post-equipoise period. A period of meditative-equipoise is when the mind is 'locked' singled pointedly on a given object, such as emptiness. The post-equipoise is when this singled pointed concentrative period ends and you go about your other activities.

For the average sentient being, when they first achieve some degree of single pointed concentration, you are (obviously) locked singled pointedly on that object. If you entered into meditative-equipoise on an object while driving a car, you would most likely crash.

Now, this distinction between meditation and post-meditation does not mean that when you 'leave the mat' you don't carry anything with you. Of course the very act of the meditative period conditions/colors the mindstream and thus the rest of your activities (the post-meditation period) are effected.

Another effect may be 'living in the moment' and being more aware of the present, through higher faculty of mindfulness...this may carry into post-meditation. Yet this is distinctly different from a meditative-equipoise period of samadhi or single pointed concentration.

In most Buddhist traditions, a sentient being is UNABLE to merge meditative-equipoise and post-equipoise. They go through a long long period of shifting back and forth between the two, building storehouses of merit and wisdom.

Once Buddhahood is 'reached'/'revealed', only then is it said that the meditative-equipoise and post-equipoise merge into one.

So it all comes down to what you mean by meditation. If by meditation you mean entering into a state of meditative-equipoise -- samadhi, then I do not believe that most sentient beings (if any) are doing this all the time or able to do this all the time. In this regard, I do not believe that 'life is meditation'. However, life is certainly an opportunity for meditation -- and the daily challenges one faces present excellent opportunities for cultivating key qualities such as compassion, mindfulness, and wisdom.

 

[stonerfromohio]

Definition from wiki on meditation:
Meditation is a mental discipline by which one attempts to get beyond the reflexive, "thinking" mind into a deeper state of relaxation or awareness. Meditation often involves turning attention to a single point of reference. It is a component of many religions, and has been practiced since antiquity. It is also practiced outside religious traditions. Different meditative disciplines encompass a wide range of spiritual or psychophysical practices that may emphasize different goals—from achievement of a higher state of consciousness, to greater focus, creativity or self-awareness, or simply a more relaxed and peaceful frame of mind.

From what ive been reading in Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's book on dream yoga one form of meditation is watching emotions come and go without reacting to them essentially liberating those karmic seeds or reactions and this is not just a practice to do in seated meditation. You can do this throughout every situation in life, I also feel like when you leave your meditation that state of mind can be carried over throughout the day though to a lesser degree and I feel like keeping that state of mind throughout the day is also a form of meditation. I feel like you can use every moment to further yourself in your practice hence why I say life is a meditation. I guess if you always take it in the strictest Tibetan sense then life is not a meditation but I was using it in a looser way. I also feel if you look at the first sentence of the wiki definition this supports life being a meditation (if you make it that way) as it defines meditation as a discipline by which you exit the thinking reflexive state of mind and go into a state of more spacious deep awareness, which I attempt to do throughout every situation in life so I feel like I never leave meditation.