[Mega] Harm protection supplements

[swedger77]

^ just Folleys opinion. 1000s of people use it for this reason.

I find 5-HTP brilliant at reducing the low mood of a comedown. I ve been taking MDMA for 17 years so that's based on a fair amount of experience. Never experienced any negative side effects, improved deeper sleep and no real dip in mood.

Might not work for everyone.........Worth a shot though. Its not going to kill you!!!!!!

I will agree on eating healthy though.

 

[Folley]

^ MDMA and speed is a VERY neurotoxic combo, it should not be recommended unless someone is asking on how to dose it. A 5 hour energy will do the same without all the neurotoxicity that occurs from a major increase of dopamine related free radicals entering and destroying 5-HT receptors.

^ just Folleys opinion. 1000s of people use it for this reason.

I find 5-HTP brilliant at reducing the low mood of a comedown. I ve been taking MDMA for 17 years so that's based on a fair amount of experience. Never experienced any negative side effects, improved deeper sleep and no real dip in mood.

Might not work for everyone.........Worth a shot though. Its not going to kill you!!!!!!

I will agree on eating healthy though.

That is not my opinion, it has been shown in quite a few studies that it is inefficient with oral dosing. Most of what you take never makes it to the brain, leaving serotonin precursors in your stomach and blood and forcing your liver to filter it out.

Now, it's my opinion that this makes the drug unsafe and that alternatives should be used. I have outlined how to get the same effect without the negatives, and if you look up 5-HTP side effects you'll not it's not as safe a drug as the companies who sell it make it out to be. You can agree with that part or not, but you couldn't disagree with the first part... I have a study quoted that says the same exact thing.

IMO, if you can get the same chemical (L-Tryptophan is converted to 5-HTP in the brain anyway, but it keeps the other metabolites of the drug out of where they shouldn't be) in a much safer, natural way... why bother with pills?

 

[swedger77]

I have a study quoted that says the same exact thing.

IMO, if you can get the same chemical (L-Tryptophan is converted to 5-HTP in the brain anyway, but it keeps the other metabolites of the drug out of where they shouldn't be) in a much safer, natural way... why bother with pills?

I read the study you linked. It does not say that it put the liver under stress. That's just your understanding of it. Elsewhere in the study the usefulness of 5-HTP is detailed:-

"Improves Well-Being in Depressed Persons

Serotonin in the central nervous system is recognized as a causative
factor in some depressed persons.6,7 A comprehensive review of seven
open and seven controlled clinical studies found that oral consumption
of 5-HTP improved mental and emotional status in 60 to 70 percent of
depressed people. "

"Improves Sleep Quality

Studies have shown that 5-HTP influences the quality of sleep by
increasing REM (rapid eye movement) sleep. Administration of 5-HTP in
the evening prior to bedtime has been shown to increase the duration of
REM sleep and decrease the amount of non-REM sleep"


"5-HTP–A Free-radical Scavenger

The OH group which is added to tryptophan in the formation of 5-HTP
gives 5-HTP antioxidant properties.18 (Compounds such as vitamin E and
flavonoids derive their free-radical quenching ability from OH groups,
which donate electrons to oxidants.)

5-HTP quenches a variety of free-radicals. This is in contrast to
tryptophan, which is " sensitive " to oxidation."


^^^^I would only presume that all 3 of these reported affects of 5-HTP would help with a comedown. Certainly I can personally vouch for improved mood and sleep.

Have you tried 5-HTP Folley or just base your advice on what you have read?

 

[mj1945]

I always wanted to try 5htp but luckily never got around to it. It seems great as people say it just kills the comedown like that and you feel fine after taking it. But I've heard it's bad for the heart, liver and in general just isn't natural. The first time I read people were getting serotonin syndrome from 5htp made me never wanna touch it. That alone scared me off. Instead I just accept the fact I'm gunna feel down for a few days and I deserve too since I rolled my ass off. Eat healthy, lots of the healthy food are full of tryptophan. My favourites are bananas and oranges but alot of food has it just research.

But to the OPs original question yeah I agree. The first hour especially the comeup I'm a wild man can dance like a maniac. Then after that I can just sit down and rub my legs or have some bitch do it and have an amazing time. I usually do dance at a club all night but after my heart rate slows down I have no problem sitting down and just enjoying how good I feel. MDMA gives me the best feeling in the upper thighs, the only way too describe it's like im jizzing for 4 hours haha.

 

[Folley]

^^^^I would only presume that all 3 of these reported affects of 5-HTP would help with a comedown. Certainly I can personally vouch for improved mood and sleep.

Have you tried 5-HTP Folley or just base your advice on what you have read?

I have no doubt that 5-HTP can be beneficial to some. To deny that would be to denying the hard work of many scientists. That DOES NOT change the rest of the facts however, most of the 5-HTP is completely ineffective and will never reach your brain. With all those extra serotonin metabolites floating around in your blood and digestive system.. where do you think they go? The livers job is to filter out impurities from blood, and random serotonin precursors where they should not be are impurities.

5-HTP can be very helpful though, yes. When it reaches the brain. Anywhere else, it can't do anything to help, however. Which is why L-Tryptophan is like 10x better than 5-HTP. It was meant to be taken in by your body, is a readily available in many healthy foods. When you take L-Tryptophan, your body converts it into 5-HTP, but it does this where it is SUPPOSED to occur. That's the important part.



But, no. I have not taken 5-HTP, or really any other supplement. I don't believe in taking pills to counter act the effects from other pills.. now, eating healthy and getting all those vitamins and minerals that are in those pills, and get them in a safe and natural way? I'm all for that!


This has gotten rather off topic though, so Swedge, if you want to keep this discussion up perhaps find one of the old threads on it?

Dopamine?

Prolactin?

 

[RoyMunson]

When you take 5-HTP, people suggest taking green tea extract as well so that it helps the chances of making it to the brain, is that true?

 

[Folley]

I don't know.


Like I said, fuck 5-HTP. If you think you NEED to take a pill to help, take some L-Tryptophan pills We really don't know enough about 5-HTP or even the Serotonin System in general for anyone to be taking random serotonin precursors because they want to be "happier". People are overloading their brains with chemicals they don't need, and it has caused some serious problems in the past.


No one gets Serotonin Syndrome from a turkey sandwich.. but people have died from 5-HTP

 

[Diloadid]

No one gets Serotonin Syndrome from a turkey sandwich.. but people have died from 5-HTP

Rofl.

I agree 5-htp is shit.

 

[p7yon]

Greetings all! First time poster here, be nice

There sure is a lot of contradicting advise on supplements, and especially the use of 5-HTP, even here on Bluelight. I don't know what to think anymore. I'm compiling some information on pre/postloading to try to make sense of it all, I can post in the Mega harm protection supplements thread if that's of interest.

But, no. I have not taken 5-HTP, or really any other supplement. I don't believe in taking pills to counter act the effects from other pills.. now, eating healthy and getting all those vitamins and minerals that are in those pills, and get them in a safe and natural way? I'm all for that!

I'm all for getting minerals and vitamins (and loads of other beneficial stuff) from food as well, but there's really not a black or white thing, and an appeal-to-nature argument is not the most convincing. Also, it's not as if releasing your serotonin supply with MDMA is possible in any "natural" way, so trying to reduce harm "naturally" seems like an odd argument. I mean no offence by this, just trying to come up with a reasonable argument.

I use multivitamins with minerals and fish oil supplements all the time, even though I eat relatively healthy. Research-based nutrition gurus like Lyle McDonald and Alan Aragon recommends doing and labels them "essential" supplements, as it's quite beneficial for you (unless you overdo it, by a lot). So if I can take some supplements to reduce harm from MDMA, I really don't see a problem with it coming in pill or capsule form.

I have little experience with MDMA, only a handful of times. The last time I did MDMA I took 150mg and a couple of 70mg redosages after 2/4 hours (I'm 34 years old, 6'1, 210lbs, btw). Such a dosage always leads to a nagging headache that will last for a day or three. This time, though, I took 300mg 5-HTP and two cups of green tea the next morning. The headache started subsiding after half an hour. Coincidence? Placebo? I dunno, but it was sweet relief. I will try the same next time to see if it was just a fluke.

 

[alasdairm]

When you take 5-HTP, people suggest taking green tea extract as well so that it helps the chances of making it to the brain, is that true?

opinion is divided on both the benefit and danger of taking 5-htp. you'll see parties on both sides play down and play up both, so i'd advise you to do your own reading and make up your own mind.

alasdair

 

[p7yon]

My mind is boggled trying to wrap my head around supplements for harm reduction. I'll continue reading on 5-HTP, as well as green tea (extract), but if I've learned anything it seems that taking antioxidants and multivitamin/minerals would be wise either way. Unlike supplementation with 5-HTP, there's no risk of harm. It would be ironic if taking 5-HTP supplements was of more harm than not taking 5-HTP, considering people take it specifically for harm reduction. I hope more research can be done on harm reduction and we would can take more informed decisions in the future.

One thing is research, but there's the matter of anecdotal evidence. I'd imagine there's an ever-growing body of evidence of people experimenting with supplements, but then again we're left with the uncertainty of anecdotal evidence. For all I know the placebo effect can be in, well, effect for people taking supplements for harm reduction. If you feel better with supplementation than without, you'll probably continue doing it. My one personal experience with 5-HTP and green tea felt like it did good, so I'll probably do it again. Behaviorism, lol.

 

[JWills20]

The real benefit to supplementing 5-HTP is after you've consumed MDMA and i'll try to explain from my admittedly limited knowledge.

The process of serotonin synthesis follows a few metabolic actions: L-Tryptophan > 5-HTP > Serotonin. The conversion from L-Tryptophan > 5-HTP requires an enzyme called Tryptophan Hydroxylase (TPH). MDMA completely depletes and inhibits the reproduction of this very important enzyme for prolonged periods (Unsure how long on average, but I believe its 2+weeks before it returns to be fully functional). Consequently, your body cannot naturally metabolize L-Tryptophan into 5-HTP and thus Serotonin re-synthesis is a slow, arduous process (hence the importance of moderation).

If you therefore supplement 5-HTP when TPH is completely depleted & inhibited post MDMA-consumption, you can create serotonin and thereby potentially minimize the comedown. If you were to avoid 5-HTP and eat foods naturally high in L-Tryptophan, as Folley suggested, you wouldn't synthesise serotonin.

It goes completely against HR to tell someone to 'throw away' 5-HTP, while not perfect, it definitely has its uses.

 

[Folley]

If you were to avoid 5-HTP and eat foods naturally high in L-Tryptophan, as Folley suggested, you wouldn't synthesise serotonin.

I took a look into this more, and it seems this may be correct.. though MDMA doesn't stop ALL serotonin synthesization, it does slow it down quite a bit.

"TPH is the rate-limiting step in the production of serotonin, meaning that even when there are enough building blocks (tryptophan) for more serotonin, it is the amount of TPH which determines how quickly serotonin can be restored. Researchers have shown that TPH is inactivated by oxidative radicals and it is possible that protecting this enzyme from oxidation may increase the speed with which the brain is able to recover normal levels of serotonin. Even if MDMA never reaches neurotoxic levels, antioxidants may help the brain and body recover more quickly after the effects subside."
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_article3.shtml

It seems to me in this case that TPH would be MUCH more beneficial than 5-HTP, though this is where my knowledge on the subject ends.

5-HTP has it's uses, I can't deny that. But I think taking it as a daily supplement can cause much more harm than good in the long run, however for me to say it can't be helpful in the short term would be just denying evidence. When 5-HTP is where it's supposed to be, it can be VERY helpful. It's when it's in the wrong places that I worry.

It goes completely against HR to tell someone to 'throw away' 5-HTP, while not perfect, it definitely has its uses.

Well, I'm just trying to minimize Harm from these "supplements" (snake oils).. I am sorry if I overstepped my knowledge, however I still think there are some valid concerns over 5-HTP, and I would not recommend it to anyone until more is learned about the serotonin system as a whole.

 

[p7yon]

The real benefit to supplementing 5-HTP is after you've consumed MDMA and i'll try to explain from my admittedly limited knowledge.

Thanks, Jwills. That's more or less what I've registered after reading about 5-HTP and pre/postloading. As far as I can tell it's uncertain if 5-HTP actually is used to allow serotonin to pass the brain barriern where it's needed. Some advice say take green tea or green tea ECGC extract (mega supplement thread and ECGC thread). I don't have the necessary knowledge to say if such statements are true or false. Who knows, it seems to me that no one really knows for sure. But hey, I like green tea and honey. I can have a cup or two with my tasty gelatin caps of 5-HTP a day or three after taking MDMA. Prolonged consumption of 5-HTP may have adverse effects for all I know, but I believe that's really besides the point here.

5-HTP has it's uses, I can't deny that. But I think taking it as a daily supplement can cause much more harm than good in the long run, however for me to say it can't be helpful in the short term would be just denying evidence. When 5-HTP is where it's supposed to be, it can be VERY helpful. It's when it's in the wrong places that I worry.

From my limited dive into the subject I don't think anyone's suggesting taking 5-HTP daily, do you? The way I get it's used for postloading for a week or so after taking MDMA. Something about messing up dopamine receptors or whatnot if you use for more than a week. I'm out of my element here, haha. I agree that erring on the side of caution is wise. You may be on to something with TPH, but where the hell would you get that? 5-HTP I can order of Amazon.

I don't do MDMA a lot, it's the drug I have the most respect for. I've set a limit for myself with at least 2 months between MDMA sessions. I have no problem with this. As far as harm reduction goes I'll do my best to make sense of it all. Sorry for making the thread go off topic, but this stuff is fascinating

 

[Folley]

I agree, this is generating some good discussion, but is quite off topic for this thread.. perhaps someone would like to revive one of the old Supplement threads?


But yeah, I have heard of quite a few people taking 5-HTP for extended periods of time.. that's how the bottle directs you to use it, no? Some people seem to think it's a good idea to load the brain with as much serotonin as possible.. but when most of those serotonin metabolites don't even reach the brain, extended use could cause some serious negative effects.

 

[JWills20]

I took a look into this more, and it seems this may be correct.. though MDMA doesn't stop ALL serotonin synthesization, it does slow it down quite a bit.

Probably correct, if all serotonin re-synthesis ceased after MDMA consumption - a hangover would be inevitable for everyone. As we know this is not the case.

It seems to me in this case that TPH would be MUCH more beneficial than 5-HTP, though this is where my knowledge on the subject ends.

I don't know anything, but judging by the fact its not sold over the counter or even known as a supplement, i'd guess that supplementing TPH doesn't work. Skipping the requirement for TPH with 5-HTP is the best option i've found.

5-HTP has it's uses, I can't deny that. But I think taking it as a daily supplement can cause much more harm than good in the long run, however for me to say it can't be helpful in the short term would be just denying evidence. When 5-HTP is where it's supposed to be, it can be VERY helpful. It's when it's in the wrong places that I worry.

Agreed. But comments like 'throw it away' really don't portray that. You have to respect that clinical studies have been conducted whereby participants take 5-HTP daily for months. Adverse effects to it really aren't as common as you suggest.

Well, I'm just trying to minimize Harm from these "supplements" (snake oils).. I am sorry if I overstepped my knowledge, however I still think there are some valid concerns over 5-HTP, and I would not recommend it to anyone until more is learned about the serotonin system as a whole.

Bit of a coppout really. By that statement we should avoid any drugs with serotonergic actions (including MDMA itself) as the literature lacks the in-depth, detailed knowledge.

Thanks, Jwills. That's more or less what I've registered after reading about 5-HTP and pre/postloading. As far as I can tell it's uncertain if 5-HTP actually is used to allow serotonin to pass the brain barriern where it's needed. Some advice say take green tea or green tea ECGC extract (mega supplement thread and ECGC thread). I don't have the necessary knowledge to say if such statements are true or false. Who knows, it seems to me that no one really knows for sure. But hey, I like green tea and honey. I can have a cup or two with my tasty gelatin caps of 5-HTP a day or three after taking MDMA. Prolonged consumption of 5-HTP may have adverse effects for all I know, but I believe that's really besides the point here.

@OP Yeah the blood-brain barrier is a massive issue with all neurotransmitters. Often 5-HTP supplements also contain vitamin B6 as it plays a role in enabling the transmitters to cross the BBB. My 5-HTP from Holland & Barrett contains vit B6 for these reasons i'd imagine. A great way to augment 5-HTP's effect, in my opinion, is to exercise while consuming it. Prolonged exercise (>30 mins) helps tryptophan cross the BBB which would then combine with the supplemented 5-HTP resulting in serotonin synthesis & some release. I can get you the reading if you're interested, its in a book I read for my dissertation in exercise & cognitive performance. Certainly has its uses in learning how exercise could have benefits both pre & post MDMA-consumption. Just PM me if you're interested.

 

[Folley]

Bit of a coppout really. By that statement we should avoid any drugs with serotonergic actions (including MDMA itself) as the literature lacks the in-depth, detailed knowledge.

No.. but what you are basically doing is trying to "supplement" your brain by throwing one certain chemical at it. This can will lead to an imbalance of serotonin, especially with daily use over long periods of time. When more is known about the system in general, and when there is a safe and proven way to increase serotonin levels in the short term without overloading your body with chemicals it doesn't need, I'll be all for it. But at this point chucking chemicals and vitamins in your body for months at a time and just hoping it does what it's supposed to do is not safe, in my opinion. That's why I try and debate the comments of just "take 5-HTP it makes you happier"



Certainly your body would only need so much 5-HTP as the TPH enzyme is only shut down for a short while, so how do you know when it's time to stop taking it?

 

[JWills20]

No.. but what you are basically doing is trying to "supplement" your brain by throwing one certain chemical at it. This can will lead to an imbalance of serotonin, especially with daily use over long periods of time. When more is known about the system in general, and when there is a safe and proven way to increase serotonin levels in the short term without overloading your body with chemicals it doesn't need, I'll be all for it. But at this point chucking chemicals and vitamins in your body for months at a time and just hoping it does what it's supposed to do is not safe, in my opinion. That's why I try and debate the comments of just "take 5-HTP it makes you happier"



Certainly your body would only need so much 5-HTP as the TPH enzyme is only shut down for a short while, so how do you know when it's time to stop taking it?

C'mon Folley, if you want a proper discussion regarding 5-HTP - don't pick and choose my criticisms that take your fancy. I said in a previous point that clinical studies have been conducted on 5-HTP of which participants do consume 5-HTP daily for months and positive effects have been displayed. I won't, however, disregard the potential for a negative effect from 5-HTP but I think you overplay its relevance.

 

[Folley]

This isn't really the place for a proper discussion on 5-HTP, though. In the directory there is a Supplement MEGA thread that would be the perfect place to continue talking about this, as I think it's a good topic and should be in the proper place so others can read it as well.


As I said though, I was originally just trying to point out that a simple "just take 5-HTP" suggestion to everyone who has ever had a comedown has almost just as much potential to hurt as it does to do good. With the proper evidence and research behind that suggestion and a structure dosing plan, you're right, the negatives would be very very little.

 

[JWills20]

This isn't really the place for a proper discussion on 5-HTP, though. In the directory there is a Supplement MEGA thread that would be the perfect place to continue talking about this, as I think it's a good topic and should be in the proper place so others can read it as well.


As I said though, I was originally just trying to point out that a simple "just take 5-HTP" suggestion to everyone who has ever had a comedown has almost just as much potential to hurt as it does to do good. With the proper evidence and research behind that suggestion and a structure dosing plan, you're right, the negatives would be very very little.

By all means feel free to move these posts over to the supplements thread. I understand your point and reasoning behind not readily advocating 5-HTP as some sort of entirely safe cure. However, I feel like i'm beating a dead horse here, but clinical studies have been conducted which have adopted what is, in your opinion, unsafe 5-HTP dosing regimes and reported positive effects and minimal side effects. If controlled, clinical studies have reported that daily use for months often reports no ill effects, how does 5-HTP have the potential to cause more hurt than it does good? Granted, the sampled populations are often individuals experiencing some degree of depression and thus have decreased serotonergic activity. This could maybe result in external 5-HTP administration not exceeding the natural chemical balance for that population minimizing side-effects. However, post MDMA, individuals often report depressive symptoms so they would, potentially, conjugate with the populations tested. Considering the extremely slow rate of TPH recovery, I doubt healthy populations supplementing 5-HTP daily for a few months post MDMA-consumption would significantly exceed their chemical balance and thereby experience negative side-effects.