"Medical" Morphine Addiction Help

[neversickanymore]

I would recommend just jumping off at this point. I believe you are one of if not the opiate with the shortest half life, witch means that the withdraws will be as short as they come. You are down to a pretty low dose. IMO I would just make my mind up and take the plunge. Yep your going to be sick but it wont be as bad as you think its going to be. IMO the worst thing to do when you finally detox is to just lay around and feel sorry for yourself. For me it always just made the cravings stupid intense and made the clock stand still. you wont believe me but the best thing to do is to plan as much stuff to try and do, as possible, you wont be sleeping and laying around hurts just as much or more than moving. Try and push past the fatigue. Look into clonidine as a possible aid, IMO trying to lessen the withdrawals with another opiate will just make the length of time sick increase significantly. If you go in thinking its going to be the end of the world then it will. I think you will feel pretty sick but you will be functioning and able to move around for most if not all of it. Again I think the worst thing in the world is to just lay around concentrating on how uncomfortable you feel, craving like a fiend.. Better to recruit a friend to motivate you to do something even when you insist that there is no way you can do anything (I know a crazy junkie that cleaned up while driving alone from California to Pennsylvania, Last nail in LA, 4 hours of pleasant driving, yep four hours away from her normal connections and used the sleeplessness to drive strait through.. yeah, i cant imagine the RLS combined with a sixty hour car ride either, she and her dog and an occasionally used puke pail arrived a little spun from it all but just about cleaned up), laugh at you when you try and cry, and remind you that this is only temporary and that as you said the opiate is causing more pain than it ever prevented, oh and to take your phone away and sit on your head when you try and call your doctor.. really its allot easier with support. You can do this JUMP, IT WON"T LOOK ANY BETTER EVER , you can find some good support on the http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/667018-March-staying-clean-thread. Allot of really good people on there, allot who were just where you will be.. they made it so will you. Keep us posted.

 

[rodneyrdr]

Have you considered suboxone or methadone maintenance?

 

[neversickanymore]

Have you considered suboxone or methadone maintenance?

That would be something that I would not consider. IMO what is it 20mg of morphine, with a half life of 120 minutes is something I would never trade for X#of mgs of subs(HL=20-73 hours) or methadone (HL=8-60 hours with some people registering a WHOPPING 140 hour half life).

20-10 2
10-5 4
5-2.5 6
2.5-1.25 8
1.25-0 10hours till about 0mg morpine..
then add three days at the VERY most for that small amount, but now i'm thinking that he just may be able to walk away from this without getting really sick at all, Ill be hoping for that.. Ha two days from the time he TOOK his last dose he should be out of the woods or looking at the edge, that's if he even wanders into the woods and just doesn't muck around in the bushes for a few.

on half life and detox-->http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/08/life-drug-detoxification.html

 

[NamelessNomad]

I would recommend just jumping off at this point. I believe you are one of if not the opiate with the shortest half life, witch means that the withdraws will be as short as they come. You are down to a pretty low dose. IMO I would just make my mind up and take the plunge. Yep your going to be sick but it wont be as bad as you think its going to be. IMO the worst thing to do when you finally detox is to just lay around and feel sorry for yourself. For me it always just made the cravings stupid intense and made the clock stand still. you wont believe me but the best thing to do is to plan as much stuff to try and do, as possible, you wont be sleeping and laying around hurts just as much or more than moving. Try and push past the fatigue. Look into clonidine as a possible aid, IMO trying to lessen the withdrawals with another opiate will just make the length of time sick increase significantly. If you go in thinking its going to be the end of the world then it will. I think you will feel pretty sick but you will be functioning and able to move around for most if not all of it. Again I think the worst thing in the world is to just lay around concentrating on how uncomfortable you feel, craving like a fiend.. Better to recruit a friend to motivate you to do something even when you insist that there is no way you can do anything (I know a crazy junkie that cleaned up while driving alone from California to Pennsylvania, Last nail in LA, 4 hours of pleasant driving, yep four hours away from her normal connections and used the sleeplessness to drive strait through.. yeah, i cant imagine the RLS combined with a sixty hour car ride either, she and her dog and an occasionally used puke pail arrived a little spun from it all but just about cleaned up), laugh at you when you try and cry, and remind you that this is only temporary and that as you said the opiate is causing more pain than it ever prevented, oh and to take your phone away and sit on your head when you try and call your doctor.. really its allot easier with support. You can do this JUMP, IT WON"T LOOK ANY BETTER EVER , you can find some good support on the http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/667018-March-staying-clean-thread. Allot of really good people on there, allot who were just where you will be.. they made it so will you. Keep us posted.

Well I've taken my last two tablets again today 8) , so basically I've still continued to average about 25mg per day. And now I'm stuffed until at least Tuesday (for morphine anyway) because its Easter. You are completely right I do need to reach out to friends, in the last few months I've more a less become a recluse which is the inverse of what I used to be. I do feel like I've been withdrawn from the morphine too quickly without any support from therapists, etc. I'm not sure whether I'm going to be able to stop myself asking for a maintainence dosage for now pending professional psycological help but I will try. Every time I try to go through a day taking less than 20mg its just absolute hell and as I think I've already mentioned the severity of the pain is also absolute hell at the moment.

I am trying to jump but I'll be the first to admit that I'm staggerring. The only things that I'm finding that are helping at the moment are the CBT technique's that SwimmingDancer posted up a link to in one of the posts above and also the support from people on here really is making a difference. I think you are right, there are some really decent people on here in general. Thanks for advice by the way.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

I hope you're doing ok. Sending you good vibes . If you can get through the first week it will start to get easier after that.

There are also a lot of threads here and in Other Drugs about things you can do (exercise, sleep hygiene, meditation, etc) and - mostly in Other Drugs - take (everything from vitamins, supplements, herbs, to OTC drugs to Rx drugs) to help with the withdrawal symptoms, pain, insomnia etc, but make sure to thoroughly research anything first if you're considering taking something (and of course it's ideal to talk to a health care practitioner but I would do my own research as well - IME doctors don't know as much about WD but they can at least normally tell you if something is unsafe or contraindicated with a med you are currently taking). Let me know if you want links to helpful threads or if you want advice on more non-drug options. I'm away for the weekend so I might not reply right away, sorry. Hang in there!

 

[neversickanymore]

Well I've taken my last two tablets again today 8) , so basically I've still continued to average about 25mg per day. And now I'm stuffed until at least Tuesday (for morphine anyway) because its Easter. You are completely right I do need to reach out to friends, in the last few months I've more a less become a recluse which is the inverse of what I used to be. I do feel like I've been withdrawn from the morphine too quickly without any support from therapists, etc. I'm not sure whether I'm going to be able to stop myself asking for a maintainence dosage for now pending professional psycological help but I will try. Every time I try to go through a day taking less than 20mg its just absolute hell and as I think I've already mentioned the severity of the pain is also absolute hell at the moment.

I am trying to jump but I'll be the first to admit that I'm staggerring. The only things that I'm finding that are helping at the moment are the CBT technique's that SwimmingDancer posted up a link to in one of the posts above and also the support from people on here really is making a difference. I think you are right, there are some really decent people on here in general. Thanks for advice by the way.

A couple things about addiction that you may not no.. Our addictions like and drive us towards isolation. If a person has some clean time and they find themselves isolating more and more this is a definite sign that a relapse may be coming and that something needs to be done.. narcotics anonymous or NA reminds people of the fact by equating the NA to NEVER ALONE.. you have a substantial addiction going, it will only get much worse if you continue down its path.. also it is really important that you remember that the addicted part of your brain controls pain which means it can create pain, and it does to try and make you use. This is why if you think about the pain you have closely you may even realize that it is much worse even when medicated than when it was not medicated. Also this pain as well as the new ones you may have been experiencing while tapering will get heightened or dramatically increased while detoxing.. this is normal and it will return to pre opiate levels so don't let that convince you that you need that junk and will need it forever. I will talk to a someone who may know about non narcotic pain relief for your situation, cant promise anything but you should talk with a pain Dr that specializes in alternative pain relief. Also check into clonidine to help you with these withdraw systems.. hang in there, it get better quickly though it may not seem like it now.. thank your lucky stars that your on morphine as detox of some of the others last allot ALLOT longer.. you can do this.. do you have any friends that have experienced this, if so give them a call.. otherwise, keep moving, keep yourself busy, laying around feeling miserable is worse than doing something while miserable.. takes your mind of it, I kNOW just a little, but everything counts, push your self and go to a movie, or hit a hot tub or a spa, I know it really messes with the temperature gage.. don't just lay there and freak if you can possibly help it, your addiction will try and keep you there alone buy telling you cant have people see you this sick.. the hell with that and the hell with what other people think.. Your doing great

Edit: looks like your three days or so out from the initial miracle.. If you really want to try this then I would call and leave a message at your doctors office saying that your going to take this detox off opiates all the way and then evaluate your pain and options for treating it but you would like to discuss things he can do to help you with the withdraws.. Clonidine will most likely really help.. If you do not make this call then you will leave the door wide open to get more and it will be really REALLY REALLY hard to resist on monday. the addiction will also use ALL EMOTIONS to drive you.. look at the emotions you have and even if they are based on a specific memory or event realistically judge you emotional response to them, yep the brain can really play head games with itself to try and motivate use.. remember you are awesome because it will most likely use everything in its power to try and convince you otherwise.. Fight fight fight, your worth it.

 

[NamelessNomad]

I hope you're doing ok. Sending you good vibes . If you can get through the first week it will start to get easier after that.

Thank you, genuinely appreciate it.

There are also a lot of threads here and in Other Drugs about things you can do (exercise, sleep hygiene, meditation, etc) and - mostly in Other Drugs - take (everything from vitamins, supplements, herbs, to OTC drugs to Rx drugs) to help with the withdrawal symptoms, pain, insomnia etc, but make sure to thoroughly research anything first if you're considering taking something (and of course it's ideal to talk to a health care practitioner but I would do my own research as well - IME doctors don't know as much about WD but they can at least normally tell you if something is unsafe or contraindicated with a med you are currently taking). Let me know if you want links to helpful threads or if you want advice on more non-drug options. I'm away for the weekend so I might not reply right away, sorry. Hang in there!

Cheers I will take a look at the various threads and post back if I need any more help. No problem, have a good weekend.

 

[NamelessNomad]

A couple things about addiction that you may not no.. Our addictions like and drive us towards isolation. If a person has some clean time and they find themselves isolating more and more this is a definite sign that a relapse may be coming and that something needs to be done.. narcotics anonymous or NA reminds people of the fact by equating the NA to NEVER ALONE.. you have a substantial addiction going, it will only get much worse if you continue down its path..

Basically I don't have much knowledge regarding the study of addictions or however you would put it but consequently I'm very interested in learning . I wasn't actively aware of the isolation thing but I did have my suspicions because I never used to isolate myself before I had the addiction problem. Thanks for the explanation regarding that, it definitely makes sense and helps to understand it. Also I decided to do something about it in the immediate sense and just arranged to go out tommorrow, only a small step but it all helps

also it is really important that you remember that the addicted part of your brain controls pain which means it can create pain, and it does to try and make you use.

No I was not aware of that at all and I'd be very interested if you have any links regarding that. If not I'll try to find some. Obviously its very relevant to my situation. I was aware that the contraindications of morphine overuse included nerve sensitization for instance but not that the reward circuits were somehow implicated in this.

This is why if you think about the pain you have closely you may even realize that it is much worse even when medicated than when it was not medicated. Also this pain as well as the new ones you may have been experiencing while tapering will get heightened or dramatically increased while detoxing.. this is normal and it will return to pre opiate levels so don't let that convince you that you need that junk and will need it forever. I will talk to a someone who may know about non narcotic pain relief for your situation, cant promise anything but you should talk with a pain Dr that specializes in alternative pain relief. Also check into clonidine to help you with these withdraw systems.. hang in there, it get better quickly though it may not seem like it now.. thank your lucky stars that your on morphine as detox of some of the others last allot ALLOT longer.. you can do this.. do you have any friends that have experienced this, if so give them a call.. otherwise, keep moving, keep yourself busy, laying around feeling miserable is worse than doing something while miserable.. takes your mind of it, I kNOW just a little, but everything counts, push your self and go to a movie, or hit a hot tub or a spa, I know it really messes with the temperature gage.. don't just lay there and freak if you can possibly help it, your addiction will try and keep you there alone buy telling you cant have people see you this sick.. the hell with that and the hell with what other people think.. Your doing great

Yeah I realise that the addiction tries to screw with our heads and finds a suprising number of ways to convince us that its a good idea to carry on taking whatever substance our brain is demanding. I have tried various different conventional and alternative treatments over the years, few were ever very effective unfortunately. Clonidine is not something I'm familiar with, is it an opioid agonist? How does it help with the withdrawal symptoms? I don't have any friends who have addiction problems but I have opened up to a couple of my closer friends about it.

Edit: looks like your three days or so out from the initial miracle.. If you really want to try this then I would call and leave a message at your doctors office saying that your going to take this detox off opiates all the way and then evaluate your pain and options for treating it but you would like to discuss things he can do to help you with the withdraws.. Clonidine will most likely really help.. If you do not make this call then you will leave the door wide open to get more and it will be really REALLY REALLY hard to resist on monday. the addiction will also use ALL EMOTIONS to drive you.. look at the emotions you have and even if they are based on a specific memory or event realistically judge you emotional response to them, yep the brain can really play head games with itself to try and motivate use.. remember you are awesome because it will most likely use everything in its power to try and convince you otherwise.. Fight fight fight, your worth it.

Unfortunately I couldn't do that if I wanted to as when my doctors is shut calls just go straight through to the local hospital who run an out of hours service (and don't really have a close connection to my actual doctors).

Thanks for the encouragement by the way I do appreciate it and definitely feel a lot more confident about coping with the next couple of days

 

[neversickanymore]

As far as clonidine it is non habit forming and is not a narcotic.. Here is some info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonidine http://www.drugs.com/misspellings/clonodine.html

I believe Sepher or swimingdancer might be able to tell you more about exactly how it works.. but it does help a great deal for most people!

read a little through this thread as i posted some good stuff on addiction in it http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...tramadol-addiction-withdrawal-day-10-help-plz

Also there are allot of good posts, ideas, and suport on the http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/667018-March-staying-clean-thread if i were you I would takr time to read it, on page eight I posted a little more on how addiction works and how it comes at you.. you may also want to join the april staying clean thread when it comes out.. you will probably have a much better time of it and also a much better chance of success if you get some support. There are different ways and approaches to do this.. AA/NA is one and SMART is another.. do not ever be scared or ashamed at the fact that you have an addiction, remember three of the emotions it will try and use are loneliness, shame or guilt, and fear.. the people that make it possible to survive addiction and be happy are the ones who have been right where you are.. all us addicts keep a special place in our hearts for our own, we all know that only buy being able to lean on each other will be able to stay clean. don't hesitate don't be afraid.. get yourself a support network, walking out of hell is hard, but it crazy to try and do it yourself.. hang in there, its a long journey but it gets better quick:D

 

[Swimmingdancer]

No I was not aware of that at all and I'd be very interested if you have any links regarding that. If not I'll try to find some. Obviously its very relevant to my situation. I was aware that the contraindications of morphine overuse included nerve sensitization for instance but not that the reward circuits were somehow implicated

"The addicted part of your brain" is kind of vague. Multiple mechanisms are at play. Look up opioid-induced hyperalgesia, and psychological conditioning to start with. Another thing is possible changes in hormone, vitamin, neurotransmitter and endorphin levels. And we also get so used to taking the drug in response to pain. I can post some info/studies re hyperalgesia and allodynia from opioids if you're interested.

My pain is actually slowly starting to improve since quitting opioids. Of course acute withdrawal is very painful, but if you can make it through that you can start getting a better idea of what you feel like without opioids.

I swear gabapentin was causing me some specific types of pain too (it helped with opioid WD though and was worth it for that purpose, but I've since stopped taking it). Gabapentin is such a weird drug.

Clonidine is not something I'm familiar with, is it an opioid agonist?

Not an opioid. It's a blood pressure med but is also useful for WD from opioids and is one of the most commonly prescribed for that purpose as it is not considered "addictive" and the only WD it really causes itself is for your blood pressure to go up if you take it long enough and then stop too abruptly. It does have some side effects like potentially lowering your blood pressure too much or making you feel sedated and zombified. Look it up, there's tons of info in Other Drugs and on Google Scholar.

 

[neversickanymore]

In my opinion and what I am referring to as the addicted part of the brain is the Limbic system. I have not experienced or heard of any symptom of PAWS or addiction that it isn't responsible for besides the one right before relapse.. the choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system

http://www.humanneurophysiology.com/hypothalamus.htm

After practice with the skill, the prefrontal cortex, parietal cortex, and cerebellum all showed less activity, and other structures, including the motor cortex and nearby supplementary motor cortex, become more engaged. (Squire & Kandel; Memory, 178 )

http://willcov.com/bio-consciousness/front/Synopsis of Consciousness.htm

IMO.. one of the greatest delusions we face is that we are in control, we (prefrontal cortex.. conscious thought and free will) are only a tool of who is really driving,

Nameless N, I hope you are doing good and hanging in there.. it gets better quick.. please check through those posts and check out the links.. I believe it will be verry benifitial to you in what you are and will experience.. remember you are awesome!!

Edit: Yes, please get your testosterone checked if you are a male as with opiate use as long as yours there is more than a good chance that it is very low as well as other tests a quality phys would want.

 

[NamelessNomad]

Nameless N, I hope you are doing good and hanging in there.. it gets better quick.. please check through those posts and check out the links.. I believe it will be verry benifitial to you in what you are and will experience

Again sorry for the slight delay in replies... I sort of wasn't doing OK in that the withdrawal symptoms peaked last night and I'm 100% certain that if I could have got hold of some morphine I would have taken it. However when I woke up today, approaching the 72 hour mark, the cravings had slightly reduced and for whatever reason my chronic pain was significantly better which is probably what made the most difference. I've had some muscle aches and other minor stuff but thankfully some of the more serious symptoms such as vomiting never materialised. Anyway I had an appointment to see my doctor this morning, he actually offerred me another 7 days worth of low dosage morphine which I turned down as I didn't see the point in going through this all over again in a week's time. In the end I ended up with a weeks worth of diazepam/Valium at 2mg/day to help mitigate the remainder of the withdrawal symptoms.

Yeah I will definitely have a look at those threads, I've just been in so much pain up until now that I haven't felt up to reading a lot of stuff.

"The addicted part of your brain" is kind of vague. Multiple mechanisms are at play. Look up opioid-induced hyperalgesia, and psychological conditioning to start with. Another thing is possible changes in hormone, vitamin, neurotransmitter and endorphin levels. And we also get so used to taking the drug in response to pain. I can post some info/studies re hyperalgesia and allodynia from opioids if you're interested.

My pain is actually slowly starting to improve since quitting opioids. Of course acute withdrawal is very painful, but if you can make it through that you can start getting a better idea of what you feel like without opioids.

Yeah I've been reading into opioid-induced hyperalgesia a bit, my body's reaction to me suddenly withdrawing a guaranteed daily supply of morphine was never going to be a great one initially and has been extremely painfull but already I think I might be starting to feel some benefits from it. In the past I always used to find that my pain would improve relatively quickly if I decreased the frequency after taking opiates too often.

I swear gabapentin was causing me some specific types of pain too (it helped with opioid WD though and was worth it for that purpose, but I've since stopped taking it). Gabapentin is such a weird drug.

I've found that drugs in the same class as Gabapentin can produce some strange effects if you do things like miss doses but maybe you mean strange in the way that it acts on neuropathic pain which in itself is a poorly understood phonomena.

 

[neversickanymore]

NICE WORK NAMELESS.. I think you played it almost perfect.. check out the paws stuff when you get a chance.. I dont know why they dont switch people trying to detox to morphine.. such a short half life is amazing.. I hope you experience a dramatic decrease in the pain. Nice work!

 

[NamelessNomad]

NICE WORK NAMELESS.. I think you played it almost perfect.. check out the paws stuff when you get a chance.. I dont know why they dont switch people trying to detox to morphine.. such a short half life is amazing.. I hope you experience a dramatic decrease in the pain. Nice work!

Yeah I have read into PAWS a bit already, day 4 now and I would say that the cravings and other withdrawal symptoms have definitely tailed of quite significantly. The diazepam is probably helping a bit.

I think one of the hardest things going forward is going to be readjusting psycologically. By this I mean getting used to not being able to depend on morphine for pain relief and having to 'deal with it' when it does get bad because I think that I may see improvements overall but I will still probably get bad bouts of pain at times.

With regards to why they don't use morphine in detox could it be related to the stigma that some governmental or medical bodies might attach to morphine when used in this context? I mean because morphine is the active metabolite in heroin which means that morphine and heroin/diamorphine are pretty much the same drug, albeit morphine being weaker. Having only ever taken morphine (and weaker opioids) I can't really comment on methadone etc except to say that it is pretty obvious that it would be far easier to come off of morphine. Morphine is capable of producing significant europhia even orally in high doses so I don't know if that has anything to do with it.