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MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 5)

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@ MYH1234. Yeah, good for you man. Keep fighting! I have dp/dr, brain fog and pressure in the head. Floaters, star bursts and visual snow. Inability to exercise also. I am going to keep going and keep fighting no matter what. I also have to add just in case. In my experience best to avoid drugs/alcohol, caffeine, trazadone, 5htp and SSRI's(at the beginning). F'ing pisses me off when people write "hey, i drink coffee and I'm fine." Plants the seed in people's head that it's ok to cheat.
 
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Waking up earlier (which may involve sleeping earlier), eating breakfast and then exercising (but waiting after breakfast--don't want cramps or anything) is something that helps me personally with this.

I feel like its important to get that jolt of early morning cortisol/HPA axis stimulation.

Also last week I felt pretty good and this week I am feeling depressed again and it gets escalated. What I don't understand is that, given I again cannot identify a trigger--not even any supplement or whatever-- how is a psychology technique supposed to help if nothing psychological has *caused* a downturn? Do I have too high expectations of being completely cured with these techniques? Is that the issue?
 
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I've been too exhausted lately to exercise so often; that alone is surely an indication of your good health. I suffer from fatigue quite a lot lately. Seems to be rooted in my brain which gets tired easier than it used to.

I'm the same, constantly up and down. The variation between moods is so pronounced. I can go from feeling absolutely fine, albeit never super happy but perfectly content and confident in myself, to all of my symptoms aggravated, utter despair and hopelessness and even slight, DP/DR which I seem to have overcome for the most part. And it doesn't appear to be triggered by anything in particular.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter if the cause isn't psychological because we still experience through the psyche...getting a bit vague there. But mindfulness offers relief in spite of symptoms. Expecting anything i.e. remission of condition in itself isn't mindfulness and will only further your attachment to remote ideas of how you wish you were. Perhaps we're going to get to where we want to be eventually. I take it for granted we will. But it also has nothing to do with your expectations/thinking. That's also why mindfulness can be effective, because it's independent of conditions. You only need to attune the mind.
 
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@ MYH1234. Yeah, good for you man. Keep fighting! I have dp/dr, brain fog and pressure in the head. Floaters, star bursts and visual snow. Inability to exercise also. I am going to keep going and keep fighting no matter what. I also have to add just in case. In my experience best to avoid drugs/alcohol, caffeine, trazadone, 5htp and SSRI's(at the beginning). F'ing pisses me off when people write "hey, i drink coffee and I'm fine." Plants the seed in people's head that it's ok to cheat.

That sucks that you can't exercise, yeah I realised that quite a while ago when my symptoms were milder, coffee is the worst for triggering my symptoms, even a cup of tea makes me feel weird. Most people are incredulous when I tell them I don't do caffeine. The only thing I do take is Neurozan and fish oils daily, which I like to think is helping but I can't really tell, apparently they do help. I also tried Piracetam but that made me feel a bit strange so I stopped that.
 
Also last week I felt pretty good and this week I am feeling depressed again and it gets escalated. What I don't understand is that, given I again cannot identify a trigger--not even any supplement or whatever-- how is a psychology technique supposed to help if nothing psychological has *caused* a downturn? Do I have too high expectations of being completely cured with these techniques? Is that the issue?

My guess is that there are many things that aren't known to us consciously, both in form of activity in the subconscious parts of brains as well as changes that are happening incrementally in the more conscious parts but they aren't appreciable until they reach a critical mass.

So for example, maybe rumination causes stimulation of a certain group of cells that can cause a change in protein expression in said cells; but this change in protein expression only leads to an appreciable change in those cells function (and hence our consciousness) once the changes reach a certain threshold. Then the neural activity shifts to a different state like depression, the aforementioned stimulation of said brain cells decreases, and then the problematic protein expression decreases, and then the depression lifts.

But the point is that much of this cycle would be unknown to us. We could go through a cycle like this and attach meaning to random things like "Oh I ate meat the night before my depression returned! Maybe its something in the meat!" but things like changes in protein expression reaching an appreciable threshold would be subjectively mysterious.

In the same vein, some changes in e.g. protein expression with mindfulness could also be subjectively mysterious, and might also have a similar threshold thing going on.
 
My guess is that there are many things that aren't known to us consciously, both in form of activity in the subconscious parts of brains as well as changes that are happening incrementally in the more conscious parts but they aren't appreciable until they reach a critical mass.

So for example, maybe rumination causes stimulation of a certain group of cells that can cause a change in protein expression in said cells; but this change in protein expression only leads to an appreciable change in those cells function (and hence our consciousness) once the changes reach a certain threshold. Then the neural activity shifts to a different state like depression, the aforementioned stimulation of said brain cells decreases, and then the problematic protein expression decreases, and then the depression lifts.

But the point is that much of this cycle would be unknown to us. We could go through a cycle like this and attach meaning to random things like "Oh I ate meat the night before my depression returned! Maybe its something in the meat!" but things like changes in protein expression reaching an appreciable threshold would be subjectively mysterious.

In the same vein, some changes in e.g. protein expression with mindfulness could also be subjectively mysterious, and might also have a similar threshold thing going on.

Maybe you didn't mean it in this case and were just giving an example but I know rumination certainly *did not* cause this recent downturn/setback and neither did a supplement or medication. It happened *out of nowhere* with no stress at all. So it does make me wonder why do a majority of mental health things focus so much on the psychology or stress aspect of it when its possible to have a mental illness but have no stress in your life at all.

I was definitely not ruminating because my level of rumination is directly proportional to how bad I feel. So when I feel worse, my rumination is also worse.

So it feels like something biological has caused this but like you said we don't know what it is exactly. Where exactly do the psychological techniques come in when its something 'mysterious' biological causes a random mood swing in a negative direction? Ideally, the psychological techniques would prevent this from even happening but it doesn't seem to be the case and it just happens anyways without ANY perturbation which feels out of my control if you know what I mean.

But I really do question the efficacy of some of these therapies in times like this. My expectation is that they completely restore things back to normal and the mood swings or downturns don't happen. But evidently its possible to have the mood setbacks happen even without any conscious thoughts or rumination. So that makes me wonder why is still a huge focus when a better therapeutic target seems to be just prevent the low moods from occuring in the first place. And I guess thats where "stress management" supposedly comes in but that again gets thrown out when the low mood is inherently random. I am doing CBT and I'm having some trouble with the thought logs here since I cannot easily identify a thought which caused it--there is none.
 
Well, not to goal-post shift, but it may not have to be rumination in the classic sense that ends up causing a large shift later on.

For example, there could be particular sets of neurons that respond to specific stimuli, say for example a specific set of neurons that get activated when you see a picture of Ryan Gosling (this is actually likely the case). The brain has "gain" such so that a small change at one time can blossom into a larger change later on - but one may not be able to connect the dots.

The insignificant stimuli, or even internally generated stimuli, and the eventual significant changes in consciousness/biology (if only changed for a few days until homeostasis resets that bit) might be difficult for us to link together. As paranoia inducing as that may sound ("What random thoughts for the past few days caused my week of depression"), I'd encourage us not to read too much into it.

Some people may be pre-disposed to flip flop up and down, such as in the case of bi-polar where there is thought to be a large genetic component (although stress certainly magnifies the risk of developing bipolar).

I'll throw this in here

"Meta-analyses examining the efficacy of CBT for bipolar disorder revealed small to medium overall effect sizes of CBT at post-treatment, with effects typically diminishing slightly at follow-up. These findings emerged from examinations of both manic and depressive symptoms associated with bipolar disorder (e.g., Gregory, 2010a, 2010b). There is little evidence that CBT as a stand-alone treatment (rather than as an adjunct to pharmacotherapy) is effective for the treatment of bipolar disorder.

In addition to examining CBT for attenuating symptoms of bipolar disorder, some meta-analyses focused on the efficacy of CBT for preventing relapse in bipolar patients. One study (Beynon et al., 2008) examined the efficacy of CBT for preventing relapse and found it to be somewhat effective when comparing CBT vs. treatment as usual.

Overall, CBT for bipolar disorder was an effective method of preventing or delaying relapses (e.g., Lam, Burbeck, Wright, & Pilling, 2009; Cakir & Ozerdem, 2010). Furthermore, the efficacy of CBT at preventing relapse did not seem to be influenced by the number of previous manic or depressive episodes."


So even in the case of strong genetic/biological causality, CBT can still have some uses. Pharmacotherapy for bipolar is still very important to quell aberrant neural activity (that may almost be seizure-like) but its interesting to note that when many people take i.e. Depakote, they don't actually feel different or notice anything subjectively, even if their manic episodes are significantly reduced. So there are cases where people don't subjectively feel a drug working, but they objectively improve.
 
Has anyone had their floaters fade away?

Here is jusr my experience with them-- a few weeks back I started notcing floaters randomly but they were always there. I just became hyperaware of them.

And as the hyperawareness died down then also the perception of floaters seemed to die down too and it seemed like my brain was "hiding" it more
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Anyways I am very very pissed for some reason no psychological technique is relieving my condition but then thinking about the whole mindfulness philosophy of "not trying for it" or whatever just tends to create even more agitation for me.

I want to get better and I want to do everything I can to get better and to get recover quickly. Preferably I would like to recover in the next 6 weeks. I need to recover faster so I can accomplish my goals at the highest level as before. But oh "thats thinking of the future fuckkkk I gotta go back to the chair im sitting on and the floor fuuck"

Thats the kind of thought process I have whenever I try mindfulness and bringing myself back to the present. The way I do it I cut-off the stream of rumination entirely but then end up just getting frustrated incredibly and give up.

No wonder it was initially studied for relapse prevention rather than the acute symptoms....
 
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Has anyone had their floaters fade away?

Not for me yet - I've had mine just over a year (they developed about a month into my LTC), although I've had discussions with both Delfin and Yar0nin who said that theirs faded in time - the former after about a year and the latter somewhere between 1-2 years.

I must admit I notice mine slightly less than I did a year ago, and some of the 'wires' that connect the dots are slightly more transparent now than the hairlike black strands they were 6 months ago. I'm hoping that trend will continue, but it is extremely slow progress and the black dots are just as strong as ever.

They are impacting me less though - 6 months ago if I flicked my eyes up to my computer screen and saw the floaters it would bring huge waves of anxiety across my body - to the point where it actually brought me physical pain (mostly in my feet oddly enough). They are now an annoyance more than anything and an everyday reminder that things are not normal.

Out of all my symptoms I probably wish these away the most. Fingers crossed that they fade completely - either via perception or in reality.
 
Has anyone had their floaters fade away?

I have been experiencing eye floaters for about 10 years now, they appeared suddenly and did not go away although ghey did become translucent over the years so that they do not obscure the vision unless you focus on them. Having floaters for me now is as natural as blinking. Seriously though, floaters are not to be feared.
 
Thanks guys, appreciate the info. Yeah mine aren't really connected, but they are big black translucent dots that float in the same pattern in and out of my vision. I had one minor one after the initial OD, then after my relapses I got way more. They give me some anxiety but not a ton, the tinnitus is the most annoying as it effects my sleep. If I look closely at a white surface and kinda cross my eyes I see visuals snow as well.....Lots of little white dots with little trails floating all around.

Anyway, had another weird reaction last night due to some garlic based dish, some herbal tea, and echinacea. Only way I was sleeping was to take a valium. Apparently echinacea, like the Kava, is a CB antagonist. Is anyone else sensitive to different herbs and things or supplements? I know it's not in my head.
 
Valerian could be a good option for anyone here with sleeping issues
 
Cotcha, have you looked into how Lamictal might treat some of the issues we have with LTCs? It's used to treat bipolar 2. It's not an SSRI either.

My shrink thinks that a lot of the symptoms I described resembles bipolar 2 and depression. I never had these before the LTC obviously. I've read some promising stuff about it but I declined the treatment until I gave exercise and mindfulness some more time.
 
Side effects can be problematic for some with lamotrigine, but it does have use in treating bipolar with a tendency towards depression.

I suppose I'd want somebody to try exercise and mindfulness, and then add in SSRIs if need be for quite a while before trying lamotrigine. Depakote is a similar drug that may be more tolerable side effects wise.

Definitely something to talk to a doctor about though, the mood stabilizers are in a very different class of drugs than SSRIs.
 
Side effects can be problematic for some with lamotrigine, but it does have use in treating bipolar with a tendency towards depression.

I suppose I'd want somebody to try exercise and mindfulness, and then add in SSRIs if need be for quite a while before trying lamotrigine. Depakote is a similar drug that may be more tolerable side effects wise.

Definitely something to talk to a doctor about though, the mood stabilizers are in a very different class of drugs than SSRIs.
Wouldn't lamotrigine be better/safer for someone with HPPD though?
 
In terms of physical side effects I would assume it'd be no safer but it might be safer as far as mental side effects for someone with just HPPD. There is a case report of remission of longstanding HPPD (post-LSD) with lamotrigine.
 
Thanks guys, appreciate the info. Yeah mine aren't really connected, but they are big black translucent dots that float in the same pattern in and out of my vision. I had one minor one after the initial OD, then after my relapses I got way more. They give me some anxiety but not a ton, the tinnitus is the most annoying as it effects my sleep. If I look closely at a white surface and kinda cross my eyes I see visuals snow as well.....Lots of little white dots with little trails floating all around.

Anyway, had another weird reaction last night due to some garlic based dish, some herbal tea, and echinacea. Only way I was sleeping was to take a valium. Apparently echinacea, like the Kava, is a CB antagonist. Is anyone else sensitive to different herbs and things or supplements? I know it's not in my head.

Hey Adubbs,

If it gives you any comfort, I got a bout of tinnitus after a big week on mdma in Ibiza about 6 years ago. Nowhere near the level it is at now though. I thought at the time it may have been due to noise exposure (despite not recalling any at the time) but in hindsight it was probably the MDMA.

I went from being slightly anxious about it when I got home, to not thinking about it, to one day realising it was gone.

I have faith that it'll happen again eventually as a part of this LTC.
 
I can attest that tinnitus comes and goes. I was experiencing it strongly a month or so ago so I went for a hearing test which consisted of listening to extremely faint beeps through headphones. I could barely hear them over my tinnitus but I scored averagely throughout. And it has subsided a lot since then. Visual snow has also subsided.
 
I also had migraine auras disappear and black floaters I get only in the shower now haha.
 
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