MDMA: Myths & Misinformation

[Invalid Usename]

Why do people like to like to spread myths regarding MDMA?

For example, I keep seeing people repeating the claim over and over (like a mantra) that MDMA will produce anxiety and panic attacks.

Yet:

• the neurotransmitters which trigger these affects are not serotonin nor dopamine related.
• it is very uncommon disorder among MDMA users

Unless someone was aspiring to become a poster boy for the NIDA, I really don't see what is so alluring about spreading rumors.

Granted, it is easy to become misinformed. But I've seen people continue to do it even after they've been shown that this is not the case.

I've even see people say things like "something that is this good MUST be bad for you." As though there is some kind of penance that must be paid to God for the wages of enjoying something. 8(

I'm even more surprised at the NIDA. They actually spend large sums of money spreading misinformation about MDMA, talking about occurring MDMA deaths (we're talking about 1 out of 500,000 users - NOT dosages - compare that to alcohol related deaths). And yet, the NIDA spends almost nothing on promoting the REAL health risks resulting from chronic methamphetamine use (which is a rapidly growing population, IS addictive, and WILL cause brain damage and psychosis).


I'm not saying that MDMA does not have its problems. Reduced serotonin stores can make you feel pretty crumby, or even depressed, for a few days (the degree of that depends on your personal tolerance to reduced serotonin levels). And let's not forget that it can temporarily effect your short term memory (albetit a slight effect). But these are not life shattering effects, and it can be avoided for the most part by taking 5-HTP afterwards. And none of this is long term.

And it has been demonstrated (time and time again) that repeated overdoses of MDMA can result in neurological damage (almost all MDMA studies have, until recently, been based on closely timed overdoses for extended periods of time). But these are far greater than recreational MDMA doses.

Does anyone have any clues as to why there is such a love affair with repeating false calims about MDMA?

 

[VelocideX]

People spread rumours not because they are rumours but because they are taken as gospel.

The NIDA site purports to be authoritative, and given the credentials of the people behind it you'd think it was... People read that, go "it must be true" and spread it.

I don't blame these people.... they aren't generally in a position to know about MDMA and have to take the best word available (NIDA -- run by people with lots of university degrees)...

 

[The HIGHroller]

I'm sorry if I don't follow, but are you suggesting that it is very rare or impossible to experience anxiety under the influence of MDMA?

If so, I'd have to disagree due to the fact that I've seen MANY people experience anxiety after popping a pill.

But perhaps that can be attributed to the other chemicals in the pill?

 

[dopeybeaneater]

I'm sorry if I don't follow, but are you suggesting that it is very rare or impossible to experience anxiety under the influence of MDMA?

If so, I'd have to disagree due to the fact that I've seen MANY people experience anxiety after popping a pill.

But perhaps that can be attributed to the other chemicals in the pill?

i believe that those anxiety attacks could have been from something else in the pill...it prolly wasn't 100% MDMA which is gettin' harder and harder to find

 

[dyscotopia]

in people already prone to anxiety or panic attacks any stimulating drug can produce such symptoms. even a cup of coffee. it has a lot to do with the mindset of the person when they take the pill. so i don't think it's exactly misinformation. panic and anxiety certainly aren't the normal characteristics of an MDMA experience, but they can occur, and frequent MDMA use can also exacerbate underlying conditions.

 

[Invalid Usename]

I'm sorry if I don't follow, but are you suggesting that it is very rare or impossible to experience anxiety under the influence of MDMA?

If so, I'd have to disagree due to the fact that I've seen MANY people experience anxiety after popping a pill.

But perhaps that can be attributed to the other chemicals in the pill?

I'm not saying that it isn't possible for someone to experience anxiety as a side effect of using MDMA. The fact that MDMA reduces serotonin, and thus the ability to mitigate stress responses, makes that possible.

What I'm attempting to raise as a discussion is the notion that MDMA has somehow caused an anatomic change or toxic effect which has produced it. And the problem that I have with that idea is that the neurotransmitters which produce anxiety (or invoke the "fight or flight response") are not effected by MDMA.

Thanks largely to the anti-drug promotions which are a part of our societies, MDMA has been given the air of having "mysterious" dangerous properties. And that these have reached a level of being equal to an unconscious and collective superstition. In other words, this is stress induced and is the result of a placebo effect.

The fact is, given the number of reports of anxiety and panic related disorders, that there is not that much difference between the MDMA using population and the non-MDMA using population. Anxiety and/or panic disorders are fairly common today. But due to the stigma of using MDMA, people will immediately attribute their problems directly to their MDMA use. And this further creates a situation which the sufferer "believes" that they are "damaged" which can result in maintaining that anxiety or panic state.

I personally do not believe that MDMA produces long term anxiety or panic disorders. And I feel that short term conditions are the result of an existing problem which is simply unveiled due to lowered serotonin levels. But the "belief" that "MDMA has damaged me" leads to a vicious cycle of false self evaluation which itself feeds anxiety.

Based on its pharmacodynamics and the few number of problem reports, I see no reason to conclude that MDMA produces these conditions. Granted, we do occasionally see people report this. But these are very few cases when you consider that over 30 billion doses of MDMA are taken every weekend worldwide. If anxiety and/or panic related disorders were a "real" side effect, we would be see a lot of reports. But the fact is, that we do not.

 

[xXTOKERXx]

Are you the new Brain Oblivion or something?

 

[Pornaddict since '92]

Does anyone have any clues as to why there is such a love affair with repeating false calims about MDMA? [/B]

becuz THEY think ppl can't handle the "truth"

keep in mind that there is no truth!!%) offcourse not.

and also that THEY who decided to do so have probably no idea what they r talkin about 8(

 

[Invalid Usename]

Are you the new Brain Oblivion or something?

Of course I am :D

 

[VelocideX]

And the problem that I have with that idea is that the neurotransmitters which produce anxiety (or invoke the "fight or flight response") are not effected by MDMA.

I disagree... MDMA releases both noradrenaline and dopamine in significant quantities. MDMA is a sympatheticomimetic; sympatheticomimetics (practically by definition) stimulate the fight-or-flight response...

Most stimulants do -- from caffeine through to methamphetamine.

 

[VelocideX]

And the problem that I have with that idea is that the neurotransmitters which produce anxiety (or invoke the "fight or flight response") are not effected by MDMA.

I disagree... MDMA releases both noradrenaline and dopamine in significant quantities. MDMA is a sympatheticomimetic; sympatheticomimetics (practically by definition) stimulate the fight-or-flight response...

Most stimulants do -- from caffeine through to methamphetamine.

 

[Invalid Usename]

I disagree... MDMA releases both noradrenaline and dopamine in significant quantities. MDMA is a sympatheticomimetic; sympatheticomimetics (practically by definition) stimulate the fight-or-flight response...

Most stimulants do -- from caffeine through to methamphetamine.

I'm under the impression that the amount of norepinephrine released by MDMA is not significant. Do you have anything I could look at which illustrates the degree of release?

In terms of panic attacks, the fight or flight is stimulated by both norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinephrine (adrenaline). Norepinephrine produces the stimulation to invoke the fight or "charge" side of the response, whereas epinephrine stimulates the flight or "avoidance" response. Everyone's report that I have read where they believe that they are experiencing panic attacks due to MDMA use indicate that their response is "flight" oriented. Which would indicate that they are experiencing a epinephrine induced response.

I haven't seen a study which suggests that epinephrine is released by MDMA. So I'm assuming that it's levels are raised only slightly (if at all).

If you know of any studies which show that MDMA increases epinephrine levels, I'd love to see them.


Another factor which leads me to believe that MDMA does not produce a marked increase is that it appears to be highly useful in PTSD treatment. If the anxiety and/or panic potential were elevated, then MDMA would [most likely] be counterproductive in treating PTSD (as it would tend to enhance the avoidance and blocking process that the patient is already doing naturally).


EDIT:
There may be something wrong with the database software, as it appears to have created a second record from your single post entry (same time up to the second). Perhaps Skywalker should keep an eye on this, in case it is more than just a fluke?

.

 

[Pornaddict since '92]

Of course I am :D

egotrippin is such fun

maybe u should eat a mushroom or two

I must say I m very impressed with the way ur post are so magnificently edited .
U seem very eloquent

ps: the smileys on this boars suck!!! somethin should be done bout it!!

 

[Invalid Usename]

egotrippin is such fun

maybe u should eat a mushroom or two

I must say I m very impressed with the way ur post are so magnificently edited .
U seem very eloquent

ps: the smileys on this boars suck!!! somethin should be done bout it!!

I think I'm missing something.

xXTOKERXx ashed me: "Are you the new Brain Oblivion or something?"

And I answered, "Of course I am."

There's no ego in that. My username was Brian Oblivion, xXTOKERXx misspelled the first name, that's all.

If I'm somehow ego tripping on that, could you please explain?

I must say I m very impressed with the way ur post are so magnificently edited .
U seem very eloquent

Thank you, that's very kind of you to say so.

I've needed to write a great deal professionally (mostly technical writing), so I've just gotten in the habit of formatting over the years. It sucks though for writting love letters. :D

 

[VelocideX]

Rothman RB, Baumann MH, Dersch CM, Romero DV, Rice KC, Carroll FI, Partilla JS. "Amphetamine-type central nervous system stimulants release norepinephrine more potently than they release dopamine and serotonin." Synapse. 2001 Jan;39(1):32-41.

A large body of evidence supports the hypothesis that mesolimbic dopamine (DA) mediates, in animal models, the reinforcing effects of central nervous system stimulants such as cocaine and amphetamine. The role DA plays in mediating amphetamine-type subjective effects of stimulants in humans remains to be established. Both amphetamine and cocaine increase norepinephrine (NE) via stimulation of release and inhibition of reuptake, respectively. If increases in NE mediate amphetamine-type subjective effects of stimulants in humans, then one would predict that stimulant medications that produce amphetamine-type subjective effects in humans should share the ability to increase NE. To test this hypothesis, we determined, using in vitro methods, the neurochemical mechanism of action of amphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), (+)-methamphetamine, ephedrine, phentermine, and aminorex. As expected, their rank order of potency for DA release was similar to their rank order of potency in published self-administration studies. Interestingly, the results demonstrated that the most potent effect of these stimulants is to release NE. Importantly, the oral dose of these stimulants, which produce amphetamine-type subjective effects in humans, correlated with the their potency in releasing NE, not DA, and did not decrease plasma prolactin, an effect mediated by DA release. These results suggest that NE may contribute to the amphetamine-type subjective effects of stimulants in humans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8545462

...MDMA caused a significant depletion of both 5-HT and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) in the frontal cortex and amygdala and a significant elevation of dopamine and noradrenaline in the hippocampus...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1979517

...It is concluded that MDMA's unique psychological effects are mediated through a subpopulation of serotonergic and noradrenergic neurons, presumably through effects on release mechanisms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2886126

...The two stereoisomers of amphetamine and the MDMA-related compounds were equipotent in inhibiting [3H]norepinephrine uptake into hypothalamic synaptosomes....

 

[Trance Addict Htx]

Everytime a coversation about E comes up there is always someone that says "Dont do that stuff man...it eats holes in your brain..."

 

[Invalid Usename]

I stand corrected, there appears to be ample evidence of NE release produced by MDMA. Thanks for the references.

Given that there are elevated levels of norepinephrine, what I find odd is that there isn't a tendency for aggressive behavior. But I can't remember ever seeing a report of someone who was rolling becoming aggressive or violent.

 

[Invalid Usename]

Everytime a coversation about E comes up there is always someone that says "Dont do that stuff man...it eats holes in your brain..."

I don't think anyone is saying that. At least, no one who's posted so far.

 

[BilZ0r]

Just cause, (+/-)MDMA seems to be a more potent releaser of noradrenaline that it is of dopamine, at least on a single cell level EC50=77nM, DA release 376nM, 5-HT release 56nM.

According to Rothman at least. Though if you were in an argumentitive mood, you could have a go at his model.

Meanwhile, people spread misinformation because they don't know any better. How many times do you hear the 'dopamine-mediate MDMA-toxicity' theory up in here? I mean they PUT that on dance-safe when it was allready looking dodgy.

 

[phinerone]

egotrippin is such fun

maybe u should eat a mushroom or two

I must say I m very impressed with the way ur post are so magnificently edited .
U seem very eloquent

ps: the smileys on this boars suck!!! somethin should be done bout it!!

lol

Another factor which leads me to believe that MDMA does not produce a marked increase is that it appears to be highly useful in PTSD treatment. If the anxiety and/or panic potential were elevated, then MDMA would [most likely] be counterproductive in treating PTSD (as it would tend to enhance the avoidance and blocking process that the patient is already doing naturally).


. [/B]

wouldnt they be using smaller doses? and most cases of paronoia and axiety caused from e is after the abuse of it.