MDMA as a treatment for Psycho/Sociopathy?

[Runera46]

I personally would rather see the likes of LSD or psilocybin used for treating these conditions. Much like PTSD and terminal anxiety I believe there may be some applications with forms of assisted therapy.

Keep an eye out on MAPS or other research sites in your area for any trials requiring subjects.

 

[MrTiHKAL]

I used to work for a guy that had alot of sociopathic tendencies, terrible temper, totally selfish, used people for his own purposes, basically didn't give a fuck about anyone but himself.

He was always iniviting himself along when I would go out to the pub and none of my mates could stand him and it was embarassing.
Anyway this one week I was going out to a techno all nighter and stupidly mentioned it to him. Next day he had bought tickets for him and his girlfriend and was like can't wait i'll see you there.

Now this guy was about 20 years older than me and really didn't have a clue about the clubbing/drugs scene and this was a proper techno mash up type night. Everyone in the place would be getting on it in a big way and it always turned into a beautiful jumping sweaty mess.

So I spot him as soon as I walk in black trousers, shiny silky white shirt unbuttoned to the chest and pointy black leather shoes, he's not excatly blending in if you know what I mean and I can see few people are looking at him thinking who brought their dad?

He standing at the bar and he's seen me walk in so I better go and say hello, he buys me a beer and asks if I can get him any speed, as it happens I know a guy so I go and get him a couple of grams of pretty crappy speed, which him and his gf pour into their drinks and I make my excuses and get back to my mates.

We had all got sorted with our pills earlier and had dropped the first one of the night before we left for the club and were coming up nicely grinning like idiots and just chatting shit and doing that dancing on the spot thing where you know the right tune is gonna have you running to the dancefloor any second.

Must have been about an hour later and we are in the throng, the place is jumping, smiles and hugs all round, havin it large as I believe we used to call it, I can see my boss is still standing at the bar, back to his girlfriend who looked totally pissed off as he was chatting a mile a minute to one of the bouncer's who I think he might have known.

I catch the gf''s eye and beckon her over, she joins us and starts getting into the vibe, she's only 5 years older than me so it wasn't really a culture shock for her to be in a bunch of loved up drug fiends.

A bit later I see him coming towards us with a face like thunder, he grabs his gf's arm and starts ripping into her for leaving him on his own at the bar and not telling him where she was going, he was worried about her or some bullshit. Leave it out mate, I say, "she's just enjoying herself join us and have a boogie" but he drags her back to the bar and I don't really want to get involved in a domestic so I just say to my friends come on lets move, so we move way over to the other side of the club and decide to avoid the twat for the rest of the night.

So it must have been about 3am and I see a friendly face bouncing towards me through the lasers and waving arms, it's an old mate of mine, hugs are exchanged and he asks me if i'm after any pills, "nah i'm sorted thanks mate". "You'll never guess who i've just seen", he says, "that guy you work with is in the bar, yeah, I sold him 5 pills"

Oh fuck, I better go and check he is alright, he knows fuck all about e's i hope he hasn't taken more than one. It didn't take long to find them, right at the back of the club, her dancing on the edge of the crowd, giving it some, obviously loving it. Him standing about 6 feet behind her back to the wall sort of bouncing up and down on his heels, clutching a water bottle to his chest with both hands, sweating and gurning heavily with basically a look of terror on his face.

"How's it going, you having a good night?" I say to the gf. She turn's and wraps her arms around me and kisses me slightly too long on the lips "Yeah amazing, we got some pills, this music is brilliant", "How's S getting on?" I say "he's over there, go and check on him for me"

"How you getting on mate?"
"Yeah alright, we got some pills off your mate"
"Oh cool, are you enjoying it then, how you feeling, have you just took the one?"
"Yes mate pretty good"
"Are you sure, you look a bit worried?"
"Can I talk to you, somewhere a bit quieter?"

So we go the the chill out room and he tells me that he had tried to have a dance but felt really self conscious, a girl that he decribed as a hippy had tried to hug him and had told him to just let himself go, he really couldn't handle this and has been standing where i found him ever since feeling paranoid.

This is where he starts to tell me that, he doesn't feel like himself, he thinks he is not a very nice person, nobody really trusts him, he treats people like shit and is always telling lies for no reason, he says he should have been a better father to his kids and should treat his girlfriend better.

Now I am thinking, this is great, he's having a breakthrough here. Everything he is saying is 100% true and obvious to everyone that knows him, but I have never heard him talk like this before, he normally has zero self awareness, this could be great for him. So I tell him don't get too down on yourself mate, we all have our faults and all we can do is try to be better people.
Next thing he jumps up "Nah mate, it's this fucking shit that ive taken that's making me feel like this. Go and get L for me I'm phoning a taxi.
I sort of tried to talk him into staying but his mind was made up so I went and got his gf which was a bit sad because she really didn't want to leave, then went back to my mates and got back into it for the rest of a brilliant night.

Monday at work I asked him what happened after he left and he said he went home drunk half a bottle of vodka and crashed out, he would never be touching that shit again and had flushed the rest of the pills because he didn't want his girlfriend taking them again either.

Nowadays he likes to bosh about an eighth of shitty coke every weekend, which is a better drug for his personality type to feel good about themselves and thankfully I don't work with him or see much of him anymore.

So I guess that the point of this story if there is one is that I think yes mdma does have potential for helping sociopaths to see how there behaviour affects other people, but a club setting is probably not ideal and I guess that they really want to have to change, personally I think that deep down he has always known that he is a cunt but just lies to himself about it.

 

[Sturnam]

Interesting idea, but I doubt it would work for a few reasons.

First of all, psychopathy is usually associated with measurable brain structure differences, and something tells me that it's usually caused by major biological deficits (i.e. two structures never forming any connections together). And I think that it's highly unlikely that one (or a few) drug treatments could change this lack of connectivity.

Second, even if it did provide empathetic feelings, it's akin to being blind your whole life, and then seeing. You would have no idea what to make of the feelings, and you'd be totally confused as to what they were even. We seem to have this notion that even if you've been blind your whole life (30+ years) that if you had sight restored, you'd instantly know how to "see," even though that's most definitely not true.

 

[pofacedhoe]

it wouldn't give them empathy, i have a friend who was a little bit sociopathic (no empathy, unbelievable drug intake, innability to control his temper breaking a female housemates nose for no reason) anyway he got addicted to mdma but i never saw him have any empathy from it. he was always laughing his head off from it but NEVER seemed loved up one little bit.

 

[its.euphoric]

I used to work for a guy that had alot of sociopathic tendencies, terrible temper, totally selfish, used people for his own purposes, basically didn't give a fuck about anyone but himself.

He was always iniviting himself along when I would go out to the pub and none of my mates could stand him and it was embarassing.
Anyway this one week I was going out to a techno all nighter and stupidly mentioned it to him. Next day he had bought tickets for him and his girlfriend and was like can't wait i'll see you there.

Now this guy was about 20 years older than me and really didn't have a clue about the clubbing/drugs scene and this was a proper techno mash up type night. Everyone in the place would be getting on it in a big way and it always turned into a beautiful jumping sweaty mess.

So I spot him as soon as I walk in black trousers, shiny silky white shirt unbuttoned to the chest and pointy black leather shoes, he's not excatly blending in if you know what I mean and I can see few people are looking at him thinking who brought their dad?

He standing at the bar and he's seen me walk in so I better go and say hello, he buys me a beer and asks if I can get him any speed, as it happens I know a guy so I go and get him a couple of grams of pretty crappy speed, which him and his gf pour into their drinks and I make my excuses and get back to my mates.

We had all got sorted with our pills earlier and had dropped the first one of the night before we left for the club and were coming up nicely grinning like idiots and just chatting shit and doing that dancing on the spot thing where you know the right tune is gonna have you running to the dancefloor any second.

Must have been about an hour later and we are in the throng, the place is jumping, smiles and hugs all round, havin it large as I believe we used to call it, I can see my boss is still standing at the bar, back to his girlfriend who looked totally pissed off as he was chatting a mile a minute to one of the bouncer's who I think he might have known.

I catch the gf''s eye and beckon her over, she joins us and starts getting into the vibe, she's only 5 years older than me so it wasn't really a culture shock for her to be in a bunch of loved up drug fiends.

A bit later I see him coming towards us with a face like thunder, he grabs his gf's arm and starts ripping into her for leaving him on his own at the bar and not telling him where she was going, he was worried about her or some bullshit. Leave it out mate, I say, "she's just enjoying herself join us and have a boogie" but he drags her back to the bar and I don't really want to get involved in a domestic so I just say to my friends come on lets move, so we move way over to the other side of the club and decide to avoid the twat for the rest of the night.

So it must have been about 3am and I see a friendly face bouncing towards me through the lasers and waving arms, it's an old mate of mine, hugs are exchanged and he asks me if i'm after any pills, "nah i'm sorted thanks mate". "You'll never guess who i've just seen", he says, "that guy you work with is in the bar, yeah, I sold him 5 pills"

Oh fuck, I better go and check he is alright, he knows fuck all about e's i hope he hasn't taken more than one. It didn't take long to find them, right at the back of the club, her dancing on the edge of the crowd, giving it some, obviously loving it. Him standing about 6 feet behind her back to the wall sort of bouncing up and down on his heels, clutching a water bottle to his chest with both hands, sweating and gurning heavily with basically a look of terror on his face.

"How's it going, you having a good night?" I say to the gf. She turn's and wraps her arms around me and kisses me slightly too long on the lips "Yeah amazing, we got some pills, this music is brilliant", "How's S getting on?" I say "he's over there, go and check on him for me"

"How you getting on mate?"
"Yeah alright, we got some pills off your mate"
"Oh cool, are you enjoying it then, how you feeling, have you just took the one?"
"Yes mate pretty good"
"Are you sure, you look a bit worried?"
"Can I talk to you, somewhere a bit quieter?"

So we go the the chill out room and he tells me that he had tried to have a dance but felt really self conscious, a girl that he decribed as a hippy had tried to hug him and had told him to just let himself go, he really couldn't handle this and has been standing where i found him ever since feeling paranoid.

This is where he starts to tell me that, he doesn't feel like himself, he thinks he is not a very nice person, nobody really trusts him, he treats people like shit and is always telling lies for no reason, he says he should have been a better father to his kids and should treat his girlfriend better.

Now I am thinking, this is great, he's having a breakthrough here. Everything he is saying is 100% true and obvious to everyone that knows him, but I have never heard him talk like this before, he normally has zero self awareness, this could be great for him. So I tell him don't get too down on yourself mate, we all have our faults and all we can do is try to be better people.
Next thing he jumps up "Nah mate, it's this fucking shit that ive taken that's making me feel like this. Go and get L for me I'm phoning a taxi.
I sort of tried to talk him into staying but his mind was made up so I went and got his gf which was a bit sad because she really didn't want to leave, then went back to my mates and got back into it for the rest of a brilliant night.

Monday at work I asked him what happened after he left and he said he went home drunk half a bottle of vodka and crashed out, he would never be touching that shit again and had flushed the rest of the pills because he didn't want his girlfriend taking them again either.

Nowadays he likes to bosh about an eighth of shitty coke every weekend, which is a better drug for his personality type to feel good about themselves and thankfully I don't work with him or see much of him anymore.

So I guess that the point of this story if there is one is that I think yes mdma does have potential for helping sociopaths to see how there behaviour affects other people, but a club setting is probably not ideal and I guess that they really want to have to change, personally I think that deep down he has always known that he is a cunt but just lies to himself about it.

Wow that was super interesting!!
Great post thanks!
I could see how a sociopath could totally hate the feeling... cuz they're suddenly realizing how all their actions are hurting others.

 

[nuke]

I've known plenty of sociopaths who use MDMA -- I doubt it has much benefit, to be honest. Either they don't like it and don't care for it, or it doesn't cause any greater sense of empathy in them.

The problem isn't brain chemistry per say, in my opinion, it's more that we've been selecting for and condoning sociopathy for so long that it's become too pervasive to properly deal with. It's way too okay in most social circles to be sociopathic and narcissistic as long as you're making lots of money. When we discourage people like this and value things that are more beneficial to society as a whole, thing will get better.

 

[TypicalSociopath]

though i guess the main issue is that for someone to administer a drug as a therapy they have to want to do so in the first place and a sociopath has no interest to be altered in such a way

I wouldn't let anyone test it out on me, but I'd certainly give it a shot on my own for the hell of it.

I as well have always pondered what would happen in a situation like this (but with psychedelics rather than MDMA)? That is, take a sociopathic person and administer a large (mindfuck) dose of a psychedelic (e.g. 750-900 mcg LSD) and expose them to intensely negative stimuli likely to induce a bad trip--'forcing' them to deal with (or at least face) some of their psychical demons. Akin to the mental 'reprogramming' of a Clockwork Orange, but lacking the Skinner-style behavioral cue conditioning.

This is akin to a form of psychological torture and I suspect I'd just come out more hardened and unfeeling. I'm not some kind of tortured soul who has to make peace with himself to get better. Truthfully, I have no regrets and don't want to change.

chances are it just gives them another way of manipulating people if they get a better understanding of empathy.

I figured taking MDMA to make me temporarily experience some type of empathy might be useful.

I'm a Sociopath although i might not fit in i have one small thread of humanity left and am trying to hold onto it as i know what i am capable of doing should i lose that thread

You just sound emotionally disturbed. If you were actually a sociopath you would embrace your nature (i.e. there would be no thread).

I believe sociopathy is largely over reported, with people labeling anyone who displays antisocial behavior as a sociopath while any number of reasons could cause said behavior. Those sociopaths people in this thread claim to have met are most likely just ordinary shitty people. You can be a shitty and manipulative person without being a sociopath. You'd likely be unaware if you had met an actual sociopath. People find me very charming and polite. They basically beg for just a moment of my time.

 

[Moredopamine]

I highly doubt a single dose of any drug could possibly change the hard-wiring of a sociopath's brain to make them normal.

I see MDMA as a drug that is useful in helping people "find themselves again" -- the war vet with PTSD, the bereaved 40 year old widow, or just the plain old guy who got too fucked up on LSD and is a constant nervous wreck. But with sociopaths, there's nothing to rediscover that they have lost, because they never lost anything (i.e., the empathy) to begin with.

It's still an interesting enough proposition to warrant study

 

[TypicalSociopath]

I highly doubt a single dose of any drug could possibly change the hard-wiring of a sociopath's brain to make them normal.

I see MDMA as a drug that is useful in helping people "find themselves again" -- the war vet with PTSD, the bereaved 40 year old widow, or just the plain old guy who got too fucked up on LSD and is a constant nervous wreck. But with sociopaths, there's nothing to rediscover that they have lost, because they never lost anything (i.e., the empathy) to begin with.

Still if it's a discovery drug, then what is found will be different, but there should still be something.

It's still an interesting enough proposition to warrant study

Yeah, I'll give it a try when I get the chance and report back with my findings.

 

[tweex]

Depends on the reason for the empathy deficit.

If they don't produce enough oxytocin, it may help. If they have malformed oxytocin receptors, it won't.

I'm a near-psychopath in the former class, and I take oxytocin nasal spray to function better socially and come off as less narcissistic.

So the answer is maybe.

 

[Hammilton]

tell me how your determined that you have malformed oxytocin receptors? have you had that gene sequenced? What exactly is your mutation?

'nuff said.

 

[tweex]

tell me how your determined that you have malformed oxytocin receptors? have you had that gene sequenced? What exactly is your mutation?

'nuff said.

Being a total non-responder to oxytocin nasal spray is the easiest way to find out.

The second easiest way is unfortunately genetic sequencing: http://www.livescience.com/17018-empathy-genetics-behavior.html

I'm definitely a responder though, I went from somewhat below average on identifying emotions in a 24 photo series to scoring nearly perfect on oxytocin.

There is most likely a split among people with low empathy (autism/narcissism/psychopathy) between low oxytocin levels and malformed receptors, with some cases having to do with neither (Think Hare's recently added item 21 on the PCL-R)

 

[Hammilton]

Unless you've had the gene sequenced, and levels taken, you have nothing. Oxytocin is not proven to be any sort of cure for psychopathy. You could test a drug on yourself and determine that it was an opioid with good precision if you administered naloxone and effects went away immediately. It's not as if the key to psychopathy is a simple one-gene mutation.

Actually, I don't think there is any evidence that the gene coding for oxytocin receptors is linked to psychopathy. As far as I'm aware, there is only one gene linked to psychopathy, and it was the serotonin transporter, some variant of which has been associated with psychopathy, but only if you were also poor, I think.

Psychopathy seems likely genetic but I feel pretty certain that the cause will be far more complicated than a single mutation in the way a gene is expressed or a neurotransmitter is produced.

Also, how was this test administered?

 

[crzydiamond]

This is an interesting concept...and some responses kind of answer something I could never figure out

I took E on two occasions with someone who has been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder (sociopath). Both times I was high off it...the usual feelings. He on the other hand both times (different stuff, taken months apart from different sources) claimed the pills were garbage n he got ripped off !?! I didn't get it at all. But now, reading this thread, I understand what may very well have been the reason: empathetic drug not having effect on his brain. Well at least now I understand how I could be rolling off the same stuff he claimed "didn't work"

 

[pofacedhoe]

This is an interesting concept...and some responses kind of answer something I could never figure out

I took E on two occasions with someone who has been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder (sociopath). Both times I was high off it...the usual feelings. He on the other hand both times (different stuff, taken months apart from different sources) claimed the pills were garbage n he got ripped off !?! I didn't get it at all. But now, reading this thread, I understand what may very well have been the reason: empathetic drug not having effect on his brain. Well at least now I understand how I could be rolling off the same stuff he claimed "didn't work"

he might have been lying for the sake of it? maybe cos he wanted more drugs/ a reason to argue with the dealer.

mdma is lots of monoamine release. that will cause euphoria unless it is blocked. i.e. ssri's

 

[Corazon]

Much of the generally accepted negative connotations and supposed rareness of sociopathy seems contrived to me. It's all about looking at the system within the right factors of dynamics. And it also just seems like a misused word and theory in general.

That isn't to say that MDMA or other drugs can't be of benefit for some cases.

 

[pofacedhoe]

my friend who has a sociopathic grandmother said that sociopaths and adhd are just different points on a scale.

that both are understimulated by the world and prone to boredom but one is just a much more extreme example

 

[TypicalSociopath]

Psychopathy seems likely genetic

My father and his mother (now dead) are like me.

he might have been lying for the sake of it?

I sometimes lie just for the hell of it. I even lie sometimes when I might be better off telling the truth.

it also just seems like a misused word and theory in general.

Yeah all of them (psychopath, sociopath, narcissist, antisocial personality disorder) have different and conflicting definitions depending on the source. It's all completely subjective and higly dependent upon the honesty of the subject. However, the difference between those and autism/aspergers is clear cut.

my friend who has a sociopathic grandmother said that sociopaths and adhd are just different points on a scale.

that both are understimulated by the world and prone to boredom but one is just a much more extreme example

I'd say that my primary motivation in life is escaping boredom.

 

[RedRum OG]

Anything that is first widely acknowledged as a nasty street drug will never be taken seriously as a medical tool

Some psychedelics and MDMA could work wonders for the world as whole, but the masses and (more importantly) their masters continue to dismiss them, and likely will for a long, long time

 

[tweex]

Unless you've had the gene sequenced, and levels taken, you have nothing. Oxytocin is not proven to be any sort of cure for psychopathy. You could test a drug on yourself and determine that it was an opioid with good precision if you administered naloxone and effects went away immediately. It's not as if the key to psychopathy is a simple one-gene mutation.

Actually, I don't think there is any evidence that the gene coding for oxytocin receptors is linked to psychopathy. As far as I'm aware, there is only one gene linked to psychopathy, and it was the serotonin transporter, some variant of which has been associated with psychopathy, but only if you were also poor, I think.

Psychopathy seems likely genetic but I feel pretty certain that the cause will be far more complicated than a single mutation in the way a gene is expressed or a neurotransmitter is produced.

Also, how was this test administered?

But again, I don't actually meet the definition of a psychopath by DSM standards. I just have low affective empathy naturally. In fact I was assessed by a psychologist when I had stimulant psychosis, and found to have nothing rising to clinical levels, although definitely elevated narcissism.

And I totally agree there is more to psychopathy than oxytocin, in fact I found one study showing violent psychopaths had high levels of it! But as with many diseases, I suspect psychopathy has several different causes, pathologies and levels of presentation. Perhaps a valid comparison to carcinoma? I would not be surprised in the coming decades if we end up seeing there are in fact many different "types" of psychopathy with varying levels of impulse control problems, violence and cunning.

And this is the test I was using, it is actually 20 pictures and not 24. I ruled out training because my score drops to near baseline off oxytocin: http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/ei_quiz/

Regardless, when I'm on oxytocin my friends describe me as "less of a dick".