MAPS MDMA as a replacement for SSRIs for treating depression

I'm lucky that I don't get the Tuesday blues, but on the flip side, I haven't been able to find real MDMA in years, which is pathetic.
 
Yeah, MDMA has ACUTE antidepressant effects.
But in the long run it's gonna deplete serotonin reserves and therefore make depressions even worse.
I think true psychedelics (e.g. psilocybin, dmt) would be more promising.
 
The serotonin theory of depression has mostly gone by the wayside in scientific circles, granted direct to consumer ads still may tout this, but that's only because people like simple explanations. I think its safe to say that all psychiatric issues are staggeringly complex.

Regarding the so called Tuesday blues phenomenon, it does seem to be a real effect in some users & definitely more pronounced in some. However at least one study has found that it is the combination of mdma & a significant disruption in sleep cycle that seem to cause the delayed low mood. Which definitely jives with most recreational users patterns. Work a 9-5 all week then stay up til the wee hrs on Friday or Saturday & then sleep really late. The precise mechanisms still remain a mystery though, AFAIK anyway. I'll edit this post with a link to that study later. Also the lack of the Tuesday blues effect in the ongoing clinical trials with mdma support the idea that is not mdma alone causing this problem. Definitely something that requires further study though.
 
I think the discovery that has to be made is whether or not MDMA can do things therapeutically that nothing else would be able to accomplish, and if you can accomplish those things before you get to neurotoxic dosages. Another thing that would be helpful is finding out if MDMA's acute antidepressant effects do indeed cause Post MDMA Depression or if MDMA can indeed help a person overcome depression for the rest of their life if they're lucky.

Last time I took MDMA I actually had all these thoughts and I decided there should probably be some way to measure a drug's ability to cause therapeutic breakthroughs/benefits before it causes major/long lasting changes in the way your brain works. I wanted to invent a word for it, but then I had to question whether or not the brain changes are the direct cause of the therapy, in the sense that they are directly correlated.

I also thought about how MDMA increases the framerate of your vision and actually makes you recognize facial reactions faster and more precisely, while at the same time lowering social barriers and doing plenty of other wondrous things. It's the ultimate conversation starter %)

One other thing I kind of freaked out about was peripheral neuropathy because I know one of my personal heroes Sasha Shulgin has it. Obviously it could just be something that would have naturally occurred with old age but I couldn't help but have my doubts that lifelong psychedelic use might have played a part. I read anecdotal reports of people having nerve damage after heavy Mephedrone or Methylone use, so maybe some research should be done on this?

also, Kanna!! Sceletium Tortuosum is incredibly underresearched for being one of the few natural SSRIs/antidepressants

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sceletium_tortuosum#Pharmacology

There are no wikipedia pages for a few of the active components of it, which I think is total BS how has no scientist ever been interested in this yet???
 
Clearly frequent administration of MDMA is going to be problematic, however the dosage schedule in the PTSD trials seems to be sufficiently conservative to avoid any measurable poor outcomes. As an adjunct to psychotherapy I don't think I'm off base in saying that it would likely be helpful for a number of indications, given it's ability to facilitate the therapeutic alliance. Given the demands modern society places on our time, an occasional drug assisted session could both speed the efficacy of therapy and as such cause more people to stick with it, thus further improving outcomes.

As for pure pharmacological treatment of depression with MDMA, I'm less confident that would be a viable model.
 
I associate memory loss problems from being on SSRI for a few months or so
 
Without even reading the question at hand just replying to your title., Duh we all know SSRIs are pointless in the world of psychology anyone with a degree in neuroscience will tell you that. MDMA is for a very VERY specific patient, Should doctors just hand out 5-htp rather then write a script for an SSRI, YES DUH! But this doesnt mean anything in the hard up world of pharma because ssris have little to no respect in the first place. Im gonna read the question now.

Darksidesam, I recommend Ginko Biloba for the memory loss, why were you on SSRIs in the first place?

OK I read the question, Don't make blatant statements about MDMA as a medicine, those who practice illegally right now do it correctly shit with that much risk you better be committed to the molecular structure of mixed carbons hydrogens nitrogens and Oxygen's.

It is special it is magical and it is beneficial to a very small part of the population with terrible brain disease not your common dickhead who walks out with an SSRI script
 
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This isn't practical or productive. MDMA would never be used as a replacement for SSRI's. In fact, it shouldn't be used in place of SSRI. SSRI's are first line treatments for a reason.
 
MDMA healed my three year moderate chronic PTSD - which was caused by a near death incident. So from my own experience MDMA is very useful, if not overdoing it.

Balance is the key - I think.
 
also, Kanna!! Sceletium Tortuosum is incredibly underresearched for being one of the few natural SSRIs/antidepressants
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It wouldn't be considered for treatment in depression because its duration is far too short... People would have to be redosing on kanna all day long. Not exactly convenient.

I'd also disagree with replacing MDMA for SSRIs as first line treatment vs depression. Giving people a good time for a few hours isn't going to fix their depression. It may give them valuable insights and inspiration to perhaps make some changes in their life that could be causing their depression, but it won't fix anything pure on neurochemistry.

A more interesting line of research is the use of ketamine and other dissociatives like MXE that have been shown to have long lasting anti-depressant effect after a single dose.
 
what bout MDAI?
not abuse or partying.
to deal with depression(20 years of it).

any experience ,anyone?
 
For the majority of cases for which they're prescribed, SSRIs have little to no efficacy. For people with serious MDD there is modest benefit vs placebo.
 
Lazaraus45 said:
Pharmaceutical lobbying? :p

But seriously don't a lot of independent trials of SSRI's find them to be of very little efficacy?
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No I think SSRI's are useless fucking drugs. But all people usually need is a placebo. MDMA, on the other hand, is a highly addictive drug with side-effects that aren't even in the same ball park as SSRI's. That's why I think SSRI's (or rather 'active' placebo pills) are nessecary.
 
I'll second the SSRI's being active placebos notion. I've been there and my experience parallels that of the literature. I think the notion that MDMA is highly addictive is quite debatable though.

To use MDMA (even super low dose) as a daily basis style anti-depressant is going to be ineffective and likely damaging.

On the other hand, MDMA therapy for anxiety/depression holds great promise. The key there is sporadic use, in a therapeutic setting, with effective but not whopping recreational doses.

About the week after: Yes there is some low 5-HT based anxiety, but it is transient and the insights gained via the experience prevail to help with long term anxiety/depression. Temporary SSRI's can also help with that low 5-HT based anxiety following MDMA.
 
EarthBounded said:
Without even reading the question at hand just replying to your title., Duh we all know SSRIs are pointless in the world of psychology anyone with a degree in neuroscience will tell you that. MDMA is for a very VERY specific patient, Should doctors just hand out 5-htp rather then write a script for an SSRI, YES DUH! But this doesnt mean anything in the hard up world of pharma because ssris have little to no respect in the first place. Im gonna read the question now.

Darksidesam, I recommend Ginko Biloba for the memory loss, why were you on SSRIs in the first place?

OK I read the question, Don't make blatant statements about MDMA as a medicine, those who practice illegally right now do it correctly shit with that much risk you better be committed to the molecular structure of mixed carbons hydrogens nitrogens and Oxygen's.

It is special it is magical and it is beneficial to a very small part of the population with terrible brain disease not your common dickhead who walks out with an SSRI script
Click to expand...

Dude....come on.
You need your serotonin!
Enjoy sex...?
Shit, I do, it controls that hunger, tempature-thats why the comedowns from (idk if you can say the type of pill so I won't) but I pretty popular pill in my area and it's nuerotoxic , bullshit ADHD and get Dexedrine or Dextrostat if you must (IF YOU DO ROLL, 5 Htp after but still, i did that and still noticed slightly anxious and deppressing affects. Shrooms...Acid, great after affects IMO) or wellbutrin [:
 
I don't agree that MDMA is better than legit meds
mostly because depression runs in my family and drug abuse runs in my family, and I've been depressed before and during those times i took MDMA several times on different occassions
Maybe MDMA has benefits in psychotherapy but not in brain chemistry like SSRI's do.
 
I have had major depressive disorder all my life and I can tell you from person experience that MDMA a far superior medication for treating severe depression. I've put much thought into this topic and believe that it should be used in larger doses in certain therapies and in extremely small twice daily doses for the treatment of major depression. I have been on at least a dozen different SSRI's and none did anything except prozac(that I only take because it makes me drowsy and I hope helps with my insomnia). Every SSRI has had side effects that ranged from unpleasant to deadly. I don't have any MDMA but if I did I would replace the prozac in a heartbeat.
 
MDMA is a possibly neurotoxic chemical that can cause all of the same side-effects as meth. It's an amphetamine - that's what amphetamines do.

Also, long-term MDMA usage would be woefully unsustainable due to the fact that 5HT would instantly be unregulated by the body. In that sense - I believe MDMA would actually cause depression if used more than once. MDMA should never be used as an antidepressant. It would be paradoxically stupid to use it for such an indication. Especially in the long-term.

MDA (Methylenedioxyamphetamine) would be a way better candidate entirely due to the reason that it would eliminate (or rather decrease the likelihood) of neurotoxicity. However, it would still cause depression in the long-term just like MDMA.
 
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