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MDMA and MS?

I will say that, as someone who actually has autoimmune disease, it didn't come with any symptoms of crippling anxiety when it was in the early stages. I knew that there was something very wrong with me, but I didn't really have an unusually strong anxiety or panic attacks or anything of that nature. So you can't blame medical staff when your physical symptoms are accompanied by strong anxiety for suspecting some kind of somatoform disorder.
 
Burnt Offerings, what auto immune disorder do you have? Do you think past drug use triggered it?

I do have a history of anxiety problems, mainly Pure O OCD and Intrusive Thoughts, of which I have had an incident this year. I wasn't aware of 'Somatoform Disorders', although I did know anxiety can manifest physically.

When mine has, it's been in chronic lack of appetite, headaches, minor tremor and tension, and occasional vomiting.

This time round I've had constant neurological problems including the electric zaps down your spine when you bend your neck, symptoms which have got worse when I'm warmer (both indicative of MS), muscle weakness and spasming, impotence and lack of sexual drive, insomnia, fatigue, mood dysfunction and extremes, violent electrical zaps which can wake me up from sleep, diarrhoea and bowel and bladder problems, itching, and optic neuritis which I've had for about four years. All these have happened independent of my mood and have got progressively worse and more commonplace as the months have gone on. And I recognised this from the start having lived in my own body for 27 years.

My anxiety and so forth only manifested in response to the idea of being seriously ill, my symptoms developing and getting worse and new ones springing up. My more suicidal depressive tendencies were more probably a symptom of going on and coming off antidepressants at the behest of my doctor who thought I had anxiety <_<

I appreciate they'll see kids who've coked or smoked themselves into a psychotic state before and rush in thinking they're insane or damaged, but I waited a week and a half after this incident, and was completely calm. And went back, twice. I appreciate that our NHS is overcrowded and underfunded but taking my complaints a touch more seriously couldn't hurt.
 
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type 1 diabetic (as a result of pancreatic auto-immune disease) No, I absolutely do not think that my former use contributed to my disease. For one, no one really knows much about why autoimmune disorders develop, unfortunately, or even how to effectively counter them. The best the medical establishment can do in most cases is give immunosuppressant's, which is definitely a double edged sword. And secondly, I had never really done anything substance-wise before diagnosis except for regular cannabis use and (light) drinking.

There was a time period in which I was pretty sure that I had MS or something neurologically wrong with me. I underwent the usual tests they give as a diagnostic framework: vitamin level check, an EMG and an MRI. Everything came back OK except the MRI which was "inconclusive", with the radiologists noting a really small spot on my brain and noting that "demyelinating disease is also a possibility". I freaked out upon reading that. But I got a second opinion from pretty renowned radiologists on the east coast, in New York where the MRI was actually originally invented, and they said there wasn't anything particularly abnormal about my scans. So who knows.

That was a few years ago and I don't really worry about it any more, as my chronic anxiety subsided and the accompanying symptoms lessoned tremendously. But I had all the symptoms: neuropathy, "numbness", blurred/double vision, even what I considered to be an unsteady gait. You name it. And it would make sense to me because sometimes AI diseases follow other AI diseases. But I don't think I have MS...MS doesn't "come and go", neither does any neurological cause, and I'd fucking know it if I had relapse-remission MS, that's for sure.
 
I trust you to know more about this than me, but at the same time, I have heard (rare) anecdotal reports of people's MS symptoms massively diminishing for periods of time, or being severely moderated with diet and lifestyle adjustments. There's also apparently subtypes and categories of it which are less severe. I assume you know all this though, and so have little to worry about.

What are the complications of immuno-suppressant drugs or steroid treatments or other auto-immune managing treatments?
 
suedonym said:
I trust you to know more about this than me, but at the same time, I have heard (rare) anecdotal reports of people's MS symptoms massively diminishing for periods of time, or being severely moderated with diet and lifestyle adjustments. There's also apparently subtypes and categories of it which are less severe. I assume you know all this though, and so have little to worry about.
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Well yeah, treatment for many AI disorders including MS requires a holistic approach.

There's only two kinds of MS, though: relapse-remission (symptoms come and go, but "flare ups" get worse as the disease progresses) and progressive (symptoms only continue to get worse)

What are the complications of immuno-suppressant drugs or steroid treatments or other auto-immune managing treatments?
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If you're immune system is suppressed it leaves you vulnerable to infections that a healthy person could easily fight off
 
I hope I have the former rather than the latter, if I have it. I've read relapse-remitting generally becomes primary or secondary progressive with time, but I'd rather be in a wheelchair in my 50's rather than my 30's if I have to be.

Is there any reasoning behind why taking MDMA once could have kickstarted all this? Like I say I had the optic neuritis esque unexplained symptoms before for four years (and tried to get brain scans for it and the fairly-frequent headaches I'd get from it before, with no luck as the opticians found 'nothing wrong') with very infrequent head pressure, tinnitus and stabbing pains, and a general ill mood but it's only after taking MDMA that all these other physical symptoms kicked in?

And yeah, that is a concern. Are there suitable drugs to simply manage the problems it causes without touching the root cause? Like presumably viagra for my frequent impotence, painkillers for bodily aches, electrolytes or something for my stomach problems?
 
As you can imagine having eye problems enduring for four years which caused me to have a nervous breakdown thinking I was going blind, and laughingly being dismissed as 'anxiety' and not taken seriously, leads me to have quite a bit of contempt for medical professionals who dismiss everything as that.
 
An hour and a half to go till I see my GP. Wish me luck guys, I hope they take me seriously this time.
 
Severely: No, prior to taking MDMA once, I'd only smoked weed 2-3 times. I've been on courses of anti-depressants, and I drink booze and smoke cigarettes socially once or twice a month or so if I'm lucky and my scattered friends all congregate together. That's it. I'm absurdly clean living for a forum dedicated to studying and experimenting with various drugs.

Anyway, Doctor told me she'd recommend me for a neurologist. I'm to take a list of my myriad symptoms with me. I'll get my appointment through the post soon. Then they will see if I can get an MRI. Am a bit worried as the doctor I saw, younger and a bit less worldly wise actually put that I'd taken MDMA on my medical record which might fuck me over if I ever need to claim medical benefits or health insurance but that's the future right now, I don't care, I'm just glad we can get the ball rolling.
 
severely etarded said:
I was thinking methamphetamine use could be contributing to the anxiety.. as it did with me
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I think I might have indeed ingested some meth in bunk ecstasy and the bunk E is where a lot of my problems started, especially anxiety/mild schizophrenia type stuff. Turns out there were bath salts in some of the E so that doesn't help I'm sure lol
 
Immunosuppressants have their ups and downs, specifically for MS some of the drugs are fairly harsh and have side effects. Prednisone isn't horrible short term but the MS drugs are different, I used to know more about it but I've forgotten. MS drugs attempt to shutdown the microglia. I know there are TNF-alpha inhibitors as well that are fairly tolerable, I forget whether they cross the blood brain barrier very well though.

In many cases we are in the dark when it comes to the cause of autoimmune disease but at least we do know that there is an enormous connection between stress and AI disease, and there are problems with the way the immune system is regulated in many cases. There have been many studies highlighting the importance of the serotonin system in regulating the immune system.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23336044/ -"A dialogue between the immune system and the brain, spoken in the language of serotonin"

The reason why MDMA might have caused a worsening of MS related diseases is because it appears to cause an activation of microglia, the cells that attack the myelin. Though we can't be sure about what mdma does long term to the microglia, what we do know about many of these immune system cells is that once they are activated they stay in their activated state for a long time. I posted about this a page or so back in this thread, here is that post:

"Also, I knew of this all along I didn't want to post this but I thought at this point I might as well... Sorry, I was trying not to freak you out or anything, but at this point I figure you have the right to know.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2962814/

What this paper basically says is that a lot of your immune system is suppressed after MDMA but the cells that are problematic in diseases like MS can be activated, these are the microglia. There are other sorts of inflammation that are kicked up as well, my opinion is that this would lead to problems with increased nerve inflammation from nerve irritation (especially regarding the cranial nerves). What I am confused on and will hopefully get back to you some day about is what to do about this aside from MS treatment style immunosuppressants. The paper I linked involves interleukin 10 which is complicated but very important regarding the immune system. Some of these interleukins actually help contain inflammation to a degree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interleukin_10

"Lower levels of IL-10 have been observed in individuals diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis when compared to healthy individuals.[18] Due to a decrease in IL-10 levels, TNFα levels are not regulated effectively as IL-10 regulates the TNF-α-converting enzyme.[19] As a result, TNFα levels rise and result in inflammation.[20] TNFα itself induces demyelination of the oliodendroglial via TNF receptor 1, while chronic inflammation has been linked to demyelination of neurons.

IL-10 is linked to the myokines, as exercise provokes an increase in circulating levels of IL-1ra, IL-10, and sTNF-R, suggesting that physical exercise fosters an environment of anti-inflammatory cytokines."

I hope you can get as much aerobic exercise as possible.
I don't believe you have specifically MS but I do believe you have some form of nerve inflammation, you could have a mechanical cause of part of your nerve irritation (especially concerning the head and hands) and I would urge you to do your best to sort this out with physical therapy and quality chiropractic care. Please feel free to PM me anytime, and keep us updated. Farewell."

I think I must emphasize that exercise is great for auto immune disease and helping your immune system regulate it's response. Being conditioned also helps with stress and stress is a big cause of auto immune disease. Serotonin also regulates the immune system and cardio builds new serotonin brain cells in a very important part of the brain.

Best of luck with your new doctor, I hope you get a neck/brain MRI. The good news is that MS that presents with optic neuritis (some fraction of MS usually does present with optic neuritis) tends to be one of the better varieties of MS to be afflicted with. Though there are many causes of optic neuritis and it is still very possible with not necessarily MS but nerve inflammation, especially related to lack of bloodflow. Do some cardio, get that blood moving! The harder it is the more you will benefit in the long run. Exercise helps curb the inflammation from MS even, and will help you keep your function a bit longer and have more quality of life if you do end up having MS. Not that you need the stress of thinking you have MS ;)
 
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Cheers man. Yeah, I will be able to get an MRI if the neurologist thinks it valid after a consultation. I probably won't see it this side of Christmas but at least I have something to work towards. I will try to stay on with the exercise.

I didn't say earlier, but I was given Amitriptyline by the doctor, only 10mg, apparently it helps with sleep disorders and nerve pain and there are a lot of good reports for it online. I am worried about taking another serotonin-based drugs after coming off Mirtazipine seemed to make my symptoms worse but that relief would be nice.
 
suedonym said:
That's a lot of interesting information, thank you, I'll try and look into it.

I was thinking as a secondary option I could have/had some sort of vasoconstriction. After I took the MDMA, for like a week after my skin felt very tight, I felt absurdly muscled and defined compared to my usual fairly doughy and dumpy self. Could my body have been denied certain essential processes during that time then, which has the knock on effect now?
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Sorry if you mentioned this already, but you didn't describe the MDMA experince at all. You say it tested positive for MDMA but what was your reaction to the roll? Was every great until the next day or did these symptoms come on during the high?
 
I really hope you give the exercise a decent go, even if you're sore or more worn down the days after exercising (which says a lot).

You could certainly try the amitriptyline but there are standard anti depressant withdrawals associated with it. It is classically used for treating nerve pain. Its actions as a normal SNRI can cause insomnia and personally gave me some insomnia (though insomnia is my main problem anyways so maybe I'm sensitive) but some of its other effects sedate some people. It's worth a try I think, but honestly at this point you should have some things on hand such as extended release ambien or lunesta and Trazadone just in case you really can't sleep and lose it.

Sorry you asked earlier about treating symptoms, the go to for neuropathy is Gabapentin or Lyrica. These are also sometimes used off label for insomnia, I can vouch that Gabapentin is sedating and will help with sleep, and also increases growth hormone release with sleep.

On that note I think one of these days a sleep study would be a great idea. Do you have a deviated septum or trouble breathing through your nose at night, or snore?
 
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Tanner - On the night I felt fine. My eyes dilated quite a bit, I felt very empathetic and open and friendly, I had probably the most honest and confessional conversation with my friend I ever had. I wanted to talk all night. I also did drink steadily but not excessively. From what I've heard a fairly typical MDMA experience.

I went to bed that night feeling fine. My friend whose batch it was, took it and was fine, and has remained fine.

The next day I had little appetite and felt a little whoozy but nothing to unusual for a night out. My lack of appetite remained and I found I couldn't sleep. The rest of the first week I felt out of it but also still a little 'high', my thought processes were a little fuzzy, wasn't very articulate, but I felt artificially 'good' or 'boosted'. I had little anxiety at all, less than usual.

But my skin did feel very tight, muscled and defined that week. Not on the night but over the course of the following week. 5-6 days later, is when the more severe symptoms kicked in, initially just a tingling and increased sensation in my hands, a horrible bloated stomach and horrible acid reflux like GERD. Thankfully the latter has somewhat subsided.
 
...at the time he hadn't tested it, but subsequently bought one of those testing kits and it came back as 'high MDMA content'. Which about as scientific as we could get. So yeah, your guess is as good as mine :/
 
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