love your Cat avatar, so off the hook !
Years back my Sylvester knew when I had LSD, he;d give me this look to say
"what I have told you about Astral Projecting onto my level ? Pull up."
-
OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Stimulants Maybe the Meth Has Changed?
- Thread starter G_Chem
- Start date
love your Cat avatar, so off the hook !
Years back my Sylvester knew when I had LSD, he;d give me this look to say
"what I have told you about Astral Projecting onto my level ? Pull up."
Zentropy
Greenlighter
The meth hasn't changed, your mind has.I’d like to further entertain the idea Meth in the US has changed somehow. Before I continue I hope this isn’t a repeat but I tried looking a bit to not find anything.
It appears there has been over the past 5yrs a shift in the way p2p is produced to the nitrostyrene method. Producing two impurities unique to the nitrostyrene route, N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine.
“Methamphetamine profiling data is then presented to show that nitrostyrene related profiles have been dominant in the United States for the last 3 years.” (As of 2019.)
Recent methamphetamine profiling trends: Tracking the nitrostyrene method used for P2P production
N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine have been found to be useful target compounds for tracking P2P-based methamphetamine produced using nit…www.sciencedirect.com
And some more info from another article..
“The emergence of N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine in seized MA has recently triggered the nitroalkene chemistry. The two impurities result from a Knoevenagel reaction of benzaldehyde and nitroethane to form a nitrostyrene.
Toske et al. referred to this method as a nitrostyrene method (NTS) or a nitropropene method. The catalytic activities of butylamine/cyclohexylamine influence the conversion of the P2P precursors. The catalysts react with benzaldehyde to form imine, which then reacts with the nitroalkane to form a nitrostyrene as an intermediate. The reaction mixture at this step contains nitrostyrene and extractable cyclohexylamine/butylamine with a significant reaction potential. Based on a reaction proposed by Hass et al., nitrostyrene converts to P2P in the presence of iron powder and hydrochloric acid. The extractable cyclohexylamine/butylamine can then react with P2P to form the stable N-butylamphetamine, and N-cyclohexylamphetamine elucidated in MA seizures.
Since 2015, the two impurities were detected in MA seizures collected in the USA. The identification of the two impurities has been fundamental in tracking the P2P based MA synthesized by the nitrostyrene chemistry.” (As of 2020.)
A review of the newly identified impurity profiles in methamphetamine seizures - PMC
Forensic intelligence of synthetic illicit drugs suffers a problem of continuous introduction of new synthetic methods, modification of the existing routes of manufacture, and adulterations practiced by criminal networks. Impurity profiling has been ...www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Now I couldn’t find info on what concentrations these impurities are found out and there is scant info regarding pharmacology but I did find this..
Structure-activity relationships among some d-N-alkylated amphetamines
d-N-Alkylated amphetamines were synthesized in a series up to and including d-N-butylamphetamine and potencies of these compounds were compared in (1)…
To boil down what I’m reading in this article, n-butylamphetamine was the weakest of all the substituted Amphetamines tested. Of the bunch it was the only one that didn’t increase the rate of the guinea pig atria and wasn’t very reinforcing.
But despite it not increasing atria rate like all the other Amphetamines it was 16x more potent to reduce rats milk intake compared to Amphetamine or Meth.
I know I’m extrapolating a great deal here but this impurity sounds like a great anorexic but a horrible recreational drug. Especially if we compare to the few other butyl Amphetamines known to exist like MDBU which was pretty much inactive.
Bupropion is a chloro substituted butylcathinone, an NDRI. It seems the butyl sub makes for reuptake inhibitors which don’t often play well with releasers.
So there we have evidence for psychoactive impurities that may potentially weaken the meth high, and seems to correspond with all these users complaining of changes. I don’t personally use it enough or enough different batches to yet know but felt it interesting this recent emergence of impurities matches fairly well with the timeline individuals on here have talked about.
-GC
In it's crystalline form, meth has to be at least 70% pure iirc, otherwise it won't be pure enough to maintain the crystalline matric afaik.
I've been using meth on and off for about 10 years, in very small amount and with large breaks in between, and if anything, I've noticed that meth has gotten stronger, if it's changed at all.
I'm sure you heard long time users saying the same shit when you first started "this stuff has nothing on the shit from 10-20 years ago", "this shit is garbage/cut/it doesn't even get me high anymore"... but you were geeked out of your mind, weren't you?
Meth is sufficiently cheap, addictive, and easy to make that the cartels which now control it's production and distribution in the US don't need to cut it, or fuck with it it at all. From what I understand, cutting crystal meth is another step that would provide the major cartels little benefit, aside added complexity. That being said, local markets that may be cut off from the US-Mexican general supply chain could have anything in their dope. I remember when I started, I was hanging out with a cook, and on quite a few occasions he would have real powdered lith dope(lithium), which CERTAINLY offers unique, almost hallucinogenic effects.
I’d agree with you if it weren’t for the fact I’ve used very little meth in my lifetime. I find it hard to believe that maybe 15 total lifetime doses each 5mg or under has caused me any tolerance at all. I rarely use it and when I do it’s either in a medicinal context or combined with MDMA/psychedelics.
-GC
Crispychick
Greenlighter
Your article means a lot since you obviously have so much science packed behind it. All I know is that I was a meth user for 8 years from 1994 to 02 and that meth was a good high and quality potency. I stopped using meth in 02 and switching to Adderall to keep me clean, however this past May my prescription came to a halt and I went back meth. This stuff is junk, makes me nauseous and barely keep me awake. The only good news about the junkie meth that is was sooo bad that I quit again just 2 months after that. I am done with that poison.I’d like to further entertain the idea Meth in the US has changed somehow. Before I continue I hope this isn’t a repeat but I tried looking a bit to not find anything.
It appears there has been over the past 5yrs a shift in the way p2p is produced to the nitrostyrene method. Producing two impurities unique to the nitrostyrene route, N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine.
“Methamphetamine profiling data is then presented to show that nitrostyrene related profiles have been dominant in the United States for the last 3 years.” (As of 2019.)
Recent methamphetamine profiling trends: Tracking the nitrostyrene method used for P2P production
N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine have been found to be useful target compounds for tracking P2P-based methamphetamine produced using nit…
And some more info from another article..
“The emergence of N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine in seized MA has recently triggered the nitroalkene chemistry. The two impurities result from a Knoevenagel reaction of benzaldehyde and nitroethane to form a nitrostyrene.
Toske et al. referred to this method as a nitrostyrene method (NTS) or a nitropropene method. The catalytic activities of butylamine/cyclohexylamine influence the conversion of the P2P precursors. The catalysts react with benzaldehyde to form imine, which then reacts with the nitroalkane to form a nitrostyrene as an intermediate. The reaction mixture at this step contains nitrostyrene and extractable cyclohexylamine/butylamine with a significant reaction potential. Based on a reaction proposed by Hass et al., nitrostyrene converts to P2P in the presence of iron powder and hydrochloric acid. The extractable cyclohexylamine/butylamine can then react with P2P to form the stable N-butylamphetamine, and N-cyclohexylamphetamine elucidated in MA seizures.
Since 2015, the two impurities were detected in MA seizures collected in the USA. The identification of the two impurities has been fundamental in tracking the P2P based MA synthesized by the nitrostyrene chemistry.” (As of 2020.)
A review of the newly identified impurity profiles in methamphetamine seizures - PMC
Forensic intelligence of synthetic illicit drugs suffers a problem of continuous introduction of new synthetic methods, modification of the existing routes of manufacture, and adulterations practiced by criminal networks. Impurity profiling has been ...
Now I couldn’t find info on what concentrations these impurities are found out and there is scant info regarding pharmacology but I did find this..
Structure-activity relationships among some d-N-alkylated amphetamines
d-N-Alkylated amphetamines were synthesized in a series up to and including d-N-butylamphetamine and potencies of these compounds were compared in (1)…
To boil down what I’m reading in this article, n-butylamphetamine was the weakest of all the substituted Amphetamines tested. Of the bunch it was the only one that didn’t increase the rate of the guinea pig atria and wasn’t very reinforcing.
But despite it not increasing atria rate like all the other Amphetamines it was 16x more potent to reduce rats milk intake compared to Amphetamine or Meth.
I know I’m extrapolating a great deal here but this impurity sounds like a great anorexic but a horrible recreational drug. Especially if we compare to the few other butyl Amphetamines known to exist like MDBU which was pretty much inactive.
Bupropion is a chloro substituted butylcathinone, an NDRI. It seems the butyl sub makes for reuptake inhibitors which don’t often play well with releasers.
So there we have evidence for psychoactive impurities that may potentially weaken the meth high, and seems to correspond with all these users complaining of changes. I don’t personally use it enough or enough different batches to yet know but felt it interesting this recent emergence of impurities matches fairly well with the timeline individuals on here have talked about.
-GC
sekio
Bluelight Crew
Nobody has actually provided any sort of evidence that meth is any different than it was 20 or 40 years ago.
Even meth made via P2P undergoes chiral separation & isomerization to produce the nice "ice" crystals of d-methamphetamine hcl.
also any butyl- or cyclohexyl-amphetamine produced would only be a very small amount (as butylamine/cyclohexylamine are used in catalytic amounts) and can be trivially seperated by washing the produced P2P with dilute aqueous acid.
the presence of N-butylamphetamine or N-cyclohexylamphetamine is indicative that they did basically no isolation or purification of intermediates.
the nitrostyrene reaction between benzaldehyde and nitroethane is catalysed by the 10% amine, producing phenyl-2-nitropropene.
At this point, a simple acid wash would remove any leftover amines, and notably, no N-alkylamphetamines have been formed.
Then you do a Nef reaction with iron/HCl to convert the phenyl-2- nitropropene to phenyl-2-propanone. (Note: this should wash most of the amine out)
Sometimes the P2P is distilled, or purified via formation of a complex with sodium metabisulfite (2g NaHSO3:1g NaHCO3:4mmol ketone)
Then a reductive amination with methylamine and some sort of reducing agent - this is the point where any N-alkylamphetamines are formed.
Finally, a modern innovation, is separating the D-methamphetamine as a tartaric acid salt and subjecting the L-meth to an isomerization process (high temperatures, metal catalyst) which transforms it to 50/50 D/L-meth, and the process can repeat for an additional 50% more yield.
> Now I couldn’t find info on what concentrations these impurities are found out
My bet is, they are present in trace amounts, if best - and absolute worst case they would be ~10% assuming 100% incorporation of the catalyst to the P2P. But that seems unlikely. Given that it's a forensic science journal and they don't specify amounts, I'm going to assume they are traces at best.
Also,
> powdered lith dope(lithium), which CERTAINLY offers unique, almost hallucinogenic effects.
I agree with about 90% of your post but you end on this...
Meth is meth is meth... no matter the route. At "best" you'd get overreduction to the propylhexidrine analogues...
Even meth made via P2P undergoes chiral separation & isomerization to produce the nice "ice" crystals of d-methamphetamine hcl.
also any butyl- or cyclohexyl-amphetamine produced would only be a very small amount (as butylamine/cyclohexylamine are used in catalytic amounts) and can be trivially seperated by washing the produced P2P with dilute aqueous acid.
the presence of N-butylamphetamine or N-cyclohexylamphetamine is indicative that they did basically no isolation or purification of intermediates.
the nitrostyrene reaction between benzaldehyde and nitroethane is catalysed by the 10% amine, producing phenyl-2-nitropropene.
At this point, a simple acid wash would remove any leftover amines, and notably, no N-alkylamphetamines have been formed.
Then you do a Nef reaction with iron/HCl to convert the phenyl-2- nitropropene to phenyl-2-propanone. (Note: this should wash most of the amine out)
Sometimes the P2P is distilled, or purified via formation of a complex with sodium metabisulfite (2g NaHSO3:1g NaHCO3:4mmol ketone)
Then a reductive amination with methylamine and some sort of reducing agent - this is the point where any N-alkylamphetamines are formed.
Finally, a modern innovation, is separating the D-methamphetamine as a tartaric acid salt and subjecting the L-meth to an isomerization process (high temperatures, metal catalyst) which transforms it to 50/50 D/L-meth, and the process can repeat for an additional 50% more yield.
> Now I couldn’t find info on what concentrations these impurities are found out
My bet is, they are present in trace amounts, if best - and absolute worst case they would be ~10% assuming 100% incorporation of the catalyst to the P2P. But that seems unlikely. Given that it's a forensic science journal and they don't specify amounts, I'm going to assume they are traces at best.
Also,
> powdered lith dope(lithium), which CERTAINLY offers unique, almost hallucinogenic effects.
I agree with about 90% of your post but you end on this...
Meth is meth is meth... no matter the route. At "best" you'd get overreduction to the propylhexidrine analogues...
Last edited:
“I Don’t Know That I Would Even Call it Meth Anymore”
Sam Quinones | The Atlantic | October 18, 2021
‘I Don’t Know That I Would Even Call It Meth Anymore’
Different chemically than it was a decade ago, the drug is creating a wave of severe mental illness and worsening America’s homelessness problem.