US Politics Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2021

[Xorkoth]

The fact that he used the word temptation (plus he's a white American with a neck beard) leads me to think that the killings were influenced by religion. I highly suspect he had a Christian upbringing and was raised to feel guilty for seeking out contractual sex, which he probably had little control over due to being socially dysfunctional. Perhaps in his mind, in a world without pornography or sex workers, there would be no way for him to sin... Obviously that's just speculation.

I agree, I think it's most likely a result of religion turning sex into something dirty and sinful. But as you say, that's speculation.

There is no question that this was a sex based crime. That the victims were Asian was incidental. That's just who usually provides these services, and they are the most overtly visible and easily accessible form of prostitution.

Yeah I agree, in this case. I think it was sex-based violence against women, certainly... gender had a whole lot to do with it, but the racial element was probably incidental. There is, however, a huge rise in hate crimes against Asians in America, which should be talked about. But it's not very responsible for the media to try to make this case about race, because it just muddies the waters and gives people one more reason to say "none of this stuff is about race, the media is just trying to push identity politics".

 

[SKL]

This article offered interesting insight into the killings and some of the reactions:

Interesting article, but went off on too many speculatory tangents for my taste. I don't disagree that the issue is violence against women and that that issue is deep seated. However, the writer seemed too eager to shoehorn in the usual forms of Identity politics ("straight White male," I'm surprised they didn't add "cis.") She also didn't research this case very well, because they say that the killer didn't seek treatment for sex addiction, he did. He had a stay at an inpatient treatment facility, in fact. It's almost as if the writer was in such a rush to get to her talking points that she only read headlines.

 

[SKL]

There is, however, a huge rise in hate crimes against Asians in America, which should be talked about.

There's an absolute media blackout, no pun intended, about the race of the perpetrators though. The media is even trying to spin it as White supremacy related, which is downright Orwellian "doublethink." The Black and Asian communities have had issues for decades. The current spike is almost certainly related to what's going on in the country today, either stigma or perhaps more likely just lockdown boredom and the general increase in violence that's happened for a number of reasons, police withdrawal in minority communities being a big one, since this summer. Random violence by generally young Blacks from the multigenerational urban criminal underclass (Marx's lumpenproletariat) against passersby (see: "the knockout game," which many of these attacks resemble) is an issue that comes up from time to time, and Asians make a tempting target.

 

[cduggles]

The Black and Asian communities have had issues for decades. The current spike is almost certainly related to what's going on in the country today, either stigma or perhaps more likely just lockdown boredom and the general increase in violence that's happened for a number of reasons, police withdrawal in minority communities being a big one, since this summer.

It’s true that there is an emphasis on white-on-Asian crime and that there are tensions between the African American and Asian communities.
However, violence from one community doesn’t negate violence from another, and white-on-Asian crime does exist.
You’re speculating about why the violence is happening, and I’d be interested in seeing some sources.

 

[SKL]

It’s true that there is an emphasis on white-on-Asian crime and that there are tensions between the African American and Asian communities.
However, violence from one community doesn’t negate violence from another, and white-on-Asian crime does exist.
You’re speculating about why the violence is happening, and I’d be interested in seeing some sources.

I'd be curious to see some incidents of white-on-Asian crime, and the news coverage. The news coverage often doesn't mention race, so unless you can tell outright from the name or there is a mugshot shown you may have to do some digging to find out. More often than not, though, when race isn't discussed the race is Black, because it's considered "problematic" to bring it up in those cases.

I don't have trouble believing that some of these cases are done by Whites but the overwhelming majority of the street attacks seem to have Black perps, at least which follow a certain pattern (random assault on the street, sometimes with, sometimes without derogatory comments.) Where I've seen stuff with a White perp it's usually barely violent. I'm more referring to a certain type of random assault.

As to motivation, you're right that I'm speculating, as I wasn't there and media coverage is scanty, but I'm speculating from an informed place. I used to live in the neighborhoods where this Black lumpenproletariat demographic lives, and by far the longest stretch of my career was working with that population. What is beyond debate, though, is that these tend to be Black-on-Asian—and I've made a point of casually looking into it when I see these in the news—and this fact is almost never discussed. In fact, going strictly by media coverage, one could forgive the assumption that it's mostly White people doing this stuff.

 

[Droppersneck]

I'd be curious to see some incidents of white-on-Asian crime, and the news coverage. The news coverage often doesn't mention race, so unless you can tell outright from the name or there is a mugshot shown you may have to do some digging to find out. More often than not, though, when race isn't discussed the race is Black, because it's considered "problematic" to bring it up in those cases.

I don't have trouble believing that some of these cases are done by Whites but the overwhelming majority of the street attacks seem to have Black perps, at least which follow a certain pattern (random assault on the street, sometimes with, sometimes without derogatory comments.) Where I've seen stuff with a White perp it's usually barely violent. I'm more referring to a certain type of random assault.

As to motivation, you're right that I'm speculating, as I wasn't there and media coverage is scanty, but I'm speculating from an informed place. I used to live in the neighborhoods where this Black lumpenproletariat demographic lives, and by far the longest stretch of my career was working with that population. What is beyond debate, though, is that these tend to be Black-on-Asian—and I've made a point of casually looking into it when I see these in the news—and this fact is almost never discussed. In fact, going strictly by media coverage, one could forgive the assumption that it's mostly White people doing this stuff.

Only when crime statistics work in the favor of the establishments narrative are they allowed to be taken into consideration. The FBI is so corrupted and subverted at this point, I am surprised they are even allowed to keep record of ‘problematic’ things.

 

[deficiT]

Those who support gun rights should also support drug decriminalization.

The two topics might seem different but I believe they go hand in hand. Too often people support a watered down version of what they consider to be liberty.

If I can go to the store and buy a rifle, I should be able to buy some weed or whatever else. I always found it silly that potentially deadly weapons are sold openly while people were being jailed for weed possession.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@deficiT

Does it work the other way around?

If drugs are legal, does that mean guns should be legal too?

If I can go to the store and buy a rifle, I should be able to buy some weed or whatever else.

Should there be no limit to freedom in terms of what you can buy? Nuclear weapons? Tanks? Napalm?

Both guns and drugs should be restricted.

 

[electronDegenerate]

I'm all over the place on the gun issue.
I want guns. I don't really care for other people having them....
My own sweet energy healer girlfriend honestly thinks we need them just so the concept of a police state is not on the table.
I saw something in NZ that will always stick with me. In Auckland the whole damn city seems to turn into a drunken block
party on the weekends. I saw people who were totally shit faced walk up and willingly have conversations with the cops that
were just sorta chillin about everywhere. Totally non threatening.
Doing so here seems like begging for trouble....

 

[deficiT]

@deficiT

Does it work the other way around?

If drugs are legal, does that mean guns should be legal too?



Should there be no limit to freedom in terms of what you can buy? Nuclear weapons? Tanks? Napalm?

Both guns and drugs should be restricted.

Yeah it does. I think these things can both be regulated and controlled within reason.

But prohibition of either just leads to black market sales.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@deficiT

Okay, so all weaponry and all drugs should be legal and regulated?

For example: should you be able to buy a bag of crack in a shop then go next door and buy a bag of grenades... assuming you have no history of mental illness or criminal activity?

within reason

I don't know if it is reasonable to legalize all drugs; it's certainly not reasonable to legalize all weaponry.

prohibition of either just leads to black market sales.

This applies more to drugs than guns. Most people won't buy guns on the black market. After the gun amnesty here (NZ), nobody I know owns an illegal firearm... whereas everyone smokes weed.

I'm sure the US would be a bit different since y'all are Yosemite Sam, but I still think a lot of people wouldn't seek out illegal guns. I know if I was living in the US, I would be happy buying drugs but there's no way in hell I'd ever consider buying a black market firearm.

Prohibition of firearms doesn't "just" lead to black market sales. That's a simplification. It also, demonstrably, results in less people being shot.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@electronDegenerate

I saw something in NZ that will always stick with me. In Auckland the whole damn city seems to turn into a drunken block
party on the weekends. I saw people who were totally shit faced walk up and willingly have conversations with the cops that
were just sorta chillin about everywhere. Totally non threatening.

Cops are cool here. They treat people with respect. If anything, they're too soft.

 

[electronDegenerate]

Yeah, it may contribute to the general rowdiness.
There was a huge rugby team taking up most of hostel we were staying at.
One morning a fight broke out that started right outside our door and took up the entire
floor of the building. Fuckin wild. It was a coed hostel room and we had to create a human
meat shield around these two tiny Israeli girls just so they could escape the building....

 

[deficiT]

@deficiT

Okay, so all weaponry and all drugs should be legal and regulated?

For example: should you be able to buy a bag of crack in a shop then go next door and buy a bag of grenades... assuming you have no history of mental illness or criminal activity?



I don't know if it is reasonable to legalize all drugs; it's certainly not reasonable to legalize all weaponry.



This applies more to drugs than guns. Most people won't buy guns on the black market. After the gun amnesty here (NZ), nobody I know owns an illegal firearm... whereas everyone smokes weed.

I'm sure the US would be a bit different since y'all are Yosemite Sam, but I still think a lot of people wouldn't seek out illegal guns. I know if I was living in the US, I would be happy buying drugs but there's no way in hell I'd ever consider buying a black market firearm.

Prohibition of firearms doesn't "just" lead to black market sales. That's a simplification. It also, demonstrably, results in less people being shot.

I said within logical reason... people are going to do drugs regardless, I'm not saying everything should be sold in stores, but there should be some way to regulate the drug market and provide a safe supply. It's wrong to put people in prison for substance use, and has historically been a massive failure.

Buying grenades is a ridiculous slippery slope argument, I said within reason. There should be an above ground supply of weapons, and a system that performs universal background checks.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@deficiT

I agree that people shouldn't be put in jail for using drugs. That's decriminalization though not legalization.

Buying grenades is a ridiculous slippery slope argument, I said within reason.

It's subjective though isn't it?

What is within reason for you, isn't within reason for someone else.

Perhaps some people don't think legally selling crack or heroin is reasonable.

My example (grenades) was intentionally ridiculous. The point is: you still want some weapons to be unavailable. Some people think certain drugs should be unavailable. You're lumping them together in the name of liberty. You're arguing generally against prohibition, but here you've made an exception for grenades. You (presumably) think all drugs should be legal but not all weapons. Clearly they are not the same thing.

people are going to do drugs regardless

Again, that's too simplified an argument. It's like saying people are still going to shoot people regardless of gun laws.

should be sold in stores, but... provide a safe supply

How does this work?

Drugs like crack are safely supplied, but not sold legally?

 

[electronDegenerate]

While I do not have the answers I have to agree with drug legalization based solely on the fact that drug users do not belong in our archaic punishment system based solely on their drug use. As if they didn't likely have enough issues to deal with, they have to live like second rate citizens, forgo many protections non drug users have, and are at risk of their lives being destroyed by our "justice" system.
Then they are incarcerated and some private corporation profits.....

 

[deficiT]

@deficiT

I agree that people shouldn't be put in jail for using drugs. That's decriminalization though not legalization.



It's subjective though isn't it?

What is within reason for you, isn't within reason for someone else.

Perhaps some people don't think selling crack or heroin in stores is reasonable.

My example (grenades) was intentionally ridiculous. The point is: you still want some weapons to be unavailable. Some people think certain drugs should be unavailable. You're lumping them together in the name of liberty. You're arguing generally against prohibition, but here you've made an exception for grenades. You (presumably) think all drugs should be legal but not all weapons. Clearly they are not the same thing.



Again, that's too simplified an argument. It's like saying people are still going to shoot people regardless of gun laws.



How does this work?

Drugs like crack are safely supplied, but not sold legally?

The argument about drugs and weapons are similar in some ways like I originally posted, but they are still different.

You can kill a room full of people quickly with certain weapons. You can't do that with drugs.

Yeah the argument is simple, but I never said that there isn't more to it.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@deficiT

You can kill a room full of people quickly with certain weapons.

Agreed. They are totally different things. That's why (for me) legalizing drugs doesn't mean high powered weaponry should be legal. The argument is nonsensical. If people are smoking crack, they should have less access to guns. I've personally been in totally fucked up and paranoid places in my head from all sorts of drug combinations. At those times, I should absolutely not have access to a weapon. But - hey - I'm not American and I'm happy to never have access to a weapon.

While I do not have the answers I have to agree with drug legalization based solely on the fact that drug users do not belong in our archaic punishment system based solely on their drug use. As if they didn't likely have enough issues to deal with, they have to live like second rate citizens, forgo many protections non drug users have, and are at risk of their lives being destroyed by our "justice" system. Then they are incarcerated and some private corporation profits.....

You're confusing decriminalization with legalization. The former pertains to users and the latter pertains to suppliers.

 

[electronDegenerate]

Perhaps, but what are many of the suppliers but entrepreneurial users.
The point that illegalization causes black markets is pretty solid. And when black markets form it brings all the violence and horrible shit that governments use to justify their laws.
However i see your point and I think the solution is subtle and lies somewhere in the middle of all this.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

The point that illegalization causes black markets is pretty solid.

Of course, but that also applies to: nuclear weapons, human organs, sex slaves, etc.