US Politics Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2021

[Xorkoth]

I mean... We don't ban stamp collecting.

...Yet. God damn stampers, hoarding all the stamps so us decent folk can't use 'em Smug fuckers

You both make such good arguments. This is why I have flip flopped on this issue so many times. But I will say that anybody who thinks there is a easy solution hasn't thought very hard hard about the problem.

100%, it is a complex issue that has many facets.

A couple of people have mentioned mental health in this thread as an alternative to gun control. Let's say in my hypothetical (for the sake of argument) that the US president has dictatorial power. Can you be more specific about what you'd do re: mental health?

You weren't asking me specifically, but I think the root of the problem is anger, frustration and hatred. People are watching their quality of life slowly slip away, while at the same time being asked to work harder and harder, while the "American Dream" is still being dangled like a carrot on a stick in front of them, but it's receding further and further into the distance. And there are endless narratives about why this is, many of which are designed to shift blame to other groups of people who are also being victimized, rather than at the true source, which is a corrupt kleptocratic elite class who is outright pilfering our quality of life for their own personal gain. Meanwhile these toxic narratives are creating fear and hatred against other groups, be it immigrants, muslims, black people brown people, white people, asians, women, etc.

This isn't the reason for every mass shooting, of course (see the Vegas shooter for example, a wealthy man who achieved success by this established measure. Who knows what went on there?). And mass shootings are only small fraction of gun deaths, they're just the most terrifying and puzzling. The biggest factors are the war on drugs, and domestic violence (the latter wouldn't be solved by gun control regardless, guns are just the most effective tool to kill that are available). The war on drugs has led to violent inner city cultures, which are now well-established, creating cycles of violence and crime. Frustration and helplessness create angry domestic partners who then take out those frustrations on those they love, a pattern which has played out throughout human history.

So, as a dictatorial US President, I would pass legislation to lead to a resurgence of the middle class, a narrowing of the wealth gap and the regaining of the ability for families to be able to provide all of their needs with a single wage earner, leaving one parent with the ability to be a full time parent to better raise their children to be well-adjusted individuals. I would push universal health care or at the very least, affordable health care, and create a focus on mental health. I would decriminalize or legalize all drugs, to take the means of production and distribution of drugs out of the hands of criminal organizations, and relegate drug policy to being treatment-oriented rather than punitive, leading to far less people getting caught up in a prison system that creates disturbed and violent lifelong violent criminals. If we had a society full of satisfied individuals who were generally happy with how things were going, gun violence wouldn't be such a big problem. The problem isn't that there are guns, the problem is that so many people are so frustrated and angry that society has become self-destructive, and violence in a person's upbringing begets violent people.

 

[LordOfThisWorld]

Actually you make a really good point. While these names are ultimately cultural in origin and religion can't be inferred from them, there's no denying a huge religious influence in both largely Christian western culture and with Islam in Arabic cultures.

Ultimately I'm getting really close to nit picking territory because I didn't like how "Muslim name" sounded. Because of the seeming negative inferences it makes.

If it makes you feel better "Christian name" is a real term. It used to be a very common term used the way we use the term "first name".

I dunno if Arabic has a similar term but Arabic is generally considered to be even more influenced by religion than English is so it wouldn't surprise me.

That’s what I should’ve said Arabic name.

 

[alasdairm]

None

indeed.

thank you.

alasdair

 

[TheLoveBandit]

I'm not sure why, but I can assure you I'm not being deliberately obtuse.

So, it's genetic? Just kidding. Reality is I'm delighted (any) two people in CEPS are willing to pause and recognize a communication issue instead of jumping to 'you are an idiot' territory, and instead continue to work towards understanding.

Ultimately I'm getting really close to nit picking territory because I didn't like how "Muslim name" sounded. Because of the seeming negative inferences it makes.

I assume you feel the same about the inference skin color makes, when the Colorado shooter was arrested and spawned a morning of 'white supremacy' tweets that had to be walked back when he was found to have a 'muslim name' and social media showing his ill mental health and subsequent hate for islamaphobia? Not picking a fight, just tuning in late to the convo.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

Question:

I get the left's view of 'what reason do you need auto or semi-auto rifles?' because really, unless your gov't comes after you with an army, you're really just waiting for a zombie apocalypse that isn't coming (we hope).

But does the left understand going after auto and semi-auto rifles isn't where the literal 'bang for the buck' is?

Guns used in mass shootings in the U.S. 1982-2021​

Published by Statista Research Department, Mar 23, 2021

Handguns are the most common weapon type used in mass shootings in the United States, with a total of 143 different handguns being used in 95 incidents between 1982 and March 2021. These figures are calculated from a total of 121 reported cases over this period, meaning handguns are involved in about 78 percent of mass shootings.

The involvement of semi-automatic rifles in mass shootings​

Owing to their use in several high-profile mass shootings, there has been much public discussion over suitability or necessity of assault weapons for the purpose of self-defense. While any definition of assault weapon is contentious, semi-automatic rifles are generally the main focus of debates around this issue. Since 1985 there has been a known total 47 mass shootings involving rifles, mostly semi-automatics. This figure is underreported though, as it excludes the multiple semi-automatic (and fully automatic) rifles used in the 2017 Las Vegas Strip massacre – the worst mass shooting in U.S. history, killing 58 and wounding 546. In fact, semi-automatic rifles were featured in four of the five deadliest mass shootings, being used in the Orlando nightclub massacre, Sandy Hook Elementary massacre and Texas First Baptist Church massacre.

Mass shootings and gun control​

Despite evidence of strict gun control measures reducing the frequency and severity of mass shootings in countries like Australia, citizens in the United States remain deeply divided over the issue. According to a survey about the expected impact of gun laws on the number of mass shootings, a slim majority of Americans believe that gun control measures will have little-to-no effect. Most likely, this opinion is influenced by an underlying commitment among many in the U.S. to the greater importance of protecting gun ownership rights than limiting access to firearms. This sits in sharp contrast to many other developed countries. For example, most Canadians support a ban on civilian owned firearms.

Why is the focus NOT on handguns that account for roughly 75% of the mass shootings? Perhaps the belief is auto and semi-auto rifles are an easier win, where handguns are more believable as self defense weapons? I can buy that. But is that the only reason?

 

[JessFR]

Question:

I get the left's view of 'what reason do you need auto or semi-auto rifles?' because really, unless your gov't comes after you with an army, you're really just waiting for a zombie apocalypse that isn't coming (we hope).

But does the left understand going after auto and semi-auto rifles isn't where the literal 'bang for the buck' is?

Guns used in mass shootings in the U.S. 1982-2021​

Published by Statista Research Department, Mar 23, 2021


Why is the focus NOT on handguns that account for roughly 75% of the mass shootings? Perhaps the belief is auto and semi-auto rifles are an easier win, where handguns are more believable as self defense weapons? I can buy that. But is that the only reason?

We all know the reason.
It's a soft target. Ar-15's and AK's are big and scary looking, or as the gun nuts call them "evil black rifles".
And well, they have a point. They're targeted because they're the easiest category to get people to agree to ban.

I unless I'm very mistaken, the article is wrong.. or at least highly misleading. The '17 las vegas shooting didn't have automatic rifles either. It had the same semi-auto rifles as the other shootings. It's just the shooter was using a bump stock device to make it fire kinda like it were automatic. Admittedly this is getting into nitpicky area. But it's probably still a relevant distinction.

 

[SKL]

Why is the focus NOT on handguns that account for roughly 75% of the mass shootings? Perhaps the belief is auto and semi-auto rifles are an easier win, where handguns are more believable as self defense weapons? I can buy that. But is that the only reason?

For one thing, the handgun "mass shootings" are typically Black men doing gang related shit. Nobody cares about that. That makes for below-the-fold copy at best, more typically something more like "another weekend in Chicago" or Detroit or Baltimore. The cops call it "NHI," no humans involved. Occasionally they hit a little kid or someone otherwise sympathetic (generally because they don't train with their weapons, and thus just let loose on a corner or a basketball court) and the media will cover it but generally nobody gives a shit other than you'll hear aggregate figures of how many people were shot over the weekend come Monday. If even that.

Incidentally, those guns are, generally speaking, purchased illegally. That kind of violence is unsexy and doesn't lend itself to striking images of military-looking weapons, nor to putative legislative quick fixes like "assault weapons" bans. Those are almost always not even about violence per se but about needling, and cracking down on, a certain sector of the population that is disdained by White liberals even more than Black people (and believe me, White liberals profoundly disdain Black people)—Bubba and his friends from flyover country.

 

[cduggles]

Black men doing gang related shit.

Do you have a source for this? I tried searching for “black men doing gang related shit” and I didn’t find much on “handgun mass shootings”.

 

[SKL]

Do you have a source for this? I tried searching for “black men doing gang related shit” and I didn’t find much on “handgun mass shootings”.

Part of the problem with the latter is it's (deliberately) a bit of a "gotcha question." There is no agreed-upon definition of a "mass shooting." The incidents which fit the profile of a large number of victims, done with more or less inscrutable motives, i.e. not a familicide or related to other criminal activity, and with edgy White male perp with Asperger's type characteristics, etc. get a lot more play but really are few and far between.

In cses which do not fit this profile, of which there were more, not less, in 2020, they just weren't newsworthy as I was saying, the weapon, and indeed in the vast majority of firearm homicides, is a handgun and the typical setting is urban, often in the context of gang violence, and Black. The discrepancies in rates of death by gun violence in these communities are huge. Whites are substantially less likely to die of gun violence (and in fact, when they do, it's usually suicide, whereas in Blacks, it's usually homicide), and Asians, recent shooting notwithstanding, almost never do. "Hispanics" were less liable to die by gun than Whites; I would be curious to see this conducted by a less nebulous designation. Blacks are a sore outlier. Much of it is due to the development of a multigenerational criminal underclass, a lumpenproletariat as I mentioned above in this thread in a slightly different context.

As I was saying, nobody really cares about them, so they can, and do, shoot each other all day in large numbers and it doesn't make the news. Or much of an impact in policies. In fact, these incidents are by and large occurring in jurisdictions which already have rather restrictive gun laws. They are also the kind of incident, being that they are typically committed with guns that were illegal anyway, in which gun control measures almost by definition won't work. After all, for this type of armed criminal, you're allowed to concealed carry* whenever you want, until you get caught.

(*Just as a fun anecdote, a LE guy I know says that you can't use a holster if you're going strapped when UC. They'll think you're a cop. Apparently all the gangbangers "Mexican carry" and risk shooting their balls off because it projects a macho image or something.)

 

[cduggles]

It was your term. I believe “mass murderer” is employed by the FBI to describe someone who kills four or more people at a single location.
So that’s a no on a source. Gut feeling?

 

[SKL]

It was your term.

In fairness it was TLB's term. And I was using it being a bit of a smart-ass, ready to say there was no definition.

I believe “mass murderer” is employed by the FBI to describe someone who kills four or more people at a single location.

True, and some people use a similar definition of "mass shooting", sometimes counting how many people were shot, sometimes how many were killed, sometimes varying the number somewhat. My point is it's not a terribly useful term especially as now it is laden with a lot of baggage and highly specific imagery (and, to my point, inaccurate imagery, if we're just using the n>3 definition.)

So that’s a no on a source. Gut feeling?

Here's one I linked already that I think is at least close to what you are looking for.

 

[cduggles]

I admittedly skimmed it in a questionable state, but I’m seeing that the victims were black. Shooter race wasn’t mentioned.

 

[SKL]

I’m seeing that the victims were black. Shooter race wasn’t mentioned.

You can't be serious.

 

[cduggles]

I could. I definitely could. I could also not.
And how is this all gang related? Didn’t they mention domestic situations?

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

Hey cduggles I couldn't help but notice this conv I hope you guys don't think I'm butting in.

I follow a Youtube news outlet that is connected with the CPD and covers violent crime in Chicago. It's pretty depressing stuff but it drills down cases in Chitown on a regular basis, I'm not saying it's applicible in all cities.

There is a very alarming black on black violent crime going down here and it's quite sad. 99% of it is gun violence, a LOT of it is gang/drug related.

Here's a link to it: Bloody Chicago

 

[cduggles]

Thanks @Cheshire_Kat. Your information is always interesting and welcome.

 

[SKL]

I could. I definitely could. I could also not.
And how is this all gang related? Didn’t they mention domestic situations?

"Because Peterson and her colleagues maintain so precise a focus, their data excludes many high-casualty shootings, including those stemming from domestic violence or community conflicts. The latter accounts for a majority of high-casualty shootings in predominantly Black neighborhoods across the country."

By "community conflicts" they mean what I'm referring to as gang violence.

 

[JessFR]

(*Just as a fun anecdote, a LE guy I know says that you can't use a holster if you're going strapped when UC. They'll think you're a cop. Apparently all the gangbangers "Mexican carry" and risk shooting their balls off because it projects a macho image or something.)

That sounds exactly retarded enough to be true. As well as being a perfect example of natural selection in action.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

That's called a "plaxico", lol

It's funny, I just typed "plaxico burress" into a search engine and this came up in the side bar, sourced to Wikipedia:

Plaxico Antonio Burress is a former American football wide receiver who played 12 seasons in the National Football League. He played college football at Michigan State, and was drafted by the Pittsburgh Steelers eighth overall in the 2000 NFL Draft. He also played for the New York Giants and the New York Jets, and caught the game-winning touchdown in Super Bowl XLII as the Giants beat the then-undefeated New England Patriots. He is renowned worldwide for the durability of his scrotum, which is able to withstand gunfire up to 30 mm.

The real wiki article for him does not contain that wonderful final sentence tho

 

[cduggles]

Hey cduggles I couldn't help but notice this conv I hope you guys don't think I'm butting in.

I follow a Youtube news outlet that is connected with the CPD and covers violent crime in Chicago. It's pretty depressing stuff but it drills down cases in Chitown on a regular basis, I'm not saying it's applicible in all cities.

There is a very alarming black on black violent crime going down here and it's quite sad. 99% of it is gun violence, a LOT of it is gang/drug related.

Here's a link to it: Bloody Chicago

Hi CK, I watched the whole video.
It was interesting that race wasn’t mentioned (tbc, I’m not making an assertion about race not being a factor, just noticing the lack of information in the program).
I was interested and horrified by the statistics, although I found the narrative about COVID to be unsupported. (Again not making an assertion that the impact of the lockdown on homicides doesn’t exist, I just found the ideas put forward to not be well supported by the narrator.)
Also, not much about gang violence is mentioned. I was trying to look out for this information because I’m not really well versed on it and I would like to hear more.
I would easily believe that race is a factor with regard to shooters and victims, that gang violence is also an important factor, etc., so I don’t mean to discount the connections, but I’m just mentioning it’s not described with any detail in the video.
However, I was intrigued enough to watch the whole thing, so thank you so much for posting it. I learned a lot about Chicago homicide rates and the areas they are occurring. It’s important information.